Semi old video of ronda training bad striking

[AndyMaBobs]

Ya this sums up what I'm saying perfectly. We just haven't seen enough to say one way or another whether McGregor would even be remembered in five years if it weren't for his gaming of the system. In my opinion, absolutely not, he'd be just another "nameless" good fighter like Thiago Alvez or Frank Trigg after a while. If he can get around to fighting on some sort of normal schedule, against non-cherry picked opponents, great, I'd love to be proven wrong.

I think that might be a bit unfair though, because if he wasn't aping the system, he'd still probably be liked in the same way a guy like Cowboy would be. Just for entertaining fights and good striking

 

[fluffball]

I think that might be a bit unfair though, because if he wasn't aping the system, he'd still probably be liked in the same way a guy like Cowboy would be. Just for entertaining fights and good striking

Cowboy is an unfair comparison IMO, since he lives to fight. He's constantly fighting and fights all different types of dangerous opponents. He's racked up a massive history with his fans over something like a decade of fighting at a high level. Any fighter is going to be liked under those circumstances. Clay Guida doesn't always have a fan friendly style, but he's much loved for the history and effort he puts into his fights.

Honestly Pat Barry seems like a good comparison, even though that wasn't my intention. Barry was always a huge favorite of mine for his power and striking, but he's not someone that leaps to mind when I think about the UFC, years after he's stopped fighting.

 

[AndyMaBobs]

Cowboy is an unfair comparison IMO, since he lives to fight. He's constantly fighting and fights all different types of dangerous opponents. He's racked up a massive history with his fans over something like a decade of fighting at a high level. Any fighter is going to be liked under those circumstances. Clay Guida doesn't always have a fan friendly style, but he's much loved for the history and effort he puts into his fights.

Honestly Pat Barry seems like a good comparison, even though that wasn't my intention. Barry was always a huge favorite of mine for his power and striking, but he's not someone that leaps to mind when I think about the UFC, years after he's stopped fighting.

McGregor was quite active before he became a money fighter. Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't say Conor is as great a fighter as Cowboy, you're absolutely right, Cowboy would fight Junior Dos Santos right now for a beer and a kit kat bar, but I think we could have seen Conor fight a lot more.

His main issue was before he was making money if he ever lost he disappeared off the face of the planet for months and he took some big gaps between fights - so maybe money is the real motivator rather than the love of the fight but idk

 

[a guy]

Come on now guys, let's calm down a bit.

There's a little bit I wanna talk about here because I'm one of those hipster douches that can say I was watching Conor McGoat before he was in the UFC.

First point for me:

I wouldn't say he's ever really outclassed Nate Diaz even in the fight he won, that fight still ended with Diaz standing over him pounding the dude. Wouldn't really say he outclasses Holloway either.

Second point and the main one:

McGregor is DEFINITELY not a gatekeeper.

... but he definitely is a great example of a built up star. He was led by the hand to his first title shot. He was given favourable match ups all the way there, including a less experienced Max Holloway who was also coming off a loss. The UFC didn't know Max would end up being a beast, to him he was just a foot note. They didn't give him particularly dangerous strikers either save for Poirier who wasn't as good as he is now, you never saw him fight Cub Swanson. As for whether or not he would have wrecked Lamas - I think we all need to be smart and reasonable and say we don't know. For all we know Lamas could have laid on him for an entire fight.

He didn't have to fight one wrestler to get to the title (in the most wrestler heavy division around), the only wrestler in the featherweight division he fought was Mendes, and that wasn't planned - Mendes only had two weeks. Since Mendes he hasn't fought a great wrestler... the closest is Eddie Alvarez, who is good but also isn't the kind of guy to blast a double, he'd rather strike with you.

He was gifted the title against RDA with a grand total of 0 lightweight fights... and then again vs Eddie Alvarez with that same total of 0 lightweight fights in the UFC.



I think Conor McGregor is a great fighter, but I think we will probably remember him more for the people he didn't fight. Large in part because of the retarded hype around him, there are people who genuinely believe he's the greatest MMA fighter. In a perfect world we'd see him fight Ferguson, Khabib, rematch Poirier, Holloway - we'd get to see him fight Edson Barboza... but I don't see that happening. I wouldn't be at all surprised if we don't see him fight again, despite what Kavanagh and company say.

It's really important to note that McGregor was really built up in the same way that professional boxers are. They knew what a big deal he was from his Cage Warrior days (he was pretty much the only fighter from cage warriors anyone could name at the time) and they were shooting to get him for the title because he talked shit and was entertaining.

In no way is he gonna be remembered more for who he didn't fight. He's gonna be remembered for knocking out the best FW of all time in 13 seconds, then moving up and embarrassing the champion in the weight class above him in one of the most dominant title fights of all time. He's gonna be remembered for coming into the second Diaz fight and showing off adjustments that allowed him to drop Nate 3 times before gassing, and then fighting through the fatigue to beat him convincingly in the fourth round. He's gonna be remembered for one of the most impressive UFC debuts ever, and for knocking out Mendes, and for wrestlefucking Holloway with a torn ACL. Those are all things he did. Yes, he was given some favorable matchmaking. All prospects are. That stopped mattering when he started knocking out elite opposition just like he did the guys on the way up.

As for the whole wrestler thing, Brandao is a very good grappler who had zero success against McGregor. Siver's takedowns and top game are underrated but he also couldn't get McGregor down or do any work. Mendes did get McGregor down, and he did good work with his elbows, but McGregor was still able to work back to his feet each time. He stuffed Alvarez' shots and actually beat him in the clinch while they were tied up. He even used his clinch effectively in the second Diaz fight before getting taken down at the end of the fight. His grappling has been tested and while he might not hold up to someone like Khabib, no one else has either.

People are gifted title shots constantly in the UFC. That doesn't mean anything. Hendo was gifted his shot against Bisping, so was GSP, Edgar and Florian both got gift shots against Aldo, Sonnen vs Jones, the list goes on. The UFC gifts fights to people they want to promote all the time. What matter is who wins those fights. McGregor beat two champions in two different weights, something only 3 other men have done ever.

McGregor is an elite fighter who's gonna be remembered for what he's done in the cage.

 

[a guy]

Ya this sums up what I'm saying perfectly. We just haven't seen enough to say one way or another whether McGregor would even be remembered in five years if it weren't for his gaming of the system. In my opinion, absolutely not, he'd be just another "nameless" good fighter like Thiago Alvez or Frank Trigg after a while. If he can get around to fighting on some sort of normal schedule, against non-cherry picked opponents, great, I'd love to be proven wrong.

That might make some sense if Thiago Alves had knocked out GSP in 13 seconds then moved up and embarrassed Anderson Silva, or if Trigg hadn't been wrecked by Hughes twice in the same fashion.

Nameless fighters don't beat Aldo, Mendes, Holloway and Alvarez they way McGregor did. Literally the only knock on him in his UFC career is his loss to Diaz in his first time moving up in weight (Diaz had fought multiple times at WW in the UFC) after gassing, and he avenged that loss. Not just that, he outboxed Diaz. Who else has done that?

You can hate on him for gaming the system all you want, but he still won the fights. What he's done in the ring is undeniable. You don't have to like McGregor, but saying he'd be forgettable or that he's a gatekeeper is ridiculous.

 

[AndyMaBobs]

Yeah I don't necessarily agree. Brandao was a grappler but not really a wrestler. And like I say before, Mendes wasn't really in shape for that fight. He's fought one powerful wrestler who came in short notice. I mean I think he'll probably beat Khabib, because Khabib strikes like he's paddling a kayak - but his inactivity and lack of fighting good wrestlers does hurt him.

As for what he's remembered for, people are already getting sick of him, even in the heavies which was just people sucking his nuts for a long time.

 

[fluffball]

That might make some sense if Thiago Alves had knocked out GSP in 13 seconds then moved up and embarrassed Anderson Silva, or if Trigg hadn't been wrecked by Hughes twice in the same fashion.

Nameless fighters don't beat Aldo, Mendes, Holloway and Alvarez they way McGregor did. Literally the only knock on him in his UFC career is his loss to Diaz in his first time moving up in weight (Diaz had fought multiple times at WW in the UFC) after gassing, and he avenged that loss. Not just that, he outboxed Diaz. Who else has done that?

You can hate on him for gaming the system all you want, but he still won the fights. What he's done in the ring is undeniable. You don't have to like McGregor, but saying he'd be forgettable or that he's a gatekeeper is ridiculous.

He's not a gatekeeper right now. I'm saying he would have been a gatekeeper if he had to grind his way to the top like everyone else does. He doesn't have the cardio or grappling to win consistently enough in the UFC. Edit: Or at least from what I've seen, maybe he really is the greatest fighter to ever walk the earth, but no one gets to see it because he won't fight.

 

[a guy]

Yeah I don't necessarily agree. Brandao was a grappler but not really a wrestler. And like I say before, Mendes wasn't really in shape for that fight. He's fought one powerful wrestler who came in short notice. I mean I think he'll probably beat Khabib, because Khabib strikes like he's paddling a kayak - but his inactivity and lack of fighting good wrestlers does hurt him.

As for what he's remembered for, people are already getting sick of him, even in the heavies which was just people sucking his nuts for a long time.

This is just moving the goalposts. Mendes looked great against McGregor. He was fast, sharp, explosive, powerful and technical. But he lost. McGregor stuffed some of his takedowns, used a good defensive guard when he was put on his back and escaped every time, then got up and whooped Mendes on the feet. Badly. And Mendes is as elite as it gets. The only people who can say they've beaten Mendes are Aldo and Edgar--two of the greatest p4p fighters of all time. Brandao is a competent wrestler, and he also tried rolling for kneebars and pulling guard and none of it worked. McGregor easily controlled him from the top, moved back to striking and took him out. Siver is a better wrestler than people give him credit for and has a super heavy top game, but he couldn't come close to using it against McGregor. McGregor also easily outwrestled Holloway, and he's shown some very good guard passing in his fights. He easily stuffed Alvarez and outclinched him too. These are all facts. Guys either don't get to use their wrestling against him because he knocks them out before they try, or they get stuffed, or McGregor escapes and knocks them out anyway.

People are mad that he's not fighting right now, and it'll be a shame if he retires without fighting more, but it's not enough to over-shadow him winning two world titles in unbelievably dominant fashion. You guys acts like he doesn't have 21 wins and a 9-1 UFC record with 7 knockouts and he avenged the only loss.

 

[AndyMaBobs]

This is just moving the goalposts. Mendes looked great against McGregor. He was fast, sharp, explosive, powerful and technical. But he lost. McGregor stuffed some of his takedowns, used a good defensive guard when he was put on his back and escaped every time, then got up and whooped Mendes on the feet. Badly. And Mendes is as elite as it gets. The only people who can say they've beaten Mendes are Aldo and Edgar--two of the greatest p4p fighters of all time. Brandao is a competent wrestler, and he also tried rolling for kneebars and pulling guard and none of it worked. McGregor easily controlled him from the top, moved back to striking and took him out. Siver is a better wrestler than people give him credit for and has a super heavy top game, but he couldn't come close to using it against McGregor. McGregor also easily outwrestled Holloway, and he's shown some very good guard passing in his fights. He easily stuffed Alvarez and outclinched him too. These are all facts. Guys either don't get to use their wrestling against him because he knocks them out before they try, or they get stuffed, or McGregor escapes and knocks them out anyway.

People are mad that he's not fighting right now, and it'll be a shame if he retires without fighting more, but it's not enough to over-shadow him winning two world titles in unbelievably dominant fashion. You guys acts like he doesn't have 21 wins and a 9-1 UFC record with 7 knockouts and he avenged the only loss.

That's not moving the goal posts, it's the same point I made before.

You can't deny though that there is a big difference between Brandao and Siver, and someone like Lamas, Edgar etc.

I also wouldn't say I'm acting like he doesn't have a 9-1 record either. It's just pointing out very real truths that surround those wins - his performances don't exist in a vacuum, it doesn't mean he's a bad fighter, but to say there aren't question marks surrounding McGregor just isn't true, and those question marks seem like they'll probably always exist.

 

[a guy]

He's not a gatekeeper right now. I'm saying he would have been a gatekeeper if he had to grind his way to the top like everyone else does. He doesn't have the cardio or grappling to win consistently enough in the UFC. Edit: Or at least from what I've seen, maybe he really is the greatest fighter to ever walk the earth, but no one gets to see it because he won't fight.

That's based on nothing. He was given the Aldo fight on a 5 fight UFC winning streak, where he finished every single guy except for future champ Max Holloway. No one deserved a shot over him at the time except for maybe Mendes, who he ended up fighting and knocking out anyway (I believe he had a knee injury for this fight too). Guys get title fights with similar streaks literally all the time. Weidman was on a 5 fight streak when he got Silva, Dillashaw was 5-2 in the UFC and only on a 1 fight streak before Barao, Garbrandt was on a 5 fight streak where his best win was Mizugaki before Cruz, if you want me to I can go on for a very long time listing guys who got shots off worse streaks. Let me know.

He didn't grind his way to the top, he smashed his way to the top. He made good fighters look like shit, and even some elite fighters look like shit. You're holding the fact that he got good matchups against him, but that doesn't affect his skill in the ring. It doesn't change what he's accomplished. He's outstruck everyone he's ever fought. He's an elite striker and a top fighter.

Nobody is saying he's the best fighter ever. But claiming he would be a gatekeeper or forgettable is still ridiculous. He dominated world champs. You still can't make a thread about Aldo without someone posting "13 seconds" or a thread on Alvarez without something saying "It's called a rock back. We know how to deal with it". He turned world champs into memes.

 

[AndyMaBobs]

Not gonna lie - this is where I will sound like I'm just bashing him because I've been critical. But the whole 13 seconds thing has literally never done anything for me - it just made me laugh and then I thought about how it was such an unlikely scenario, and we'll never really know how those two match up outside of that one fight where the stars aligned and we got that one magic, hillarious moment

 

[fluffball]

It's not ridiculous, there are way too many questions that he refuses to answer. Even you must seriously doubt he'd have gotten past Edgar, the rightful title challenger. There are a LOT of guys I see him losing to.

I don't particularly want to continue the discussion because I don't care about it and we're going in circles here. I think he'd be a gatekeeper if he didn't game the system; the end. If you think I'm the worst poster ever in the history of everything for having a different view than you, well, I'll live.

 

[a guy]

That's not moving the goal posts, it's the same point I made before.

You can't deny though that there is a big difference between Brandao and Siver, and someone like Lamas, Edgar etc.

I also wouldn't say I'm acting like he doesn't have a 9-1 record either. It's just pointing out very real truths that surround those wins - his performances don't exist in a vacuum, it doesn't mean he's a bad fighter, but to say there aren't question marks surrounding McGregor just isn't true, and those question marks seem like they'll probably always exist.

Trying to take away from his win against Mendes is simply disingenuous. McGregor had a hurt knee, and was training for a completely different type of fighter than Mendes. Allegedly he wasn't even doing any wrestling in that camp, and yet he still used his grappling to either stuff or escape, then knocked Mendes out. Neither guy was at 100% but McGregor came out dominant. Like you I've been following McGregor since long before his UFC debut, and the criticism has gone from "McGregor has never fought a wrestler" to "well, McGregor has only fought ONE of the best wrestlers in MMA history". His wrestling has been tested by very good wrestlers, and one elite wrestler, and it's held up. Beyond that, he's outboxed everyone he's ever fought--including Diaz (seriously, who else has done that?).

Edgar would have been a great test for him. Lamas not so much, I see no reason to believe McGregor wouldn't handle Lamas, who's lost to every elite fighter he's faced and been knocked out a couple times. Hasn't shown the best wrestling either, nothing close to the takedowns of Mendes or the striking skill to set it up.

There are question marks around every fighter. Jones never rematched Gus and is a juicy slut, Mighty Mouse is beating up midgets nobody's ever heard of, GSP greased, the list goes on. If you put anyone under the microscope you can start discrediting their wins, raising questions, coming up with guys they never beat 5 times, whatever.

At the end of the day, the point is that yes, just like literally any star, McGregor was built up. He got some favorable fights. He also got some shit fights, and has taken extremely tough matchups on short notice. He got a title shot he didn't deserve, but so have many in UFC history who I've already named. He's been holding up the title, and I'm as pissed about that as anyone, but that doesn't affect his in-cage performances. He's going down in history as the thread two weight champ and one of the biggest stars the sport has ever known because he backs the hype up.

 

[a guy]

It's not ridiculous, there are way too many questions that he refuses to answer. Even you must seriously doubt he'd have gotten past Edgar, the rightful title challenger. There are a LOT of guys I see him losing to.

I don't particularly want to continue the discussion because I don't care about it and we're going in circles here. I think he'd be a gatekeeper if he didn't game the system; the end. If you think I'm the worst poster ever in the history of everything for having a different view than you, well, I'll live.

Yes it is. He fought his way to a title shot just like every other contender with an extremely dominant streak, then dominated two world champions. You can downplay that all you want, but those are the facts. If you wanna talk about a gift title shot, that's what they gave Lesnar. Seriously, after beating Mendes McGregor had a better streak than tons of title challengers, and he went and backed it up.

You have no real basis for your opinion. He earned his title shot, he embarrassed the champ, got gifted a second shot then moved up in weight and embarrassed that champ anyway.

 

[fluffball]

I disagree. You're just going to have to deal with me disagreeing and not just tell me I'm ridiculous and don't have any reason to have an opinion. I've given you my reasons.

 

[AndyMaBobs]

Trying to take away from his win against Mendes is simply disingenuous. McGregor had a hurt knee, and was training for a completely different type of fighter than Mendes. Allegedly he wasn't even doing any wrestling in that camp, and yet he still used his grappling to either stuff or escape, then knocked Mendes out. Neither guy was at 100% but McGregor came out dominant. Like you I've been following McGregor since long before his UFC debut, and the criticism has gone from "McGregor has never fought a wrestler" to "well, McGregor has only fought ONE of the best wrestlers in MMA history". His wrestling has been tested by very good wrestlers, and one elite wrestler, and it's held up. Beyond that, he's outboxed everyone he's ever fought--including Diaz (seriously, who else has done that?).

Edgar would have been a great test for him. Lamas not so much, I see no reason to believe McGregor wouldn't handle Lamas, who's lost to every elite fighter he's faced and been knocked out a couple times. Hasn't shown the best wrestling either, nothing close to the takedowns of Mendes or the striking skill to set it up.

There are question marks around every fighter. Jones never rematched Gus and is a juicy slut, Mighty Mouse is beating up midgets nobody's ever heard of, GSP greased, the list goes on. If you put anyone under the microscope you can start discrediting their wins, raising questions, coming up with guys they never beat 5 times, whatever.

At the end of the day, the point is that yes, just like literally any star, McGregor was built up. He got some favorable fights. He also got some shit fights, and has taken extremely tough matchups on short notice. He got a title shot he didn't deserve, but so have many in UFC history who I've already named. He's been holding up the title, and I'm as pissed about that as anyone, but that doesn't affect his in-cage performances. He's going down in history as the thread two weight champ and one of the biggest stars the sport has ever known because he backs the hype up.

I'm not convinced that he wasn't wrestling in that camp. The idea that he wouldn't train wrestling for Jose Aldo just doesn't sit right with me. Especially with a camp like McGregor's who do kind of just... make shit up.

That argument probably changed because he has only fought won big wrestler. I wouldn't really say he outboxed Diaz in the same way I don't think RDA outboxed Diaz. I think there are definitely question marks on other fighters especially fighters like Jon Jones, although the Mighty Mouse claim is flat out wrong.

The difference between McGregor and other fighters though, is you can say they're all built up but there's a big difference between McGregor and a guy like Holloway who was genuinely thrown to the wolves fighting Dustin Poirier in his debut. I mean man, if you look at his record you'd swear the UFC didn't want him to succeed.

You could well be right about how the fight with Lamas would go, but if you say that he would have beaten him like it's a fact, then you're simply doing the same thing as the guys in the heavies, just assuming McGregor would win. Which isn't a great thing.

 

[AndyMaBobs]

You can downplay that all you want, but those are the facts. If you wanna talk about a gift title shot, that's what they gave Lesnar.

He only fought last year... and I genuinely forgot he was an MMA fighter. He definitely got the worst favouritism.

 

[AndyMaBobs]

Any how, I'm jumping out of this one, it's not getting anywhere and it's time for this little man to head off to bed. Laters

 

[a guy]

I'm not convinced that he wasn't wrestling in that camp. The idea that he wouldn't train wrestling for Jose Aldo just doesn't sit right with me. Especially with a camp like McGregor's who do kind of just... make shit up.

That argument probably changed because he has only fought won big wrestler. I wouldn't really say he outboxed Diaz in the same way I don't think RDA outboxed Diaz. I think there are definitely question marks on other fighters especially fighters like Jon Jones, although the Mighty Mouse claim is flat out wrong.

The difference between McGregor and other fighters though, is you can say they're all built up but there's a big difference between McGregor and a guy like Holloway who was genuinely thrown to the wolves fighting Dustin Poirier in his debut. I mean man, if you look at his record you'd swear the UFC didn't want him to succeed.

You could well be right about how the fight with Lamas would go, but if you say that he would have beaten him like it's a fact, then you're simply doing the same thing as the guys in the heavies, just assuming McGregor would win. Which isn't a great thing.

He definitely outboxed Diaz. He dropped him 3 times with punches and cracked him with hard punches throughout the fight. It's literally the metric he won on.

Whether he wrestled or not, either way he had to change his gameplan dramatically on short notice with a hurt knee, and he still knocked out one of the best wrestlers in MMA history--and the guy most people believe is the best fighter to never win a belt.

Yes, some guys have had insane paths to the title. They're the exception. Most guys get their shot within a 5 feet streak or so. You can't discredit McGregor for getting his title shot off a normal streak, and especially not after he took out Mendes. Especially when he more than proved he belonged in there with elite fighters once he made it to the top.

It's not a guarantee that he would have beaten Lamas, but there's very little reason to believe he wouldn't, and there was never a point where he should have fought Lamas but didn't.

 

[aerius]

Bringing the thread full circle, sort of, there are parallels between Conor & Ronda in that they both have a killer move (Conor's left hand, Ronda's Judo throw to armbar) that they've used to decimate their competition, and in Conor's case he's built a solid system around maximizing the opportunities for landing his left hand. Everything Conor does is with the goal of getting his opponent to unknowingly stick his head in the kill zone of the left hand and it works really damn well. Everyone knows it's coming but they all walk into it anyway.

However, just like with Ronda, there are ways to get past Conor's system, but like Ronda in her day no one has figured it out yet or has the skills to do it. Depending on an opponent's skills there are some ways I can think of to take away the left hand. Someone like Barboza could blast him in the body & legs with kicks, forcing Conor to block with his arms along with breaking his stance so he can't throw punches on a hair trigger, plus it kills his already limited gas tank. Nate Diaz has also shown that someone with a good chin can use a tight high guard to get past the kill zone of Conor's punches and work the clinch game on him.

The potential exploits are there, we're just waiting for the fighter with the right skills to put together the right gameplan for beating him. IMO, Max Holloway with his solid chin and body banging style would beat the fuck out of Conor in a 5 round fight.