Switching from Muay Thai to Boxing

[spacetime]

Definitely, along with Samart.

. Daniel Cormer was Ko:ed because of his overly extensive head movement and not rounding it up with kicks as in the first match. He went in as a western boxer as far as his stand-up went, and payed the rpice.

 

[Sano]

. Daniel Cormer was Ko:ed because of his overly extensive head movement and not rounding it up with kicks as in the first match. He went in as a western boxer as far as his stand-up went, and payed the rpice.

Cormier is hardly a boxer.

DC was KO'd because he made a mistake. He got baited on the slip without anticipating the kick which he was in perfect position to be hit with.

 

[spacetime]

Cormier is hardly a boxer.
.

That's not the point. He dropped the kickboxing mechanics from their first close encounter and used straight up boxing instead, and while he was succesfull initially he was eventually headkicked. I don't think he would ever be in a position to be headkicked like that if he didn't insist on trying to outbox Jones, which was a foolish strategy.

 

[Sano]

That's not the point. He dropped the kickboxing mechanics from their first close encounter and used straight up boxing instead, and while he was succesfull initially he was eventually headkicked. I don't think he would ever be in a position to be head kicked like that if he didn't insist on trying to outbox Jones, which was a foolish strategy.

I don't understand what your point is. DC slipped a punch and got caught with a kick, that somehow means what? That you can't use boxing in MMA or MT?

What if he had his hands up while slipping? What if he was in a closer range? What if he had blocked it instead with his guard? What if he had smothered the punch instead? What if he had taken the inside angle instead? So on. All these things would be part of boxing as well.

Obviously you have to modify your boxing for MMA or MT, but that doesn't mean you can't apply most things, especially the basics of footwork, delivering punches with power and taking angles. Even slipping, yes. Remember this?

Again, watch the two videos of Samart of Somrak. Two of the greatest MTs ever both using boxing principles to a high level in MT.

If you want to go into the specifics of DCs gameplan and his ability, that's been done pretty extensively already.

 

[spacetime]

One of Cormiers trainer is a former pro boxer. It's clear the camp trained exclusively Boxing, fearing that Jones would grab his leg as in their first encunter and grind him up against the cage.

 

[spacetime]

I don't understand what your point is. DC slipped a punch and got caught with a kick, that somehow means what? That you can't use boxing in MMA or MT?

Well, in my opinion as a kickboxer (TKD style) watching that clip, his head shouldn't even be there to begin with if he applied and anticipated kickboxing.

 

[Sano]

One of Cormiers trainer is a former pro boxer. It's clear the camp trained exclusively Boxing, fearing that Jones would grab his leg as in their first encunter and grind him up against he cage.

Well, in my opinion as a kickboxer (TKD style) watching that clip, his head shouldn't even be there to begin with if he applied and anticipated kickboxing.

You should watch this clip from 2014 before their first fight, it's pretty interesting:


Seems to me that is exactly what they are talking about. Cormier knew about his bad habit of slipping and getting set up with a kick, his camp knew, and still he made the mistake. People make mistakes in fights.

Your point doesn't really make sense. Just because you can apply elements of boxing fundamentals, doesn't mean you shouldn't implement other elements from other martial arts like MT, TKD, Kickboxing whichever. That is why it is called MMA. You have your tools, which works for you as a person as a fighter and you apply those tools against your opponent in the way that makes most sense.

If your argument is that DC had a bad gameplan, I would understand that argument. I wouldn't necessarily agree with it (DC would not be able to win a kickboxing bout against Jones on the outside), but I would understand it. If you say he made a mistake, I would agree.

But if you're saying that DC making a mistake and slipping into a kick means that you can't learn from boxing fundamentals in MMA, it's nonsensical.

Let me ask you this. Weidman throwing a spinning kick against Rockhold and getting beat to a pulp because of it, does that mean that no part of TKD will ever work in MMA? Or better yet, if DC had lowkicked Jones and had been taken down and GnP'd to a stoppage, would that mean that MT is useless in MMA?

It's risk-reward and modification.

 

[spacetime]

Let me ask you this. Weidman throwing a spinning kick against Rockhold and getting beat to a pulp because of it, does that mean that no part of TKD will ever work in MMA? Or better yet, if DC had lowkicked Jones and had been taken down and GnP'd to a stoppage, would that mean that MT is useless in MMA?

It's risk-reward and modification.

I don't think you can compare the reward from a successfull spinning back kick resulting in a KO, to a utilizing a boxers head movement, which doesn't KO anyone but onesself, at worst.

 

[Sano]

I don't think you can compare the reward from a successfull spinning back kick resulting in a KO, to a utilitizing a boxers head movement, which doesn't KO anyone but onesself, at worst.

But used at the right time it can prevent you from getting KO'd, which is just as valuable. Slipping in boxing at the wrong time can get you KO'd too. Sometimes blocking is better, sometimes slipping is better. Within boxing itself there are so many styles.

Defensively from this extreme:


to this:


With everything inbetween. Offensively it's another layer entirely.

Like someone like Naseem who was all over the place doing crazy stuff:


to someone like Gonzalez who always has his hands up, primarily uses blocks and parries and prefers to break people down methodically:


You see the point I'm getting at? Also, try to address the entire post.

 

[spacetime]

But used at the right time it can prevent you from getting KO'd, which is just as valuable. Slipping in boxing at the wrong time can get you KO'd too. Sometimes blocking is better, sometimes slipping is better. Within boxing itself there are so many styles.

Defensively from this extreme:


to this:


With everything inbetween. Offensively it's another layer entirely.

Like someone like Naseem who was all over the place doing crazy stuff:


to someone like Gonzalez who always has his hands up, primarily uses blocks and parries and prefers to break people down methodically:


You see the point I'm getting at? Also, try to address the entire post.

No, I don't see your point because I was critizing boxing head movement outside of boxing rules settings. You are more likely to get your head kicked or kneed than avoiding it by bobbing and weaving. Any kickboxer will tell you that.

 

[Sano]

No, I don't see your point because I was critizing boxing head movement outside of boxing rules settings. You are more likely to get your head kicked or kneed than avoiding it by bobbing and weaving. Any kickboxer will tell you that.

The point was to show that you don't have to rely on head movemement, much less exaggerated head movement, as a boxer. In or outside a boxing ruleset.

 

[spacetime]

The point was to show that you don't have to rely on head movemement, much less exaggerated head movement, as a boxer. In or outside a boxing ruleset.

Granted. You will notice that I was responding to a boxer in here who claimed that it was common sense with exaggerated head movement and no real drawback with it in freestyle settings, and critized a kickboxers centralised head movement. Then you joined the debate.

 

[Sano]

Granted. You will notice that I was responding to a boxer in here who claimed that it was common sense with exaggerated head movement and no real drawback with it in freestyle settings, and critized a kickboxers centralised head movement. Then you joined the debate.

As far as I understood it he said getting the head off center line, right? You can slip a punch without leaning into a kick.

Ultimately again it is risk reward. You have to be aware of the dangers of slipping way down low, with no guard, into a knee or a kick under a ruleset that allows those things. That might mean for some that you would have to make your style more conservative, but you can still slip and block and parry, even roll, without leaning into kicks and knees. Also, the boxing fundamentals we've talked about is so much more than that. Power punching, footwork, taking angles, understanding punching range, using the jab, setting up counters, using a guard in various ways, so forth.

With that, even "exaggerated", or rather big, headmovement can work in MT and MMA if used at the right time and in the right way. Cody vs Cruz was a great recent example. Samart and Somrak was the MT examples which I pointed out in the first post. Samart is arguably the greatest MT fighter ever, exactly because he found a way to fluently combine elite level MT with elite level boxing.

 

[spacetime]

As far as I understood it he said getting the head off center line, right? You can slip a punch without leaning into a kick.
.

He wrote "There is no advantage keeping your head centered, and not moving", therefore the inverse is assumed to be good: "Keep the head moving". I don't find anything wrong with leaning the head back, like boxers do on the rope, but that's as far as it goes for me.

 

[Sano]

He wrote "There is no advantage keeping your head centered, and not moving", therefore the inverse is assumed to be good: "Keep the head moving". I don't find anything wrong with leaning the head back, like boxers do on the rope, but that's as far as it goes for me.

I agree it depends on the situation. Just to be sure, moving your head doesn't have to be a big movements.

 

[ARIZE]

@Sano

Something you might forget, or just haven't experienced, but i think a lot of boxer or even kick boxer don't realize. Slipping punches is not dangerous only against kicks. Of course if you are in a low stance, and make big movements it is a big factor.
But also a light slip to the side to avoid a punch, is a dangerous move, because: elbows.
Its not that hard to make your missed punch into an elbow, or just set it up as a feint to an elbow...You cannot slip an elbow, the surface is too big.
Can you pull that move every now and then? Sure... Can some fighters use it more often, yes, some exceptional fighters... but there is a reason why in MT, slipping punches to the side is not a main defensive option...
There are lots of problem with it, from kicks and knees to the head from an excessive movement, to be unbalanced when your opponent grabs you into a MT clinch after a missing punch, while his hand is behind your head, in an optimum position, to elbows...

If you slip to the inside, i 'll go for a double MT clinch, if you slip to the outside, i will push you further down to unbalance you into a knee (i think that's what happened in the sparring boxing video of Connor with the guy he "supposedly" floored, without the knee obviously), or just turn my punch into an elbow...

I don't remember what experience you have in MT, but i am sure if you had pro matches with elbows, you would see/understand why it's not that simple.

 

[Sano]

@Sano

Something you might forget, or just haven't experienced, but i think a lot of boxer or even kick boxer don't realize. Slipping punches is not dangerous only against kicks. Of course if you are in a low stance, and make big movements it is a big factor.
But also a light slip to the side to avoid a punch, is a dangerous move, because: elbows.
Its not that hard to make your missed punch into an elbow, or just set it up as a feint to an elbow...You cannot slip an elbow, the surface is too big.
Can you pull that move every now and then? Sure... Can some fighters use it more often, yes, some exceptional fighters... but there is a reason why in MT, slipping punches to the side is not a main defensive option...
There are lots of problem with it, from kicks and knees to the head from an excessive movement, to be unbalanced when your opponent grabs you into a MT clinch after a missing punch, while his hand is behind your head, in an optimum position, to elbows...

If you slip to the inside, i 'll go for a double MT clinch, if you slip to the outside, i will push you further down to unbalance you into a knee (i think that's what happened in the sparring boxing video of Connor with the guy he "supposedly" floored, without the knee obviously), or just turn my punch into an elbow...

I don't remember what experience you have in MT, but i am sure if you had pro matches with elbows, you would see/understand why it's not that simple.

Yeah it's a good point. Elbows, and the clinch, does change it up. I understand perfectly well that you won't fight exactly the same in MT as you would in a boxing match. You have to adapt. You still see elbows used in boxing, someone like Mayweather is excellent at slipping in elbows after a slipped punch "accidentally", but it's not as prevalent obviously.

The thing about head movement under any ruleset, even boxing, is that it is only part of a whole. If it becomes predictable, trust me a skilled boxer will have a lot of an easier time to pick you off or set up traps than most other MAs would. The whole thing is to keep the opponent guessing, to not be predictable. Moving forward, moving backwards, side to side, using the guard, parrying, mixing it up. Making your opponent commit is a good way to counter, but the bigger problem in MT would be that the opponent not targeting your head at all. Keeping distance and blasting your legs and then initiate the clinch as soon as you're in punching range. Not that that is an impossible task to overcome, but it is a difficult one if you're outmatched in the clinch and kicking department.

You still see Thais pull back a lot, which is part of it. Just like Floyd uses the pull counter, Thais does too. The leanback is a dangerous move, but as long as you understand your distance it works. Same applies with slipping, but there you can use your guard with it as well.

I agree that everything has to be modified to work under a specific ruleset, but there are a decent amount of Thais out there who trains in boxing and uses it well in MT. We've already talked about a few legends, but for the sake of the argument I will concede that they are special. Still, the point stands. You don't have to be a slipping and ducking machine (like Somrak), but I stand by that you can use head movement effectively in MT, in the dosage it's needed.

This whole thing started off with me saying that boxing fundamentals have a place in MT, and as I've said, boxing fundamentals is a lot more than headmovement.

 

[Reyesnuthugr]

I suspected the first question was bait for an argument, lol. And here we are.

Boxing has useful elements to sharpen and round out a MT/kickboxer's skills, that's why some MT practitioners include it in their training (or else they wouldn't bother, obviously). Some things need to be modified, and somethings don't need much or any modification. There are some noticeable MT guys that do fantastic with the bladed stance (I've seen the names mentioned, I'll leave you guys in charge of the names).

There are a lot of misconceptions that can't be "argued" and understood without getting in there and trying them during sparring. You'll understand then. Scientists don't use a debate to create new models, they have to conduct tests with actual application, then see what works and why.

Bonus Trollbait Inside! vvv

Spoiler

One thing I keep seeing is that 'moving your head will get you to move into a kick or knee, etc.' Well if that worked like that then they could also move into a punch, right? But it clearly doesn't work like that. Kicks and knees are not faster/more agile than punches...

Also, when head movement/placement is utilized doesn't make it more vulnerable if you know what you are doing, it makes it a lot more difficult for a skilled opponent to hit. That's the entire reason why it is done.

Meanwhile, a stationary, always centered head is not invisible, quite the opposite. It's basically resting nicely on a golf tee in comparison, and doesn't require half the skill to "time." It basically requires no timing skill at all....Then you lean forward when throwing a punch like spacetime suggested-- bringing your opponent's target(face) closer to their weapon (without increasing the range of your own) with less time for you to react, AND getting off balance so unable to react quickly, and then finally not even knowing how to move your head when the punch comes... (___♪ insert preferred lullaby here ♫___)

It's the same thing that makes Karate purists have trouble getting tagged squarely in the face so much.

The reason I don't feel bad saying it so directly is because I was originally a diehard MT #1 fanboy (and I'm not even ashamed of that) but I learned some things since then. I see no point in adopting fundamentalist attitudes to fighting disciplines. When something can be improved, why not admit it? It's not even a person.

*I was also a BJJ #1 (in grappling) fanboy and I AM ashamed of that.

 

[j123]

Its not that hard to make your missed punch into an elbow, or just set it up as a feint to an elbow...You cannot slip an elbow, the surface is too big.

Yeah. I like chopping using elbows to exchange when a body hook comes.

 

[ARIZE]

You still see Thais pull back a lot, which is part of it. Just like Floyd uses the pull counter, Thais does too. The leanback is a dangerous move, but as long as you understand your distance it works. Same applies with slipping, but there you can use your guard with it as well.

Leanback is a dangerous move, that's why they teach it in more advanced classes, and not at beginners. But they don't teach slips at all. Most of the guys that used it, picked it from cross-training box or Kbox. Slips are not a basic technique in MT, nor an advanced technique. And there are reasons for that. Again, some times it may work, and some people may use it a lot, but its like me saying why don't boxers use techniques from Prince or R Jones... It's not usable for the average boxer as slips are not usable for average Nak Muay (and even champions).

MT is around for some years now, they know what is working and what's not. Yes, there are some stuffs that are kept for tradition, some stuffs are kept for the gamblers, but even those have a logical useful explanation. I don't mind when people are asking why bob and weave, or slips, or Philly shield are not used in MT. But been a 6 month novice, acting like they know better than all the krus with years and years of experience, its getting old after a while. (to be clear i don't mean you, i' ll gladly exchange views with people like you).

It's like all those new MMA guys, going to boxing gyms, and ask them why they don't do stuff there like Connors does...