WAR ROOM LOUNGE V25: MJ vs Prince

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Spoiler

EROTIC CITAYYYYYYYAAAAaaaah

 

[Limbo Pete]

 

[Prokofievian]

Seriously, Prince is one of the greatest guitarists of all time? Get a grip. He could lay down a mean solo, but let's be serious here.

 

[brothir]

Seriously, Prince is one of the greatest guitarists of all time? Get a grip. He could lay down a mean solo, but let's be serious here.

First time I've heard that. "Best guitarist" is a sort of cancerous debate topic, largely because it's almost unavoidably a disguised popularity contest, which is what I think is happening when people nominate him.

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

"Best guitarist" is a sort of cancerous debate topic,

Three ways to look at it.

• Most influential
• Most technically proficient
• Most innovative

Who values what?

 

[Prokofievian]

First time I've heard that. "Best guitarist" is a sort of cancerous debate topic, largely because it's almost unavoidably a disguised popularity contest, which is what I think is happening when people nominate him.

Yep, and the shred heads eventually come in and ruin it with something that invariably ends up at Holdsworth. But here's the thing: every name on that torrid path the most ornate and unlistenable guitar virtuosity is a better guitarist than Prince. None of them are better composers. I don't know why people can't just leave it at that.

I've like..never heard anyone say that Beethoven is the greatest pianist of all time, for example.

 

[brothir]

Three ways to look at it.

• Most influential
• Most technically proficient
• Most innovative

Who values what?

Ehh, it can be stretched far beyond that. The easiest one you missed is literally "the one I like the most" - in which case the answer to "who is the best guitarist" is literally "it's subjective". That's not a wrong way to look at it necessarily, but it renders the issue vacuous. And "influential" and "innovative" has a potentially massive cross section.

Technique is the most potentially (but rarely) measurable on and individual by individual basis, but the question then is how you measure it: is it a single pattern and then a matter of who manages to play it the fastest? Or should it be multiple patterns, covering a range of techniques - and where do you stop? Should you use the discography of a candidate as an additional (or exclusive) basis, then judged in terms of technical ability by a panel? Who is that panel, how do you select the parts they're supposed to evaluate and what guidelines are there?

All of this can be stretched to the point of impossibility to actually get to a concrete evaluation, or tightened to the point where it's devoid of actual content. And it will never, ever be decided in any way that can satisfy even >20 % of the people who are interested in the issue.

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

Ehh, it can be stretched far beyond that. The easiest one you missed is literally "the one I like the most"

I didn't miss that. It's just not an option. If the optics are that narrow then sit the fuck down and shut the fuck up.

EDIT: Not you personally. Just conceptually.

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

Technique is the most potentially (but rarely) measurable on and individual by individual basis, but the question then is how you measure it:

Can one person play something with practice and another can't?

 

[brothir]

Yep, and the shred heads eventually come in and ruin it with something that invariably ends up at Holdsworth. But here's the thing: every name on that torrid path the most ornate and unlistenable guitar virtuosity is a better guitarist than Prince. None of them are better composers. I don't know why people can't just leave it at that.

I've like..never heard anyone say that Beethoven is the greatest pianist of all time, for example.

I am that shredhead so thanks for the elbow in the face. Don't know of the top of my head who Holdsworth is. In terms of composition, one interesting observation is that Buckethead, long time candidate for best shredder, has an enormous discography of relatively acclaimed musically (not just technically, but there's that too) gripping stuff. And he's just getting better imo: this is 2 or 3 years old for instance.



Great stuff.

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

All of this can be stretched to the point of impossibility to actually get to a concrete evaluation, or tightened to the point where it's devoid of actual content. And it will never, ever be decided in any way that can satisfy even >20 % of the people who are interested in the issue.

Yeah, there's no true answer. But there's good answers and shitty answers. You keep refining the comparisons and the creme rises to the top.

 

[brothir]

Can one person play something with practice and another can't?

To a point, I think so. As in, two people can each naturally play something the other can never play with any amount of practice, when you get to a high enough level. But it's never been examined systematically as far as I know so that's just my guess.

 

[brothir]

Yeah, there's no true answer. But there's good answers and shitty answers. You keep refining the comparisons and the creme rises to the top.

More like blood will rise to the top, because people will fucking kill each other over this if you let them argue about it long enough.

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

I am that shredhead so thanks for the elbow in the face. Don't know of the top of my head who Holdsworth is. In terms of composition, one interesting observation is that Buckethead, long time candidate for best shredder, has an enormous discography of relatively acclaimed musically (not just technically, but there's that too) gripping stuff. And he's just getting better imo: this is 2 or 3 years old for instance.



Great stuff.

Brothir, I've seen a lifetime of live music. Top 5-10 has to be Praxis in NYC around 2000 with Buckethead leading the charge. 800 fucking degrees in the venue but worth every second, including a generous encore.

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

To a point, I think so. As in, two people can each naturally play something the other can never play with any amount of practice, when you get to a high enough level. But it's never been examined systematically as far as I know so that's just my guess.

To me that's proficiency. Or maybe talent. Like when it comes to visual art, I say that none can produce what Dali did, but Dali could produce whatever anyone else could.

 

[Prokofievian]

I am that shredhead so thanks for the elbow in the face. Don't know of the top of my head who Holdsworth is. In terms of composition, one interesting observation is that Buckethead, long time candidate for best shredder, has an enormous discography of relatively acclaimed musically (not just technically, but there's that too) gripping stuff. And he's just getting better imo: this is 2 or 3 years old for instance.



Great stuff.

Holdsworth is the guy who all the shred head icons talk about as being ''the guy.'' If you listen to any interview with John Petrucci about his influences, his name comes up. Personally I think it's mostly garbage, but he was absolutely brilliant and had a very interesting take on music theory. I'd describe it as ''prokofievian'' in that it's not exactly tonal, but not atonal either. Instead of keys, and modulating between them, think about like....a super key.

 

[brothir]

Holdsworth is the guy who all the shred head icons talk about as being ''the guy.'' If you listen to any interview with John Petrucci about his influences, his name comes up. Personally I think it's mostly garbage, but he was absolutely brilliant and had a very interesting take on music theory. I'd describe it as ''prokofievian'' in that it's not exactly tonal, but not atonal either. Instead of keys, and modulating between them, think about like....a super key.

Sounds pretty good to me. Definitely hear where Petrucci got a lot of stuff from. Impressive technique for the time period, but I don't think he'd hold up to what's propped up since in shred.

 

[Captain Davis]

Agreed. Prince is half white though, so it doesn’t count.

Well, Michael Jackson ended up totally white, so...

 

[TheComebackKid]

Agreed. Prince is half white though, so it doesn’t count.

Prince is 100% Israelite. Prince's parents...