Traditional Gracie stacking guard pass...why?

I do a single underhook smash pass all the time, but I don't idiotically grab the bicep with my free hand like Rorion does in that picture. I get a tight grip on the pants and smash his thigh to the mat. As long as I have that grip there's no triangle risk. Then I can pass in either direction, go around the leg that I'm stacking, or slide my knee over the leg that I'm smashing to the ground.

Interesting reading these guys' opinions from back in 2006.
 
Yeah, kind of interesting how strong the feeling were - funny, because its just a technique, everyone can take it or leave it.

You see it from time to time in MMA, even at the UFC level, typically co-ordinated with ground and pound ... I suspect it works better there because its easier to keep your arm from being pulled, and because the GnP makes it easier to keep your posture.

Its not a bad thing to start beginners with in no-gi, because its simple and teaches them a number of principles. Its the same reason judo instructors often start with o goshi (the most basic hip throw), despite the fact o goshi is almost never seen in competition.
 
I have recently used this pass on blue belts. Do it right and you won't get triangled. It is a lot more complicated than that terrible series of photos posted earlier. I can think of like 9 details involved in not messing this pass up.
 
Maybe I can add some insight on this move. I was taught this pass in 2004 as part of the army combatives program.
I believe that this pass is 1. basic 2. a lead in to better techniques later 3. a part of a self defense program for fighting, not BJJ against BJJ.
Therefore controlling the arm is essential to not get punched. Sure you can get arm bared, oma plata, triangled. But imo this was set up for someone fighting against an untrained opponent.
I also believe that it is taught in series to help you understand. In level 1 combatives you dont learn the triangle choke, but you do learn how to pass the guard in this way. But in level 1 you are told to get your head up and stack the opponent quickly. Then in level 2 you learn the triangle choke. So if your level 1 and have bad technique then you get triangle choked...
There are tons of moves in Combatives that are like that. If you do the level 1 technique correctly you will moslty be safe, but on the other hand if you have bad technique you will get reversed or submitted with a level 2 move.
I never took "Gracie Combatives" or the online thing but I imagine and hear its pretty much the same thing the Military is doing.
Ive also heard a story while I was stationed in Hawaii. A guy who trained at the Gracie school said that alot of guys were arguing that this pass is crap. Dont quote me on this but I believe he said Relson passed everyone one of thier guards safely with this pass. So.. if that story is true then.... I guess it depends on how well you do it.
As for Stoics picture, how old is that picture? and if he is teaching GJJ for self defense then ofcourse he can be triangled but if your training someone to fight an untrained fighter why worry about a triangle choke, be worried about strikes. Also what if there was a split second only between him sitting up and stacking the guy??
When I teach it I go slow as hell at first too so people understand then, you have them drill until they get faster and better at it. They could have taken those pics while he was doing it very slowly and explaining.
 
When I was in Korea I had a soldier come into the BJJ academy where I trained, and she said that she wanted to learn BJJ to supplement her combatives training, and so she could do better at army combatives competitions. One of the things she said to me was that "the guard pass that you learn in combatives, when you do that pass, you're putting yourself into a triangle." It sounds like she was talking about this one.

By the way I don't think it matters how quickly you're trying to do this pass, as soon as you reach backward to open the legs anyone who knows what he's doing is going to put you in a triangle.

I can imagine it works quite well against people who don't know how to do a triangle choke, though.
 
redaxe said:
When I was in Korea I had a soldier come into the BJJ academy where I trained, and she said that she wanted to learn BJJ to supplement her combatives training, and so she could do better at army combatives competitions. One of the things she said to me was that "the guard pass that you learn in combatives, when you do that pass, you're putting yourself into a triangle." It sounds like she was talking about this one.

By the way I don't think it matters how quickly you're trying to do this pass, as soon as you reach backward to open the legs anyone who knows what he's doing is going to put you in a triangle.

I can imagine it works quite well against people who don't know how to do a triangle choke, though.
Click to expand...

This!!!
Some dude tried this on me in no gi at a tournament not to long ago.... He didn't make it to the next round Lol.
 
redaxe said:
When I was in Korea I had a soldier come into the BJJ academy where I trained, and she said that she wanted to learn BJJ to supplement her combatives training, and so she could do better at army combatives competitions. One of the things she said to me was that "the guard pass that you learn in combatives, when you do that pass, you're putting yourself into a triangle." It sounds like she was talking about this one.

By the way I don't think it matters how quickly you're trying to do this pass, as soon as you reach backward to open the legs anyone who knows what he's doing is going to put you in a triangle.

I can imagine it works quite well against people who don't know how to do a triangle choke, though.
Click to expand...

Well, its not exactly my favorite pass, but I don't think its quite as bad as that either. In terms of no-gi, you don't reach back unless you have good, upright posture and your elbow tucked in tight ... if they're getting the triangle on you from there then you're letting your posture break. Most of the time the reason it fails when done with good posture is because your opponent adjusts for a different angle (ie attacks from the side), and you have to give up the reach back to defend the counter-attack.

I try it every once in awhile against advanced belts, and though I don't often get the pass, its very rare that I get triangled from it. Its possible that I'd both get more passes and get triangled more if I didn't keep my posture completely upright, but I see it as kind of an opportunistic pass (ie your opponent made a mistake) rather than one you aim for, and so its not worth giving up your posture for.

With the gi I think its riskier, because its easier for your opponent to both get control of your arm, and to break your posture.
 
georgejjr said:
Well, its not exactly my favorite pass, but I don't think its quite as bad as that either. In terms of no-gi, you don't reach back unless you have good, upright posture and your elbow tucked in tight ... if they're getting the triangle on you from there then you're letting your posture break. Most of the time the reason it fails when done with good posture is because your opponent adjusts for a different angle (ie attacks from the side), and you have to give up the reach back to defend the counter-attack.

I try it every once in awhile against advanced belts, and though I don't often get the pass, its very rare that I get triangled from it. Its possible that I'd both get more passes and get triangled more if I didn't keep my posture completely upright, but I see it as kind of an opportunistic pass (ie your opponent made a mistake) rather than one you aim for, and so its not worth giving up your posture for.

With the gi I think its riskier, because its easier for your opponent to both get control of your arm, and to break your posture.
Click to expand...

That's the key. Go back and look at the picture of Rorion demonstrating it. His arm is extended and his hand on the bicep. That's not good posture or tucking his elbow in tight. It's triangle bait.
 
I use a pass pretty close to the basic one most of the time, and guard passing is one of the strongest parts of my game.
 
crackbaby420 said:
why all the bitchin? this pass works for sure if you keep your chest opened up and good pressure with the stack, if u are good at this pass then the guy underneath wont even be able to move, u will be in complete control and no way he could move his hips to setup the triangle

i think it's a legit pass
Click to expand...

I'm confused by this technique too.

Even if the pressure is there to block the hips, the guy on bottom has his right arm free, which he can use to stiff-arm his right knee, blocking the stack (this is actually how our school initially sets the triangle up -- stiff arm the knee so your opponent can't stack causing you to loose the 90 degree angle between your leg and torso, letting you change the angle of your hips on your own terms). Once the stack is blocked, the reverse triangle and omo are right there.
 
dataws6 said:
Maybe I can add some insight on this move. I was taught this pass in 2004 as part of the army combatives program.
I believe that this pass is 1. basic 2. a lead in to better techniques later 3. a part of a self defense program for fighting, not BJJ against BJJ.
Therefore controlling the arm is essential to not get punched. Sure you can get arm bared, oma plata, triangled. But imo this was set up for someone fighting against an untrained opponent.
I also believe that it is taught in series to help you understand. In level 1 combatives you dont learn the triangle choke, but you do learn how to pass the guard in this way. But in level 1 you are told to get your head up and stack the opponent quickly. Then in level 2 you learn the triangle choke. So if your level 1 and have bad technique then you get triangle choked...
There are tons of moves in Combatives that are like that. If you do the level 1 technique correctly you will moslty be safe, but on the other hand if you have bad technique you will get reversed or submitted with a level 2 move.
I never took "Gracie Combatives" or the online thing but I imagine and hear its pretty much the same thing the Military is doing.
Ive also heard a story while I was stationed in Hawaii. A guy who trained at the Gracie school said that alot of guys were arguing that this pass is crap. Dont quote me on this but I believe he said Relson passed everyone one of thier guards safely with this pass. So.. if that story is true then.... I guess it depends on how well you do it.
As for Stoics picture, how old is that picture? and if he is teaching GJJ for self defense then ofcourse he can be triangled but if your training someone to fight an untrained fighter why worry about a triangle choke, be worried about strikes. Also what if there was a split second only between him sitting up and stacking the guy??
When I teach it I go slow as hell at first too so people understand then, you have them drill until they get faster and better at it. They could have taken those pics while he was doing it very slowly and explaining.
Click to expand...

Turning your face towards his now undefended right arm so he can eye gouge you is good self defense?
 
My instuctor taught it to me a few years ago. It wasn't something he really liked to use, but he said Rickson was able to pass his gaurd at will using the technique. He didn't spend a lot of time on it and I never really used it in practice.

I'd like to revisit it just to check it out. Does anyone have a good instuctional video?
 
i haven't seen it, but for some reason i thought the joe morea passing dvd guard covered this break kinda (not sure about the whole hand on bicep thing)
 
VanDamme said:
That being said, my instuctor who's of Gracie lineage really REALLY prefers this pass, and some of the Gracies, notably Royler, still pass the guard this way, and hes yet to be triangled.
Click to expand...

Wait, are you kidding? I'm not even a huge fan of 10th Planet, but Eddie Bravo triangled Royler Gracie in probably one of the more famous ADCC matches of all-time (for better or worse).

edit: wow; this is a zombie thread alright
 
I don't really use this pass because I don't train in a gi, but the double underhook pass is my go to, and it sounds very similar to this one. I just posture up, post my arms in their ribs, post a knee behind their butt while stepping my other leg back (this creates space), then slide both hands under and through their legs, gable grip, stack, and pass to the side. One of my most successful passes since i'm big.
 
BallerBrawler27 said:
Wait, are you kidding? I'm not even a huge fan of 10th Planet, but Eddie Bravo triangled Royler Gracie in probably one of the more famous ADCC matches of all-time (for better or worse).

edit: wow; this is a zombie thread alright
Click to expand...

had that even happened yet when this thread was first made?! ahahahaha
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Latest posts

Forum statistics

Threads
1,237,053
Messages
55,463,738
Members
174,785
Latest member
JoyceOuthw

Share this page

Back
Top