Which is more realistic? Shotokan or Kyokushin?

[Charlitos1988]

If you're an elite competitor which prepares you better for a street confrontation?

Shotokan:
- Punches to the face
- No maximum force allowed
- No kick to the legs
- Extremely elusive footwork

Kyokushin:
- No face punches
- MAXIMUM force allowed
- Kicks to all the body
- Footwork consists on staying stand


Thinking about only on the SPORT rules they have.

 

[TigerArm]

Kind of a toss up IMO. Shotokan point fighters are probably generally gonna be ill-prepared for hard contact/street agression, but the defense first attitude is obviously self defense oriented. Look at how often Machida actually gets hit as an example.

Kyokushin guys are tough ass motherfuckers but i think standing in front of each other trading body blows with no footwork and a low gaurd isn't the smartest strategy on the street.

Train both? :icon_chee

 

[Broncoi]

hey man you have to know that karate was practical in FEUDAL JAPAN, even now i think its a good base for kids because of the discipline and structure, not the practical side, if you want realistic karate you want karate daido-juku

 

[Inquisitus]

Kyokushin if only because of the required toughness for full contact.

Otherwise, both sport rule-sets are equally impractical for street defense

 

[maxm2000]

Kyokushin. It's not even close.

 

[Human Bass]

Kyokushin. It's not even close.

Yup. As much I appreciate shotokan, Kyokushin wins this case.

 

[yankeesfan0130**]

actually there is leg kicks in shotokan and punches to the face in kyokushin there just not allowed in competitions. also shotokan is designed for the street and self defense (same thing for kyokushin but more emphasis on tournaments)most shotokan tequniques are illegal in mma which is why there is not many shotokan guys in mma. kyokushin also has many illegal moves. some competition/point fighting based dojos dont teach these tequniques but you have to find out if yours does.


in the end it matters on the dojo.

 

[mcjon77]

Maybe you guys know about some kind of badass Shotokan school/tournament that does full contact, but all of the schools I know, and certainly all of the Shotokan tournaments I know of, were NO contact or EXTREMELY light contact point sparring. I studied Shotokan for about a year with one of the best instructors in the midwest, and full contact was never a possibility.

If I wanted to be a hardcore fighter, unless the school was run by someone like Machida, I would definitely pick Kyokushin over Shotokan.

 

[ChachiKiller]

You specifically mentioned reality. The only thing that perpares you for street confrontations are street confrontations. Meaning, a novice will lose him/herself in a street conflict. Both styles have enough techniques and training to do a job against a person of not extraordinary physical skill.

Both styles do not do reality training as a general rule and most people are not prepared to pull off some move taught to seriously ruin someone. Reality training has to create a sense of fear for the participant to engage at a more realistic level of intensity. Real dojos are not a place to create that fear, they are a place to get rid of it. So a moderately trained karate participant will improve their individual chances. Most initial conflicts will draw better than average response ending in a few punches and perhaps a body kick. However, a well trained person against a street person should not me an issue. It is not magic, just training of seeing attacks come at you from faster people slowed down to average peoson speed.

If it is in a onene street conflict, that may be enough. If the aggressor gets a hold of a smaller average practitioner in either style, they are prob hosed. Even if you are attacked and defend aggressively, the senior ranks will not be impressed about what you did to someone. They will only be happy that you were not hurt.

However, most adult karateka are peaceful people and do not get jollies from hitting people. It is a physical activity done in an environment of respect that keeps most people there. Usually not too many jerks in a karate class. They are either not attracted to it and if they are, they are weeded out and will find themselves not fitting in.

Most Shotokan people (in the schools and federation in which I train) do not even know who Machida is and most do not watch the UFC. They don't care about this. I want people to know so there was not an interest that we would get involved if we could. They practice for a different reason.

Karate has been watered down because of a few primary reasons. First is that it focused on selling to kids (my dojo has a min age of 12), law suits (nothing most of you are doing can't be compared to old school karate training - sorry but true), people do not want pain and they are lazier.

People who are either one side or the other (kyokushin or shotokan is the best) in this conflict do not know anything.

 

[mjw1]

I'd take full contact/continuous fighting over point fighting any day....

 

[chaospfa]

It depends on what you want to do on the street. Do you want to win street fights or defend yourself. Shotokan has a heavy emphasis on defense, seen by the higher guard and footwork, which makes it better suited for defending oneself. Kyukushin is better if you want to win street fights. Some shotokan schools do iron shirt and other forms of body hardening which kinda makes it equal to kyukushin in terms of ability to go full contact, shotokan also has blocks against leg kicks. Both arts are equal it depends on your instructer and if your school focuses on self defence. All things being equal my vote goes to shotokan, because elite level shotokan (also other blackbelts) are expected to go full contact in competitions.

 

[rotten apple]

i did a form of shotokan for 8 years as a kid. fucking hated it. but glad i did it because it made boxing a lot easier, as far as footwork and punching goes. straight punches that is. ive never practiced kyokushin, but from your list it sounds more practical.

it also depends on the sensei. my dads sensei (shotokan) taught street survival techniques and put a smaller emphasis on kata. some sensei's teach vice versa.

it doesn't really matter how many techniques you learn though, because theres a huge difference between knowing the mechanics of a certain technique and applying it in a live situation. the latter takes a lot of practice.

 

[LEGS MAHONEY]

If you're an elite competitor which prepares you better for a street confrontation?

Shotokan:
- Punches to the face
- No maximum force allowed
- No kick to the legs
- Extremely elusive footwork

Kyokushin:
- No face punches
- MAXIMUM force allowed
- Kicks to all the body
- Footwork consists on staying stand


Thinking about only on the SPORT rules they have.

.KK trains punches to the face

.Some shotokan allow leg kicks

. both have "elusive" foot work or tai sabaki in other words

with that being said id rather do KK karate because its easier to find a good dojo that will train you as karate should be trained.

 

[Irn Bru Freak]

Kyokushin is an offshoot of Shotokan, created in 1964

Oyama trained under Funakoshi (who brought karate from Okinawa to Japan) and in the 1950s moved to full contact competitions and away from JKA Karate.

Realisation is not found in sparring or any sport contest, full contact or not. However as has been mentioned being able to take a hit and understand how to deliver high impact strikes against targets is an asset.

The key in your question is not, what sport is better (which is opinion really) but what is realistic.

Realism in karate comes from the katas. Not learning them for a competiton, but leanring how to break them down and drill them like a thai boxer would a round kick. ie continously and against resistence. Main Kyokushin katas are:

Shotokan derived Considering shotokan has about 27 odd kata in total it's interesting to see the core group of kata (that funakoshi taught in 1920s Japan) used as a basis for this style and not the other ones that were added later pre/pst ww2.

• 5 Pinan katas
• Kanku Dai
• Sushiho (Gojushiho)
• Bassai-dai
• Naihanchi

Goju dervied. Brought into Kyokushin after split from Shotokan.

• Gekisai Dai
• Gekisai Sho
• Tensho
• Sanchin
• Saifa
• Seienchin
• Seipai
• Yantsu
• Tsuki no kata

Since the kata's are shared from shotokan and goju styles of karate and you're looking for a realistic it's my view that you should look for a class, either shotokan or Kyokushin that teaches the bunkai properly, with non compaint partners and repeated in some form of drill set, instead of focusing on what is better basic training\sparring methodology is.

ie someting like this: Naihanchi is found in both styles. What you want is someone who can show you bunkai like the below.

YouTube - Naihanchi bunkai / Effective self-defence applications

And most importantly, a class like this, or princeples similar to these:

YouTube - www.martialartstv.com Instructional Kata Based Sparring

 

[Seppuku Sam]

^ very nice breakdown of the two styles in question IBF. While there are lots of technical merit to comparing the Kata of each and thier origin, I dont believe it too helpful in answering the TS original question: Which style would better prepare one for the street. The whole Bunkai thing is TOTAL BULLSHIT! If you see a school that epmhasizes Bunkai....you should run as fast as you can. Seriously.
The answer to the TS's question is derived from comparing the kumite of each style. Fighting vs fighting, yes?
Its difficult to generalize all Kyokushin schools vs all Shotokan schools. We all know that there are great schools and there are not so great schools. Having said that the Kyokushin camp in general has demonstrated time and time again that they are without peer in the Karate Kumite world. They fight very hard, and they break bats with thier bare shins.

 

[ChachiKiller]

I really wish only people with direct experience would speak out and not people who have a Youtube reference point.

There was a divergence from JKA and Funakoshi so Mas could demonstrate karate is a tough fighting art. Funakoshi was a very humble man and hated demonstrations of how tough people could be. He emphasized karate for character and not sport. He would not be happy with the current general state of karate.

Shotokan came from a couple styles. One was for people of small stature who needed to rely on movement and precise striking. The other was about pure power.

People are all jazzed about what they see from KK where they stand infront of each other and punch for its brutality. If I am trained to stand in-front of someone while I fight and exchange blows, that seems like a poor strategy in a street confrontation because the idea of a weapon, friends and mental state of the assailant is not known. How you train is how you would most likely fight. I don't know but it seems like there would be a proclivity to stand infront of someone.

The question is street. I would rather have skills of movement rather than exchanging in that situation. Simply, one was built to emphasize sport and the other self-defense. If I want to fight in a sport that lends itself to the strengths of KK, then that would be my choice. I AM NOT SAYING THAT KK TRAINED CAN NOT BE EFFECTIVE AT A STREET ENCOUNTER. I AM BASING IT OFF OF LIMITING EXPOSURE. AS A STRATEGY MOVEMENT IS SMARTER. ANYTHING ELSE IS A MOVIE.

 

[Martialarts101]

Maybe you guys know about some kind of badass Shotokan school/tournament that does full contact, but all of the schools I know, and certainly all of the Shotokan tournaments I know of, were NO contact or EXTREMELY light contact point sparring. I studied Shotokan for about a year with one of the best instructors in the midwest, and full contact was never a possibility.

If I wanted to be a hardcore fighter, unless the school was run by someone like Machida, I would definitely pick Kyokushin over Shotokan.

It got pretty rough when i still did tournaments (abour 10 years ago, Holland).
Guys with bloody faces, broken arm etc. Perhaps its changed now.

Also have seen some streetfights of shotokan guys, they did alright/good.
I know like kyokushin more though.

 

[Irn Bru Freak]

The whole Bunkai thing is TOTAL BULLSHIT! If you see a school that epmhasizes Bunkai....you should run as fast as you can.

So High impact strike, grappling, close range strikes, throws & takedowns, ground fighting, chokes & strangles, arm locks, leg & ankle locks, neck wrenches, finger locks, wrist locks are all useless in a street fight?

The answer to the TS's question is derived from comparing the kumite of each style. Fighting vs fighting, yes?

Kumite is not fighting. It's 'playing'.

In Kumite:
You start at a distance of 6-8 feet
You're both martial artists, with common attack methods.
You've only get one opponent.
There are rules that prohibit certain strikes
You're wearing protective equipment on your hands

Bunkai, done properly teaches:
Dealing with opponents 2 inches from your face.
Deals with attaches from people unskilled in fighting. Which is most of the planet.
Teaches strategies to deal with multiple attackers
There are no rules, neck strikes, groin strikes, neck breaks, gouges are all valid techniques
Teaches you to use your hands, feet, knees without any protective equipment.

Kumite is sport.
Kata is fighting.

 

[Irn Bru Freak]

I really wish only people with direct experience would speak out and not people who have a Youtube reference point.

What was incorrect?

He emphasized karate for character and not sport. He would not be happy with the current general state of karate.

I agree.

Shotokan came from a couple styles. One was for people of small stature who needed to rely on movement and precise striking. The other was about pure power.

My I ask what source that comes from please?

I studied in the North American Karate Federation under Kazumi Tabata. He is an absolute wrecking machine. He emphasized the power element and our trainings were vicious (if you like the KK approach to conditioning treatment where they fight and pound eachother, we did that with two or three versus one and no pads). I now mostly train with Nago Matsuyama who emphasized the defensive footwork aspect and speed.

All of which should be congratulated. This is similar to our outlook

The question is street. I would rather have skills of movement rather than exchanging in that situation. Simply, one was built to emphasize sport and the other self-defense. If I want to fight in a sport that lends itself to the strengths of KK, then that would be my choice. I AM NOT SAYING THAT KK TRAINED CAN NOT BE EFFECTIVE AT A STREET ENCOUNTER. I AM BASING IT OFF OF LIMITING EXPOSURE. AS A STRATEGY MOVEMENT IS SMARTER. ANYTHING ELSE IS A MOVIE.

My view is that rigourous application of kata bunkai with impact skills learning from actually hitting something instead of air is the key to an effective street defence ability, rather than what style. Karate styles is like handwriting, three people can write the same thing and all look different. Understanding what is written is what is important, not what it looks like.

 

[ChachiKiller]

I am not going to quote your quotes.

I don't necessarily disagree too much with anything you said so I was not aiming anything at your comments. Someone said something about breaking bats with shins so it is therefore better.

Bunkai are always interpreted differently. Bunkai is to deepen knowledge and provide reason to kata so movement can have meaning, be more precise and have a tradition. It is not self-defense training. The techniques used in bunkai are heavily based on your opponent punching you karate style. People don't always throw stepping punches so you can apply. I especially like things like in Empi where you grab your opponent, turn spin-jump throw their imaginary body like a rag doll and end up in knife-hand to block a bo-staff. I might use that next time I am accosted by a guy wielding a bo-staff. Bunkai should be taught but it is not the solution to modern day street confrontation.

I was not looking for praise when I spoke of my lineage. I was demonstrating the different emphasis and disparity in a single style. I was providing context for people who were about to hear others speak incorrectly and you turn them further off with bunkai.

With regards to the styles, you should read more. If you want to take a ethereal position, you will need historical context.