Traditional Gracie stacking guard pass...why?

[2om30]

Relson adds a crucial detail to this pass which is tucking in the elbow. One of our Brown belts swears by this pass. If done right it works.

 

[Bama Zulu]

I don't see why people have a problem with it. If you tuck your elbow in and keep the other leg pinned you can not get triangled, unless you are a horrible moron. The pass works fine.

 

[colinm]

the pics that stoic posted looked like a god awful guard pass. however, i use a variation of that pass where you tuck your right elbow as well as control the lower lapel with your right hand, keep good posture, and grab the lapel instead of the bicep with your left hand.

 

[Zankou]

For what it's worth, this pass isn't taught at the Machados place I train, and I've never seen anyone so much as try it. I think it's gone full circle now, such that if I saw someone trying it I would be so surprised that it might actually work.

The passes I've been taught are all controlling the legs passes, jumping from one side to the other. Either driving the knee over, or controlling the legs to jump to one side or the other. Some of the stronger guys will do the double smash pass.

 

[sambo fighter]

I posture up and pull the guy into my lap a little by clinching around his leg. I also use this as a triangle escape. Its one of my best moves. I have a very high percentage on this. It has worked on purples and browns as well as newbies.

 

[fozzit]

You guys suck.. I use this pass to open guards and expect the triangle attempt... I take the risk and cant ever remember being caught with anything.... simple and pretty effective...

 

[Chris Cook]

we use it to teach people balance when stacking / passing
im kind of freakish when it comes to being stacked. weird flexibility i guess. i can sit there for a long time, then as soon as i feel a little bit of off balance from the top person i flip their ass. helps people learn their balance and leverage points

 

[triso]

LOL, at first I thought everyone was talking about the Leg on shoulder pass, and I was thinking, I use that pass all the time and never get triangled, then I saw Stoic's pic, and was like oh shit, that would get you triangled immediately.

Oh yea, and LOL@ a student of Rolls figuring out the triangle. That one made my morning.

I have nothing productive to say on this thread.

 

[DMcKayBJJ]

I agree that it's still an effective pass if you keep your elbow tucked in. It's taught at Rickson's school still as one option.

johil...At Rickson's, is it taught as the FIRST guard pass for beginners (like at Rorion's)? If so, is that because it is considered the BEST option for beginners for actually passing? Or is it taught so beginners can learn the principles of stacking, protecting your arms while in guard, learning the basic principles behind a triangle, etc.?

triso...I'm sure you have something to contribute. What pass were you thinking we were talking about?

everybody else (especially those who say this pass works well for you)...what are your common COUNTERS/DEFENSES when someone else is trying to use the pass on YOU? Do you fight to break down his posture to get the triangle (e.g. pull his head down with your free hand)? Do you go for the sweep I mentioned earlier? Do you make space under his left elbow with your free hand and fight to slip your right knee back under his arm to regain full guard?

also, everybody who likes the pass admits that you have to tuck the right elbow tight against the opponent's thigh. But how critical is it to you to HOLD THE BICEP?

any other thoughts?

 

[Sherdog_Mutt]

Once again, there are only 2 things preventing a triangle when you're using this pass: keeping your elbow tucked in (for the arm inside the guard) and good posture. For many people, this is hard to pull off on a guy with a good guard.

When someone tries this pass against me, I immediately set off working to eliminate the only 2 things preventing me from triangling him. I like to grab the guy's arm that's inside my guard while sitting up (slightly on my side) as much as I can and then yanking it out (extending the arm and forcing the elbow away from the body). Usually, this also has the effect of disrupting the guy's posture. Once I've cleared these 2 obstacles, I shoot my legs for a triangle and finish.

I want to add that my school does not teach this pass but we have a lot of former Gracie Academy students who attempt this pass from time to time. We teach variants of it (alluded to by Stoic1) where the bottom leg is somehow trapped or pinned to prevent the triangle. I believe that this pass can be effective if your technique is absolutely spot on. However, it still seems like a risky way to pass for me especially when there are many other passes that do not have as great a risk of the triangle.

As for the origins of the triangle, it is an old judo technique. However, according to several accounts, it was first introduced/incorporated into BJJ in the 1970's by a Rolls Gracie student who discovered the technique while browsing an old judo book. He then taught the technique to Rolls Gracie and Rolls' other students. They started using it in competitions and other BJJ schools quickly caught onto it and began developing more complex triangle setups and combinations.

 

[jsbjjs]

Let us take a look at its absolute ignorance:

haha, we call that one the "self-triangle", it's about as dumb as Coleman knocking himself out.

 

[jsbjjs]

Once again, there are only 2 things preventing a triangle when you're using this pass: keeping your elbow tucked in (for the arm inside the guard) and good posture. For many people, this is hard to pull off on a guy with a good guard.

if it doesn't work on a good guard why practice/teach/learn it, why not spend that time learning a valuable working pass?

 

[Stoic1]

EXACTLY. the thing is with rorions technique (and ive never thought id say this), but its not good. if you see picture #2, he is extending his arm out... basically completely exposing his right arm to an omo plata setup or even the infamous triangle. relson teaches this technique as well, but he keeps his right elbow close to the ground, and very tight against your right thigh. therefore, it takes away an omoplata or triangle setup.

stoic, i have no idea why youre so against this move (especially if the elbow is tucked in). it works time and time and time again.

Some of you guys have skulls so thick I wonder if there is any room for your brain.

The reason I am against this technique has been illustrated. With both pictures and words.

But what I am reading now is that it is 'okay' to do if you keep your elbow bent.

NEWSFLASH: NO IT ISN'T.

First: The main problem is that I have BOTH my arms free and availible. I raise my arm and loop and I now have your 'bent' arm with both of my hands. Your arm isn't going to be bent very long. If at all.

Second: You dive your hand back there into my knee. Dumb move. You think that is just going to magically pop open my legs? It isn't. Most people have a pretty strong guard once they are past a couple on months in training. Even with proper hip positioning and a twist you are still going to have a lot of trouble opening those legs. Every moment you spend digging, twisting, and trying to force my leg up on your shoulder is time I spend crossing your other arm across my body and shifting my hips into triangle position.

Third: You may think posture might save you when your bent elbow doesn't. It won't. Because most people, again with a little training, know that they can POP THOSE HIPS up into the opponent no matter how good his posture is. If you have one arm in and one arm out you have a serious problem. Even if the triangle isn't locked tight instantly I can slowly work it into something tighter. Grab the shin. Grab the back of the head. Turn my body to get a better angle.


Now, really there is no excuse for using this kind of technique unless you are screwing around with some white belt. Putting your head in the jaws of an alligator is dumb. Just dumb. If you are going to wrestle that alligator get in a better position, like his back, and lift his top jaw. Same mentality with the Gracie Gift. No need to present your head like a piece of meat to get him to open his mouth.

Again if you want to stack and pass OPEN THE GUARD FIRST! And instead of reaching under with one arm you should either A) Reach under with BOTH arms and go under thier hips, or B) use your 'bent' arm and straighten it between your own legs as you straddle thier bottom leg.

By the way I had great success with B last night. Against other purple belts. Without exposing myself to either the triangle, the armlock, or the omoplata. All of which are possible with that shitty Gracie Gift pass some of you are advocating.

 

[triso]

It just goes against everything I learned so far about the proper way to pass the guard.

- His posture is not back, its hunched over.
- His right arm is not tucked tight to his body, and putting pressure down on the left leg.
- Again, he is leaning over, not keeping his back straight and head up.

It just doesn't make sense to pass this way IMO, when you have a much more valid and safer Leg on Shoulder pass right there.

 

[Ghost Dog]

Some of you guys have skulls so thick I wonder if there is any room for your brain.

The reason I am against this technique has been illustrated. With both pictures and words.

But what I am reading now is that it is 'okay' to do if you keep your elbow bent.

NEWSFLASH: NO IT ISN'T.

First: The main problem is that I have BOTH my arms free and availible. I raise my arm and loop and I now have your 'bent' arm with both of my hands. Your arm isn't going to be bent very long. If at all.

Second: You dive your hand back there into my knee. Dumb move. You think that is just going to magically pop open my legs? It isn't. Most people have a pretty strong guard once they are past a couple on months in training. Even with proper hip positioning and a twist you are still going to have a lot of trouble opening those legs. Every moment you spend digging, twisting, and trying to force my leg up on your shoulder is time I spend crossing your other arm across my body and shifting my hips into triangle position.

Third: You may think posture might save you when your bent elbow doesn't. It won't. Because most people, again with a little training, know that they can POP THOSE HIPS up into the opponent no matter how good his posture is. If you have one arm in and one arm out you have a serious problem. Even if the triangle isn't locked tight instantly I can slowly work it into something tighter. Grab the shin. Grab the back of the head. Turn my body to get a better angle.


Now, really there is no excuse for using this kind of technique unless you are screwing around with some white belt. Putting your head in the jaws of an alligator is dumb. Just dumb. If you are going to wrestle that alligator get in a better position, like his back, and lift his top jaw. Same mentality with the Gracie Gift. No need to present your head like a piece of meat to get him to open his mouth.

Again if you want to stack and pass OPEN THE GUARD FIRST! And instead of reaching under with one arm you should either A) Reach under with BOTH arms and go under thier hips, or B) use your 'bent' arm and straighten it between your own legs as you straddle thier bottom leg.

By the way I had great success with B last night. Against other purple belts. Without exposing myself to either the triangle, the armlock, or the omoplata. All of which are possible with that shitty Gracie Gift pass some of you are advocating.

stoic,
good response and in theory, i can see where youre coming from. but your "Some of you guys have skulls so thick I wonder if there is any room for your brain" is just completely uncalled for. yes, you could pull that elbow out with both hands, but it is a lot harder then one would think. i would really like to see you try that on me.

also, again, this technique has been tested over and over again by relsons students in several tournaments, as well as relson himself. he really likes this pass. so apparently, you sir should be awared your BJJ red and black belt, since youve figured it all out. i dont mean to flame stoic... but for you to refute this pass is rather 'thick skulled' yourself.

 

[Stoic1]

I refute it. It sucks. I have said why. End of story.

If you continue to think that you can keep your elbow bent and that arm out of danger while it is availible to BOTH of my arms please continue to do so. There is a whole group of people who still believe the earth is flat and that the war in Iraq was a good idea. It doesn't make them right just because there is a group of them.

As for your invitation to try it out on you - sure. Enter middleweight purple at a tournament and make sure you try that pass. I'll even let you have the takedown. A lot easier to submit someone in the first few seconds than work the takedown, improve the position, and then actually have to force the submission. It's a lot easier when they are given to you.

 

[Pine]

I always thought that Rorion released these dodgy techniques in order to set his students up for easier wins. I'm no reliable source, though it does seem like a decent idea if you're shrewd enough.

 

[triso]

I would imagine that even if you avoided the triangle with that pass, that (and this is judging by the last pic) it would be extremely difficult to complete the pass due to the fact that you are bending at the waist like that, and your opponent is probably gripping your collar and squeezing his legs very tightly to simply not let you pass.

I would think that upon trying to reposition yourself or break the grip you would probably gety triangled then.

 

[Michael Myers]

Well I think it's pretty safe to say that this one works for some and doesn't for others. There is no reason for anyone to get bent out of shape about it. Everyone's game is different, so if it works for you, more power to you. If not than discard it as an option and work on your more sucessful passes.

 

[Greasemonk]

I refute it. It sucks. I have said why. End of story.

If you continue to think that you can keep your elbow bent and that arm out of danger while it is availible to BOTH of my arms please continue to do so. There is a whole group of people who still believe the earth is flat and that the war in Iraq was a good idea. It doesn't make them right just because there is a group of them.

As for your invitation to try it out on you - sure. Enter middleweight purple at a tournament and make sure you try that pass. I'll even let you have the takedown. A lot easier to submit someone in the first few seconds than work the takedown, improve the position, and then actually have to force the submission. It's a lot easier when they are given to you.

Have you ever tried the pass? Have you ever been taught it the right way? If you havn't then quit judging things you've only seen pictures of