Traditional Gracie stacking guard pass...why?

2 things.
I think he intended this move for GJJ, meaning your fighting someone that is ignorant to BJJ/GJJ etc.
the second point is that people would learn techniques and then challenge the Gracies. Is he is giving himself an opening here? (that was the speculation).
Maybe when Helio/Rorion were teaching GJJ they never intended it to be used on other GJJ guys. More of a street ground fighting 101.
 
Greasemonk said:
Have you ever tried the pass? Have you ever been taught it the right way? If you havn't then quit judging things you've only seen pictures of
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Tried this pass?

Probably when I first started. But then again I also used rush in for doubles with my head down too. Those days are so far behind me that I even have trouble visualizing myself doing it. Fundamental errors like these were impressed early to avoid.

Have I been taught the right way? YEAH. And I told you how to do it. AFTER YOU OPEN THE GUARD, and by pinning the bottom leg down negating the triangle, armlock, and omoplata.

And once again - PERSONAL EXPERIENCE goes a long way. Torrance guys used to try this shit when visiting bhjjc all the time. It is sad to see blue belts get caught by white belts over and over and over as they try this same stupid pass. But it's funny to do be the one applying the submission~

Like I said - enjoy your archaic bullshit move. Do it to each other all night long while naked - I don't care. Heck, apply leaches instead of going to the doctor. Go crank start your model T Ford on your way to telegraph station. But everyone can see the obvious flaws that are apparent to anyone with more than a few months experience. It makes about as much sense as giving someone an armbar so you can stack your way to a pass. It's stupid, reckless and someone with skill is gonna tap you for your ignorance.

Fundamental rule from white belt to black belt: Inside someone's guard you want both arms in or both arms out if at all possible. Anything else invites unneccessary danger.
 
I'm with Stoic, albeit less vehement. I'm sure a black/brown belt could pull this pass off against me all day with safety. But could a white/blue? Doubt it. You're giving me an arm, and I don't know why you would want to do that. My instructor could start off with me having a fully extended arm bar on him and still thrash me silly, no doubt. That doesn't mean I'd want to end up in that position.
 
Stoic1 said:
I refute it. It sucks. I have said why. End of story.

If you continue to think that you can keep your elbow bent and that arm out of danger while it is availible to BOTH of my arms please continue to do so. There is a whole group of people who still believe the earth is flat and that the war in Iraq was a good idea. It doesn't make them right just because there is a group of them.

As for your invitation to try it out on you - sure. Enter middleweight purple at a tournament and make sure you try that pass. I'll even let you have the takedown. A lot easier to submit someone in the first few seconds than work the takedown, improve the position, and then actually have to force the submission. It's a lot easier when they are given to you.
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stoic,
the thing that surprises me about your 'purple belt' claim (and im not saying youre not a purple belt), but i can honestly say that you have somehow missed a huge aspect of BJJ.

along your bjj path, you seemed to have never realized that every single move in BJJ has a counter. much like physics: each action has an equal or greater reaction... the same is true in BJJ. pulling the 'protected elbow' out with both your hands could work for you (you must be extremely strong), but this might not work for the vast majority of people. each and every single open guard pass has at least one technique to counter the pass. again, this is something you apparently have not seemed to grasp yet.

there are no absolutes in BJJ. this pass has proved itself time and time again... but yes, in theory, it has its flaws: JUST LIKE EVERY OTHER BJJ MOVE! its that simple man. for you to continue arguing that, and i quote, 'i refuse it, it sucks, end of story..' is a joke.

again, dont mean to flame... but come on man, this is BJJ 101 here. if i have time this weekend, ill put together some clips of this move working at very high levels of BJJ.
 
hey-

your not controlling the left arm so he doesn't punch you, it's so he can't grab his ankle to lock up, also the trick is to get down low AND keep your head up, NOTICE the grip on the lapel is key, ALONG with keeping your right elbow tucked, then the stacking in a sliding motion. it works great. and the more you do it the easier it gets. your pics showcase terribly- and easy with the swears and dis on gracie JJ cuz i think your going overboard here and need to get out the house and train instead of being a baby and whining about basic BJJ. get your head right
 
Gotta go with the last 2 posts on this.

If you see it done properly by a good black belt, you can see why it's perfectly effective. Secure the leg high onto your left shoulder, using the left hand grab around to his left collar with thumb upward preferably, keeping your head up and your right elbow tucked, then keeping your hips tight work around his leg to your left while keeping the collar secured. Voila! You're around his right leg into side mount.

What's so hard about that? I'm surprised at the disagreement over this basic technique.
 
The problem is that little right hand. It is quite vulnerable. And hiking that leg up on the shoulder? Easier said than done.

pulling the 'protected elbow' out with both your hands could work for you (you must be extremely strong)
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If you think you can keep that arm 'bent' and protected while I have 2 hands free to do with it what I please you are missing an important part of physics and math: 2 > 1. I don't have to be strong. I just need to make sure you aren't 2x as strong as me.

And as you try to hike that leg up - pffft. I can stop it any number of ways. But the easiest will just be using my leg strength against your 1 arm trying to dig in there. Again: 2 > 1.

Like I have said for 3 pages. This is a shit pass. Use something else that doesn't involve opening yourself for at least 3 submissions. In the same way we have evolved from drilling holes into peoples heads and using leaches - we have developed safer and more effective passing methods.
 
Actually, in Gracie Intermediate Vol. 2 Attacks and Reversals From Guard, he teaches the triangle, armbar and a sweep from this exact pass. I deleted the first vid because it sucked so bad. However, I believe that he says it's for self-defense application when he shows the pass.
 
I did appreciate Stoic's line "Crank start your model T Ford on your way to telegraph station."
 
Andre00 said:
2 things.
I think he intended this move for GJJ, meaning your fighting someone that is ignorant to BJJ/GJJ etc.
the second point is that people would learn techniques and then challenge the Gracies. Is he is giving himself an opening here? (that was the speculation).
Maybe when Helio/Rorion were teaching GJJ they never intended it to be used on other GJJ guys. More of a street ground fighting 101.
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Umm... Do you really think that in a self defence situation against an unskilled opponent you would even have to work this hard to pas their guard? Will an unskilled opponent even try to hold guard?

I did train at an affiliated gracie academy for a while, and was taught the equivelent to this pass (but not holding the arm, holding the lapel instead and keeping your elbow in). It can work, but I don't see the reason to take the risk. I never try this pass anymore without pinning one of the legs.

Oh, and by the way, the pictures that Stoic posted... wow, that really looks bad. That is a horrible example of a flawed pass.
 
While I don't understand some of the, ahem, energy expended in making the point, I think the crucial difference in what stoic is saying is that this is an okay way of "passing the guard" but not a good way to "open the guard."

It's funny how "passing the guard" is treated as one thing, when there are at least two main components.

That said, if you are anticipating the triangle--and the fact that the guy's guard has to open up in order to attack with it--then I think you can get away with this one--or some of the more sensible variations on it.

Full disclosure: I train at a Gracie Barra school and I've never seen anybody try this pass. Standing guard passes are the first ones taught.
 
Wow, i use this pass all the time, its a very strong pass where you have strong controls over your opponent. Actually a version i do sometimes is a little modified where once i get both arms out of the guard (beware of getting collar choked at this point) i wrap my arms tight around there thighs and grip my hands, pull the bum up toward me, stack, change grip to collar and skirt and pass to side/knee ride.

All i can say is if this pass doesnt work for you, in its original or modded form, you arent being tight and methodical and doing it properly.

Edit: Just checked the pictures in the thread and see that the argument is about the guard breaking portion of the pass by Rorion? Yeah looks like triangle bait to me. I use the kneew in but, right hand gi grip over sternum and left hand on the pants with left elbow to break the leg down, works EVERY time.
 
I Agree 100% with stoic. This tehnique sucks.
 
It also depends on the rules, in the instance of the Rorion triangle, we did a similar pass in judo but you cross grabbed the lapel and then bent the opponent along with the weight, when i came into BJJ i was always getting triangled with that pass... But in judo rules with the lapel grip and the bent opponent along with the free arm around the leg and cross grabbing the lapel too, well that's a half Daki age position (1 leg trapped instead of 2) and that allows you to lift for ippon (i had a traditional teacher stuck in the 70s rules) easily and without the option for escape (1 leg trapped).

Now i can reckon that in GJJ tournaments with slams allowed, a triangle where uke has cross lapel grips, a good posture, a leg trapped and the opponent stacked, its a recipe for a very very bad slam. In BJJ tournaments without slamming of course the one doing the triangle has the advantage, in judo no one has the advantage.

Today as we are using new judo rules and we roll newaza for the submission while taking into account the pinning, i use a stacking pass like people are mentioning with a tight elbow grabbing cloth, Works well. I rarely get triangled anymore when trying to pass.
 
necrothreadmancy!

i like this pass, i was taught to reach under him and grab his belt with the other arm rather than leave it pinning his hip/leg for a potential triangle. i usually don't go to this pass immediately off the guard break either, normally i transition to this pass if i initially attempt the over under pass and the opponent blocks me - move to the other side and you already have the gracie gift pass all set up.
 
Stoic1 said:


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why all the bitchin? this pass works for sure if you keep your chest opened up and good pressure with the stack, if u are good at this pass then the guy underneath wont even be able to move, u will be in complete control and no way he could move his hips to setup the triangle

i think it's a legit pass
 
i can def see noobs at this pass getting triangled left and right and the be like "ahhhh this pass sucks"
 
it has nothing to do with "noobs" there are just better options. I have seen alot of Rener and Ryron's matches and i have not seem them use this pass. IIRC no accomplished black belt uses this pass. Does this pass work? Yes if you are much better than your oppoent, but the margin of error is very small. As i said before, there are better options than the old pass.
 
Ghost Dog said:
stoic,
the thing that surprises me about your 'purple belt' claim (and im not saying youre not a purple belt), but i can honestly say that you have somehow missed a huge aspect of BJJ.

along your bjj path, you seemed to have never realized that every single move in BJJ has a counter. much like physics: each action has an equal or greater reaction... the same is true in BJJ. pulling the 'protected elbow' out with both your hands could work for you (you must be extremely strong), but this might not work for the vast majority of people. each and every single open guard pass has at least one technique to counter the pass. again, this is something you apparently have not seemed to grasp yet.

there are no absolutes in BJJ. this pass has proved itself time and time again... but yes, in theory, it has its flaws: JUST LIKE EVERY OTHER BJJ MOVE! its that simple man. for you to continue arguing that, and i quote, 'i refuse it, it sucks, end of story..' is a joke.

again, dont mean to flame... but come on man, this is BJJ 101 here. if i have time this weekend, ill put together some clips of this move working at very high levels of BJJ.
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its been over 4 years. have you found these clips yet?
 
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