Russian Wrestlers and PED's?

The guy who said hundreds of American athletes had failed tests ignored by American sporting bodies was Carl Lewis (Google it). How much higher level than Carl Lewis can you get?

Or am I misunderstanding what you're objecting to?
I was saying that the people on here who've been around high level training all think Americans have been doing it too. The big difference is that the use and administration of PED's completely changes the dynamic. Especially when US wrestlers are subjected to USDA level testing
 
Two of Russias athletes in the Olympic games tested for Meldonium last year. That should be all you need to know

It doesn't tell too much IMO because Meldonium wasn't banned at that time. Plus Meldonium is kinda small beer IMO

The sample tampering (& assorted mafioso shadiness around it) is a big deal though
 
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When your country gets exposed for a state sponsored PED ring, and many wrestlers have popped, it's hard not to doubt the accomplishments of previous (or possibly current) wrestlers. Russians are a bunch of dicks.
Lol yeah, America is so innocent and would never think about taking PEDS, right? and wait, we're dicks because we're better at wrestling than the USA? nice to know, this year we took down your number 1 and 2 guys, who are you gonna cry over next?

Lastly, in recent memory, which of our wrestlers have popped? Lebedev around 10 years ago?
 
Lol yeah, America is so innocent and would never think about taking PEDS, right? and wait, we're dicks because we're better at wrestling than the USA? nice to know, this year we took down your number 1 and 2 guys, who are you gonna cry over next?

Lastly, in recent memory, which of our wrestlers have popped? Lebedev around 10 years ago?
Um dude.. you understand the state sponsored doping scandal is public knowledge now right? Kinda hard to tell who's popped if you literally have federal support in covering it up or providing false urine samples. That's as fucking stupid as saying Lance never failed a test so he's innocent even after admitting it. It's pretty well known in the wrestling community,at least the people I know that Iran might be one of the worst offenders. And I've Talked About multiple times how I think there's us wrestlers who do it..

The difference is... our government pays for random testing.. literally anytime and anywhere.. your countries government has been PROVEN to be both supplying AND covering it up...

So no its not just everyone being mean to Russia..
 
Lol yeah, America is so innocent and would never think about taking PEDS, right? and wait, we're dicks because we're better at wrestling than the USA? nice to know, this year we took down your number 1 and 2 guys, who are you gonna cry over next?

Lastly, in recent memory, which of our wrestlers have popped? Lebedev around 10 years ago?
Saleev and Semenov got busted this year in competition. Russian wrestlers also were caught in the WADA lab, and they destroyed 28 positive doping tests. Thats 30 guys in the last 5 years. Only one American got busted since London and it was for an OTC weight loss drug.

I was under the USADA tests from 2007-2012. If an American wrestler is on something and he is in the top 8, he will get caught.
 
You are talking about track and field, not wrestling. US wrestlers are the cleanest in the world hands down. We have the most stringent testing out of any NGB. Dont say US wrestling is doping because track athletes of the 80's were doping.

Two of Russias athletes in the Olympic games tested for Meldonium last year. That should be all you need to know, never mind they destroyed 28 samples and had wrestlers inside the WADA facility.

You could well be right about conditions today - things have changed for the better in terms of PED testing in much of the world; Russia and China are today exceptions. And if what you say is true, then my hat's off to US Wrestling.

However Satiev and Karelin were active in the 90's and early 2000's, before USADA was testing American wrestlers (or anyone else), and to assume that those two were doping but Americans who also never tested positive weren't strikes me as fairly partisan.

Its possible that unlike American track (which was as heavily invested in PED's as Russia or China at the end of the 20th century, tho based on private enterprise rather than gov't sponsorship), American wrestling never had anyone using PED's in the 90's/early 2000's, but other countries who similarly never tested positive were using. But possible is a long way from proven, or even likely. I note that according to Wiki, in that time period only one wrestler tested positive in the Olympics, and he was from Mongolia. That doesn't seem like much of a basis to suggest the Russians were using but the Americans weren't.

Part of my suspicion probably comes from being a Canadian, and remembering the (deservedly) huge moral outrage against Ben Johnson, and then learning later on how many American track athletes, including Lewis, who was one of his most outspoken critics, were using themselves. (For that matter, even in this Olympics two of the sprinters on America's 4*100m relay team had been suspended in the past for using). It really seems that everyone thinks their athletes are clean but the competitors are cheating; perhaps that's natural, but it doesn't mean anyone has to take such pronouncements as gospel.
 
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You could well be right about conditions today - things have changed for the better in terms of PED testing in much of the world; Russia and China are today exceptions. And if what you say is true, then my hat's off to US Wrestling.

However Satiev and Karelin were active in the 90's and early 2000's, before USADA was testing American wrestlers (or anyone else), and to assume that those two were doping but Americans who also never tested positive weren't strikes me as fairly partisan.

Its possible that unlike American track (which was as heavily invested in PED's as Russia or China at the end of the 20th century, tho based on private enterprise rather than gov't sponsorship), American wrestling never had anyone using PED's in the 90's/early 2000's, but other countries who similarly never tested positive were using. But possible is a long way from proven, or even likely. I note that according to Wiki, in that time period only one wrestler tested positive in the Olympics, and he was from Mongolia. That doesn't seem like much of a basis to suggest the Russians were using but the Americans weren't.

Part of my suspicion probably comes from being a Canadian, and remembering the (deservedly) huge moral outrage against Ben Johnson, and then learning later on how many American track athletes, including Lewis, who was one of his most outspoken critics, were using themselves. (For that matter, even in this Olympics two of the sprinters on America's 4*100m relay team had been suspended in the past for using). It really seems that everyone thinks their athletes are clean but the competitors are cheating; perhaps that's natural, but it doesn't mean anyone has to take such pronouncements as gospel.
So basically, even though everything in the Russian culture of athletics corresponds to what happened and no one is saying that the Americans as a country are completely innocent... you're using someone sabotaging Ben Johnsons sample in the 80's and Carl Lewis being a hypocrite as your "proof" Satiev or Karelin didn't use

Like I've said, the more and more I learn about this issue.. the more it just fascinates me how naive people are
 
I was saying that the people on here who've been around high level training all think Americans have been doing it too. The big difference is that the use and administration of PED's completely changes the dynamic. Especially when US wrestlers are subjected to USDA level testing

If you mean today, I tend to agree; the Russians (and Chinese) seem to be involved in the majority of the failed tests (often retroactive testing in fact). If you mean at the time when Satiev and Karelin were wrestling, I'm more skeptical - USADA wasn't around at the time, and PED use was fairly common everywhere.
 
If you mean today, I tend to agree; the Russians (and Chinese) seem to be involved in the majority of the failed tests (often retroactive testing in fact). If you mean at the time when Satiev and Karelin were wrestling, I'm more skeptical - USADA wasn't around at the time, and PED use was fairly common everywhere.
That still doesn't exclude Karelin and Satiev and I've already stated that I'm very sure american wrestlers from back then were using too.. but even then I'm am willing to bet money that in Russia and China it was state sponsored... not so much with the us or Canada back as it is today

Your entire argument has basically boiled down to pretending that Russia can't be talked about or criticized, because your mad Carl Lewis was a hypocrite (and probably sabotaged Johnsons sample), and no "positive" tests.. so it throws all the evidence and smoke out the window...

No one has said the Americans have been totally innocent.. but saying "hah there's been no positive tests and we'll I liked those wrestlers so stop being mean Americans" is just naive
 
Fact if the matter is that US Olympians all went through proper testing. That doesn't guarantee they're clean but it's the best we can do right now.

The Russians have not been held to the same standards. No Russian athletes should have been allowed to compete since they we cannot say with any confidence that they have been tested properly. Chances are, they are juiced to the eyeballs. They have a history of it and a system corrupted so they can dope.

You can make all the claims you like about the US athletes but at least they were tested.
 
You could well be right about conditions today - things have changed for the better in terms of PED testing in much of the world; Russia and China are today exceptions. And if what you say is true, then my hat's off to US Wrestling.

However Satiev and Karelin were active in the 90's and early 2000's, before USADA was testing American wrestlers (or anyone else), and to assume that those two were doping but Americans who also never tested positive weren't strikes me as fairly partisan.

Its possible that unlike American track (which was as heavily invested in PED's as Russia or China at the end of the 20th century, tho based on private enterprise rather than gov't sponsorship), American wrestling never had anyone using PED's in the 90's/early 2000's, but other countries who similarly never tested positive were using. But possible is a long way from proven, or even likely. I note that according to Wiki, in that time period only one wrestler tested positive in the Olympics, and he was from Mongolia. That doesn't seem like much of a basis to suggest the Russians were using but the Americans weren't.

Part of my suspicion probably comes from being a Canadian, and remembering the (deservedly) huge moral outrage against Ben Johnson, and then learning later on how many American track athletes, including Lewis, who was one of his most outspoken critics, were using themselves. (For that matter, even in this Olympics two of the sprinters on America's 4*100m relay team had been suspended in the past for using). It really seems that everyone thinks their athletes are clean but the competitors are cheating; perhaps that's natural, but it doesn't mean anyone has to take such pronouncements as gospel.

I don't really care who was juicing and who wasn't but you have to remember there was never really money involved in wrestling in he US. It's a niche sport which didn't get much financial backing (This is one of he reasons why a guy like DuPont was able to get so much notoriety in the wrestling community, he gave money when nobody else did).

Compare wrestling to cycling where a guy like Lance Armstrong was making $Millions and could afford the best PEDs along with the ability to beat the testers.

I'm not saying American wrestlers weren't roiding back in the day. I have no clue. But they didn't have the sophisticated technology and practices that team that was state sponsored would have.
 
So basically, even though everything in the Russian culture of athletics corresponds to what happened and no one is saying that the Americans as a country are completely innocent... you're using someone sabotaging Ben Johnsons sample in the 80's and Carl Lewis being a hypocrite as your "proof" Satiev or Karelin didn't use

Like I've said, the more and more I learn about this issue.. the more it just fascinates me how naive people are

I've no idea how you've gained the impression that I said Satiev and Karelin weren't using. What I'm stating is that its equally likely that everyone else was using as well - ie that the two didn't have an unfair advantage, because everyone was using.

Naive is thinking just the Russians were taking PED's, and so singling them out. Your country's wrestling greats were just as likely to be using as everyone else's, uncomfortable as that might be.

I don't really care who was juicing and who wasn't but you have to remember there was never really money involved in wrestling in he US. It's a niche sport which didn't get much financial backing (This is one of he reasons why a guy like DuPont was able to get so much notoriety in the wrestling community, he gave money when nobody else did).

Compare wrestling to cycling where a guy like Lance Armstrong was making $Millions and could afford the best PEDs along with the ability to beat the testers.

I'm not saying American wrestlers weren't roiding back in the day. I have no clue. But they didn't have the sophisticated technology and practices that team that was state sponsored would have.

That's quite possible. I'd argue that the best private technologies and practices were and are better than what the Russian state can provide (its true in just about every other form of technology from medicine to electronics, so its hard to see why it wouldn't be true for PED's as well), but as you say, the American wrestlers back then might not have had access to those.

In terms of likelihood of roiding back then, I suspect its pretty much a wash across the board - the only difference would be in the quality of PED's. And given the level of testing, even that might not have as important back then as it is now. Its too bad they didn't save the blood samples back in the 80's and 90's, they're now finding usage from quite a few old 2008 and 2012 samples.
 
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I've no idea how you've gained the impression that I said Satiev and Karelin weren't using. What I'm stating is that its equally likely that everyone else was using as well - ie that the two didn't have an unfair advantage, because everyone was using.

Naive is thinking just the Russians were taking PED's, and so singling them out. Your country's wrestling greats were just as likely to be using as everyone else's, uncomfortable as that might be.



That's quite possible. I'd argue that the best private technologies and practices were and are better than what the Russian state can provide (its true in just about every other form of technology from medicine to electronics, so its hard to see why it wouldn't be true for PED's as well), but as you say, the American wrestlers back then might not have had access to those.

In terms of likelihood of roiding back then, I suspect its pretty much a wash across the board - the only difference would be in the quality of PED's. And given the level of testing, even that might not have as important back then as it is now. Its too bad they didn't save the blood samples back in the 80's and 90's, they're now finding usage from quite a few old 2008 and 2012 samples.
When will you get through your head I'm saying that there were us wrestlers back then using in fact i have suspicians about a lot of People now. But as far as money and access and quality of drugs. Russian sports science has always been ahead of ours and in the late 90's and early 2000s by that time Russian wrestling was run by the mob with the money to pay for the best..

In contrast, until the debacle of 2008 and only the 16th ranked Cejudo medaling... the us wrestlers did not get paid jack shit... at all after college. They had to barely make ends meet as an assistant coach or doing seminars instead of training. In fact the only reason so many wrestlers went into mma (by their own very clear stated admission) was because it was so much more profitable than trying to wrestle post-collegiately. Now I don't know how much know about the ufc pay especially back in the day. But that wasn't that much. . And still more than trying to wrestle. In fact it's actually frankly impressive we have produced the medals we have in the late 90's and early 2000s.


All of these facts are basic common knowledge to anyone who's done their homework about Russian athletics, culture, snd PED'S. But I know, I know, if an american says it, it's automatically wrong because Carl Lewis was a hypocrite about Ben Johnson
 
When will you get through your head I'm saying that there were us wrestlers back then using in fact i have suspicians about a lot of People now.

I'd guess roughly the same time you get it through yours that I never claimed Satiev and Karelin weren't using - perhaps we've both been misreading the other's posts.

But as far as money and access and quality of drugs. Russian sports science has always been ahead of ours and in the late 90's and early 2000s by that time Russian wrestling was run by the mob with the money to pay for the best..

I've heard that claim (Canadians use it to explain how the USSR did so well in hockey), but it's never sounded right to me. Given the general level of medicine (and technology in general) in the USSR (and so Russia until 1989) I find it odd that they'd be ahead in any aspect of medicine. And by the 80's pro-sport was a huge market in the western world, with championships worth many tens of millions. Its hard to believe western pharmaceutical companies weren't interested in it.

All of these facts are basic common knowledge to anyone who's done their homework about Russian athletics, culture, snd PED'S. But I know, I know, if an american says it, it's automatically wrong because Carl Lewis was a hypocrite about Ben Johnson

Its clearly not automatically wrong because an American says it. However, its also not automatically correct. The Soviets invested heavily in sport, as did the Warsaw Pact in general, and the various files liberated when the Berlin Wall came down shows how liberally they used PED's with the DDR (their swimmers especially). However, there's a long way between that and the claim that they were far more advanced than anyone else - the best argument I've seen is that wrestling was an exception in America in that it didn't have access to the PED's available to more lucrative sports; that I find plausible.
 
If you mean today, I tend to agree; the Russians (and Chinese) seem to be involved in the majority of the failed tests (often retroactive testing in fact). If you mean at the time when Satiev and Karelin were wrestling, I'm more skeptical - USADA wasn't around at the time, and PED use was fairly common everywhere.


Look at Karelin's, physique compared to say Baumgartner's back then..this guy was 6'4 of ripped as shit muscle that was lifting and throwing belly down 285lb guys like they were nothing

his physique much like say prime Mark Coleman's or prime Mark Kerr's or Prime Overeems for guys that tall to be that swole, and cut and given the amount of cardio wrestlers/MMA fighters have to do is not possible naturally.

Look at Overeems physique after he lost his 15 to one blood testosterone level. Now that said you are right on one point a lot of people cheat not just the Russians. When people were lauding over Yoel Romero's physique and seemingly fountain of youth athleticism for his age then he gets popped. A guy I'm assuming has been on steroids going back to his Olympic wrestling days a guy strangely enough Satiev straight destroyed in their gold medal match.

It's just when you look at guidev in his match against Burroughs he specifically does not pass the "eyeball test" imho.
 
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Look at Karelin's, physique compared to say Baumgartner's back then..this guy was 6'4 of ripped as shit muscle that was lifting and throwing belly down 285lb guys like they were nothing

his physique much like say prime Mark Coleman's or prime Mark Kerr's or Prime Overeems for guys that tall to be that swole, and cut and given the amount of cardio wrestlers/MMA fighters have to do is not possible naturally.

Look at Overeems physique after he lost his 15 to one blood testosterone level. Now that said you are right on one point a lot of people cheat not just the Russians. When people were lauding over Yoel Romero's physique and seemingly fountain of youth athleticism for his age then he gets popped. A guy I'm assuming has been on steroids going back to his Olympic wrestling days a guy strangely enough Satiev straight destroyed in their gold medal match.

It's just when you look at guidev in his match against Burroughs he specifically does not pass the "eyeball test" imho.

I'm not arguing that Karelin wasn't using, I'm arguing that everyone was using. And if the eyeball test was an accurate way of assessing whether say Baumgartner was using then every sporting organization in the world would be using it instead of spending tens of millions on blood tests. You seem knowledgeable, I assume you don't need me to provide you a list of competitors who passed the eyeball test but tested positive.
 
I'd guess roughly the same time you get it through yours that I never claimed Satiev and Karelin weren't using - perhaps we've both been misreading the other's posts.



I've heard that claim (Canadians use it to explain how the USSR did so well in hockey), but it's never sounded right to me. Given the general level of medicine (and technology in general) in the USSR (and so Russia until 1989) I find it odd that they'd be ahead in any aspect of medicine. And by the 80's pro-sport was a huge market in the western world, with championships worth many tens of millions. Its hard to believe western pharmaceutical companies weren't interested in it.



Its clearly not automatically wrong because an American says it. However, its also not automatically correct. The Soviets invested heavily in sport, as did the Warsaw Pact in general, and the various files liberated when the Berlin Wall came down shows how liberally they used PED's with the DDR (their swimmers especially). However, there's a long way between that and the claim that they were far more advanced than anyone else - the best argument I've seen is that wrestling was an exception in America in that it didn't have access to the PED's available to more lucrative sports; that I find plausible.
I'm a history major and did a research paper on cold war athletics. you seem to misunderstand that just because the Soviet state was corrupt and fucked over most people. Meant that at the top they didn't have the best science, and if not they stole it. The exact same thing that fucked over their economy helped their athletes and sports science.
 
The best argument is "well, US wrestlers in the 80's used PED's" yeah, well who the fuck cares. That was 35 years ago. We are talking about the Rio Olympics and the current state of wrestling, where Russians have been caught using state sponsored drug programs, and the wrestlers in the USA have the strictest testing. It makes the USADA testing in the UFC look like a joke.
 
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