Which is more realistic? Shotokan or Kyokushin?

What are the rule differences? I'm largely ignorant on the subject so what was it that changed to cause less well rounded footwork etc. ?


a lot started to specialized in the knockdown ruleset. the rules haven't changed apart from a few details like no grabbing but what he means is that a lot of the successful fighters these days focus entirely on that rule set. So because of no head punches but body shot they focus even more on body conditioning and fight like tanks going into each other rather than trying to move around to avoid hits.
It's a different approach and style. The Russians are especially good at that.




Tayski pretty much hit the nail on the head. There isn't really a difference in terms of rules (at least small exceptions like no grabbing anymore) but a complete turnaround in the approach to it.

Watch any knockdown karate footage of today universally among all the KK organizations you'll see basically two guys with very little movement, spamming punches/kicks until someone let's up or makes a mistake - compare that to the 80's-90's where you saw lots of movement, angles (offensively/defensively), great focus on technical skill (most of the guys at least I think of with the best technique all originate from the 80's-90's period).

Of course you have a few guys today that are the exception like Darren Stringer, Valeri Dimitrov, Nesterenko et al --- but none of them move imo as well as guys from the 80's-90's like for example M.Thompson, Masuda, Kazumi etc etc. I think that's more to do with the state of knockdown karate now because they are all equally talented imho but they are in a sea of guys who sit & hit.

The only exception you can make an argument for is Tsukamoto but people tend to forget he is a 90's knockdown fighter (he started KK in the 90's & trained alongside Kenji Yamaki, Kazumi, Midori etc) and that his instructor was Hiroshige (arguably KK's best instructor) - so his mentality is that 90's approach hence why he's soo technical & focuses on movement.

The Russians are definitely the best at it but I feel the technique/movement gets devolved some bit by that approach whereas size/conditioning/toughness takes the forefront.
 
Well that was a special time. Ma doesnt have the largest talent pool. Personally I see alot of karate in mma, especially in guys tou wouldnt call karate guys like Rory MacDonald.

No, I see a lot of boxing in Rory MacDonald. I think certain styles of boxing and certain styles of Karate have a very similar style that people don't want to talk about.
 
Yes. Point fighting karate of today is very one dimensional and unwatchable. Rafael Aghayev lost to an italian champion in one final which was the only impressive one I've seen in modern times. And that was still labelled the world "bouncing contest".

MMA will slowly but surely erase all talented prospects concidering of entering point fighting karate. Before, Karate was the thing, and had stronger performers. Some look sloppy and fat these days.

I mean just take a look at this horrific display of shotokan point fighting from Japan:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fATo5CDbUtY
 
As a Shotokan karateka who switched to Kyokushin karate, I can tell you that even though Shotokan is good for speed and in/out movements which can be very useful in a street situation, nothing prepares you more than something full contact.

What you are mixing up here is Kyokushin Karate and Knockdown tournaments. In Knockdown tournaments there are no gloves or other protections which means punches can only be allowed below the neck to avoid dramatic injuries to the face.
Now the majority of Kyokushin fighters who compete indeed compete in knockdown tournaments. What needs to be taken into account though is that also quite a lot of Kyokushin fighters will also fight in Clicker type tournaments similar to Shotokan point scoring tournaments with gloves and punches to the face but controlled strikes and with continuous scoring (instead of resetting after every point like in Shotokan), so basically training and competing in both the knockdown and the point scoring rule sets (that's my case for example), while some others fight in Kickboxing and therefore again training and competing with punches to the head.

Still there are of course more Kyokushin fighters in Knockdown tournaments than any other format of competition as this is the traditional kyokushin kumite.

Just to go back on topic, Kyokushin karate is full contact so you learn to throw powerful strikes in order to KO the opponent while also conditioning your body and mind to take hits full contact. That's a big difference to throwing techniques that hit but don't have power. I know that first hand as when I first started in kyokushin and sparred, I tended to have good footwork and speed against my sparring partners but my techniques when they landed did almost nothing to them damage-wise while I got hammered with powerful punches to the body and low kicks.

If a street situation would come up I feel much more confident defending myself thanks to the Kyokushin training that I had rather than with the Shotokan training, that's for sure.

thank you man.
 
a lot started to specialized in the knockdown ruleset. the rules haven't changed apart from a few details like no grabbing but what he means is that a lot of the successful fighters these days focus entirely on that rule set. So because of no head punches but body shot they focus even more on body conditioning and fight like tanks going into each other rather than trying to move around to avoid hits.
It's a different approach and style. The Russians are especially good at that.



that was fun to watch. why don't they use a cross to the body and sit down on it? the tall guy threw some pretty weird downward punches.. he could've done much more damage. i liked the short guy.
 
that was fun to watch. why don't they use a cross to the body and sit down on it? the tall guy threw some pretty weird downward punches.. he could've done much more damage. i liked the short guy.

As a much smaller and less competent knockdown guy, I'd say I avoid sitting down on the cross because:

1) Catching an elbow with bare knuckles hurts like hell, and it's more likely to happen when the guy knows you can ONLY body punch.

2) It makes a followup right low or high kick much slower if you need to unweight. A lot of the time the cross isn't finishing the combination, it's thrown out there to get them to bring their left hand across or roll away, then you blast the same side with the right leg.

I do sit down on my cross when i'm SURE i can land it or I plan on chasing it with a left kick (hard cross -> some sort of left kick). When I'm throwing the left kick it's usually an inside leg kick, high round kick, or mikatzukigeri (uh, like ball of the foot to liver)

EDIT: as far as that fight goes, I think you're right, it would've served hoogeveen better to keep his straight punches higher (beat up opponent's arms and chest) and gone down to the midsection with hooks. I think he got caught a lot b/c he was punching downwards too much.
 
thanks for the explanation. it's an interesting style, as someone who struggles with getting punched to the body i wonder what kind of body strenghtening do you guys do?

the small guy in the video had solid body hooks, he almost knocked down the tall guy with them it looked like. yeah it looked like the small guy had a much better tactic to beat him.
 
That video was surprisingly fun to watch.

I'm not a karate guy, but my background started in TSD and TKD. The short fellow through several full power bareknuckle punches to the tall guy's elbows and didn't care. That's why I don't use wraps in boxing, and people look at me weird. The more I wear gloves, the weaker my wrists and fists get. I have to do knuckle pushups and bareknuckle punching just so I don't lazily lose all technique and conditioning.
 
thanks for the explanation. it's an interesting style, as someone who struggles with getting punched to the body i wonder what kind of body strenghtening do you guys do?

the small guy in the video had solid body hooks, he almost knocked down the tall guy with them it looked like. yeah it looked like the small guy had a much better tactic to beat him.

Yeah, it's kind of funny, shorter is actually in a way better for body punching, b/c it means it's easy to reach the floating ribs/solar plexus with straights, if you're tall you've gotta throw shovel hooks basically. Awful for kicks though, cause geometry.

From what I understand we're pretty softcore as far as body conditioning goes. It's pretty much drills that involve putting your hands up and taking body hooks or front kicks. Starts out soft and person getting hit indicates to go harder harder if they can take it. Sometimes you're supposed to tell a story while it's happening or w/e, something to distract/make you breath.

We do some ..."pad work" but rather than padwork a lot of the time we drill technique against another person standing there. Easier to do if you're not getting your brain knocked around, and gets some conditioning.

Sometimes there's situps with impact, like people running over you while you lie down, or sit up and get hit halfway up, etc.

We don't do much drilling of shots to places like ribs; dunno if there's a lot you can do to toughen up there, it's pretty much all solar plexus/liver/bladder shots.

I don't think any of it is rocket science, just more time spent barehanded and concerned about taking body punches.
 
That video was surprisingly fun to watch.

I'm not a karate guy, but my background started in TSD and TKD. The short fellow through several full power bareknuckle punches to the tall guy's elbows and didn't care. That's why I don't use wraps in boxing, and people look at me weird. The more I wear gloves, the weaker my wrists and fists get. I have to do knuckle pushups and bareknuckle punching just so I don't lazily lose all technique and conditioning.

Yeah, I could've been clearer...knuckle to elbow is OK. Catching your thumb partway through a cross (how I usually seem to hit the elbow) is TERRIBLE though.

Although most guys don't seem to have as much of an issue as me, maybe I've got shitty hand formation.
 
No, I see a lot of boxing in Rory MacDonald. I think certain styles of boxing and certain styles of Karate have a very similar style that people don't want to talk about.

His stance is super wide for boxing. Also his use of the front kicks and other karate style kicks etc. This is mma and I dont think brining together commonalities in karate and boxing has been called a bad thing. McGregor is another example.
 
His stance is super wide for boxing. Also his use of the front kicks and other karate style kicks etc. This is mma and I dont think brining together commonalities in karate and boxing has been called a bad thing. McGregor is another example.

Interestingly enough, Conor McGregor was an amateur boxing champion, so I think he really does speak for your argument.
 
Could you clarify?

You were saying about mixing karate techniques with boxing techniques, and McGregor has a boxing base, was an amateur champion in his youth before he went into MMA hence the great footwork and punches
 
You were saying about mixing karate techniques with boxing techniques, and McGregor has a boxing base, was an amateur champion in his youth before he went into MMA hence the great footwork and punches

Ah ic. Sorry bit slow atm lol
 
thanks for the explanation. it's an interesting style, as someone who struggles with getting punched to the body i wonder what kind of body strenghtening do you guys do?
Impact training.
Start with weak punches and slowly increase power and repetitions.
It wont happen overnight.





 
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Is it only in Japan that JKA Shotokan kumite is fought bare fisted/No gloves? I saw the JKA Gidhin World championships in Thailand 2011 and the europeab championships recently and they wore small gloves!! The all Japan championships don't, and not when the Gishin Funakoshi tournament was held in Japan in 2014....
 
I hold a sandan in Shotokan, and I endorse this pov.

Machida's dad said it best, Shotokan is exercise, when they want to practice fighting they do Machida Karate do.

I have trained with 3 different Shotokan groups here in central Florida, and have yet to have any of them do jiyu kumite while I was there. The only yudansha we did any with were the ones we invited to our dojo. And, their fighting was one dimensional and uninspired. It was evident they did not do much of it in their dojos. Yet here they were, black belts in the system. :(

The one redeeming quality of the system is it has the capacity to be a good blunt force trauma delivery system. And around here, they mostly suck at that part. Cavorting about in pajamas aka LARPing would be far too accurate an appraisal, sad to say. It is a far cry from how they train it in Japan.

Seconding.

Did Shotokan for several years in Canada. It's been great for introducing me to martial arts, but :

- we focused more on kata, and rarely even point-sparred (I think this is common in most dojos). A lot of schools focus on kata, and spend a majority of their time on it to the exclusion of everything else.
- no physical conditioning, which I think is crucial for striking arts. Most of the techniques were practiced by hitting the air, and that does not teach you how to properly hit hard. You do not harden you limbs/body the way you would if you do something like muay thai.
- even when you do spar, it is for points (i.e. not a continuous fight) and IMO more importantly, the permitted move set is extremely limited (straight punch, back fist, front kick, round kick, hook kick). Any thing you might see in a real encounter e.g. hook punch is not allowed.

I have since read more about real "traditional" karate and am aware that the traditional methods (e.g. Okinawa) are a lot more practical, but I do not think you will get that in N America.
 
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