Traditional Gracie stacking guard pass...why?

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by DMcKayBJJ, Apr 20, 2006.

  1. DMcKayBJJ

    DMcKayBJJ Blue Belt

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    So the traditional beginner Gracie JJ guard pass that is STILL taught is the hold the arm, put your other knee up, shimmy your other hand and arm under the leg, stack, etc...

    My question is...why?

    Is there anybody out there who can manage to pull this off on anybody higher than a 2-day white belt?

    Is it just to teach the importance of stacking?

    Any thoughts?
     
  2. Sherdog_Mutt

    Sherdog_Mutt Purple Belt

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    Royler wrote in one of his books that this traditional pass is just a stacking drill.

    However, I've heard of how Rickson (during one of his seminars) passed the guards of several black belts using only this pass.

    Naturally the biggest danger with this pass is the triangle. There are two important aspects of this pass, preventing the triangle, that almost all beginners are sloppy with: 1) the arm that's controlling the opponent's arm must keep the elbow tucked into the body and 2) good posture.

    Nevertheless, guys with skilled guards are normally able to extend out the arm that's inside as well as breaking down the guy's posture, so this pass is hard to pull off correctly against a skilled opponent.

    Personally, I think of this pass as a only a stacking drill for white belts.
     
  3. Zankou

    Zankou Muscle and Hate Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    Man, I hate that "pass." I've never used it. Are there other stacking passes that are more effective?
     
  4. Alzi_

    Alzi_ Orange Belt

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    This is an antiquated guard pass from the early days of BJJ. After a Rolls Gracie student discovered the triangle, everyone had to go back and re-learn how to pass the guard. The Gracie Academy students who were taught this as a standard guard pass would constantly end up getting triangled in competition.
     
  5. the worst is when you're rolling with someone good like your instructor and he passes your guard with this crap. sad times.
     
  6. Ghost Dog

    Ghost Dog Purple Belt

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    not true what-so-ever. lets say your shooting your left hand between the legs. all you have to do is keep your right elbow tight and low against your right thigh. this prevents your opponents left leg from coming up for a triangle. meanwhile, you grab his lapel and stack.

    this is a #1 way to pass in BJJ for a reason.... it works. the oldtimers can use this repeatedly, even if you see it coming. its just like anything else man... if you get good at it, its hard to stop. in no way is this simply just a 'drill.'
     
  7. mateo

    mateo Blue Belt

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    I highly doubt that a Rolls Gracie student "discovered" the triangle.
     
  8. Balto

    Balto Silver Belt

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    I always thought that pass was more of a part of the self-defense curriculum.

    It's not that uncommon for even untrained people to put the guard on you once you take them down. Most untrained people will try to use their legs to squeeze you (like do-jime) to make it hard to breathe. This makes their guard very tight for a little bit until their legs get tired.

    I think the reason for pinning the one arm is so you don't get punched in the face as you pass. The other hand can simply stack under his leg because you are assuming that the guy is untrained and can't properly do a triangle since it's complicated. I think passing the guard in this way is probably the easiest, quickest, and most reliable way against someone who doesn't know what the triangle is.

    Of course, you could still make this pass work against a skilled opponent with a good triangle. It will just be a lot harder, and I think it's just too difficult to make it work in those situations. Hence why most BJJ guys pass the guard other ways in practice.
     
  9. VanDamme

    VanDamme Green Belt

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    Very true- this is a very tried and true position here. While initially white belts may get triangled when attempting this pass, you're likely to fail the first time you try any move- they all take experience.

    That being said, my instuctor who's of Gracie lineage really REALLY prefers this pass, and some of the Gracies, notably Royler, still pass the guard this way, and hes yet to be triangled.

    Before anyone jumps in with a smart ass comment about how Eddie Bravo triangled him, I'd just like to point out that Royler was not caught in the triangle as a result of attempting this pass.
     
  10. Greasemonk

    Greasemonk Guest

    Thats why when you do this pass, you keep your arm bent so they can't armbar you and you keep your head high. Alot of people at my school have become very good at this pass including me
     
  11. Rinksterk**

    Rinksterk** Banned Banned

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    I think he meant that he found out that there was a move called the triangle in another martial art. Probably Judo. I heard GJJ didn't have that move until somebody's student (not sure who) saw it in a Judo instructional book.
     
  12. Stoic1

    Stoic1 Patriot

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    There are some dumb fuckers here apologizing for shitty technique.

    Be sure you are talking about the right one. Hand on the bicep, reach back and hike the leg on the shoulder, stack, and pass. If that is what you are talking about it is complete shit. There is no apologizing for this crap passed out as caviar by Rorion/Helio.

    There is a good way to pass my hiking the leg up on your shoulder. But that involves pinning the bottom leg down with a stiff arm, straddling it somehow, and then passing. But that isn't what we are talking about.

    We are talking about the "Gracie Gift" as it is commonly known.

    Let us take a look at its absolute ignorance:
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Look at that lame shit. If that guy on the bottom was even a 3month white belt there would be a triangle on Rorion so fucking fast he wouldn't even have time to say "Dumb Americans".

    There are many, many better passes out there. There is absolutely no reason to be using this antiquated piece of shit unless you like to still believe in drilling holes in someones head for headaches, and cleansing the blood by drinking urine or whatever fucked up crap they did back in the bronze age.

    There is also no excuse to be using it as a 'stacking drill'. Teaching bad habits is counter productive.
     
  13. DMcKayBJJ

    DMcKayBJJ Blue Belt

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    Good responses so far...
    More thoughts from me:

    If it is the type of technique that requires such precision and practice to make it effective, why is it taught as the "basic" pass?

    I agree that the arm-holding part is to prevent getting punched in a self-defense or striking-allowed situation. But in pure sub grappling or sport BJJ, the arm-holding is just not necessary.

    The arm that you use to hold his bicep down...everyone says to keep it bent, obviously to protect against armbars/triangles, and to pressure your elbow against his thigh. I don't know about you guys, but the distance from my elbow to my hand is about a foot and change. If I've get my elbow on his thigh, even if it's up near his groin/hip, I just can't reach my hand to his bicep. So, this usually means letting go of his arm, at which point all bets are off and he can sit up and break my posture down.

    Anybody know the name of the sweep where you (if you're on the bottom and he's trying this pass on you) trap/grab his arm/elbow (the one he's holding your left bicep with) with your left hand, then skip your hips out a bit so you can underhook his left knee (since he posted up his left foot), then push him with your right leg to sweep towards his right side...is it the flower sweep? star sweep? Seems like the obvious counter
     
  14. Greasemonk

    Greasemonk Guest

    Stoic, the way my instructor taught us this pass is to keep your head high so they cant triangle you and for your arm to be slightly bent so they can't armbar you.

    I've used it many times and I use it alot while sparring not because I dont know anything else, but because if you know how to do it right it works.
     
  15. DMcKayBJJ

    DMcKayBJJ Blue Belt

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    I see your point and would tend to agree...perhaps with less vulgarity, though.

    But of course, some people still appear to swear by it that it works.

    My question to those people is...HOW?
     
  16. Greasemonk

    Greasemonk Guest

    AHHH BY KEEPING YOUR HEAD UP SO THEY CAN'T TRIANGLE YOU. TRY USING THIS NEXT TIME YOU TRAIN, IF YOU DO IT RIGHT YOU'LL BE SURPRISED :D

    lol sorry for caps
     
  17. Stoic1

    Stoic1 Patriot

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    Yeah. Works great on 1 week newbies and other complete idiots who refuse to learn better methods of passing.

    I was tapping Torrance blues as a white belt who tried this shit back in 1999 when they would visit. They would come back weeks later and get triangled again. Never learned a damn thing.

    I haven't had much experience tapping them since purple because at that point they have hit thier head against the wall so many times they eventually learned it was foolish.

    Wake up. It's a shit technique.

    By the way...DO YOU SEE RORION WITH HIS HEAD UP? No. You don't. And do you really think that 'keeping your head up' will protect you from a triangle when you leave your damn arm out there like an idiot? It won't against anyone with skill. And even if you do manage to avoid the triangle the inevitable omoplata is next.

    Fucking fuckity fuck. It's CRAP. It's SHIT. It's is possibly the worst technique ever taught in GJJ.

    Another excellent observation. Putting a knee up without controlling that side arm is suicidal against anyone who is blue or higher. It is begging for a sweep.
     
  18. johil d'o

    johil d'o Thought Warrior

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    I agree that it's still an effective pass if you keep your elbow tucked in. It's taught at Rickson's school still as one option.
     
  19. Alzi_

    Alzi_ Orange Belt

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    Thank you, I should have worded it a little more clearly he re-discovered it but didn't invent it. And yeah it was a Rolls Gracie student who saw in in a Judo manual.
     
  20. Ghost Dog

    Ghost Dog Purple Belt

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    EXACTLY. the thing is with rorions technique (and ive never thought id say this), but its not good. if you see picture #2, he is extending his arm out... basically completely exposing his right arm to an omo plata setup or even the infamous triangle. relson teaches this technique as well, but he keeps his right elbow close to the ground, and very tight against your right thigh. therefore, it takes away an omoplata or triangle setup.

    stoic, i have no idea why youre so against this move (especially if the elbow is tucked in). it works time and time and time again.
     

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