Russian Wrestlers and PED's?

[JenStark]

You're embarrassing yourself...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doping_in_Russia#January_to_May_2016

hmmm, aside from some minor vandal that tried to erase the page several times, I am very surprised that a current sensitive topic such as this has absolutely no discussion about its content.

 

[AnotherOldGuy]

I'm a history major and did a research paper on cold war athletics. you seem to misunderstand that just because the Soviet state was corrupt and fucked over most people. Meant that at the top they didn't have the best science, and if not they stole it. The exact same thing that fucked over their economy helped their athletes and sports science.

I'm an electrical engineer, was alive at the time, and had contact with Soviet technology during grad studies (they would appear at scientific conferences); their technology was almost without exception second rate. Even their rockets had to achieve by pure crude force what was done in the west by much smaller and more efficient rockets and payloads, and their computer and electronics were pitiful (which was a major problem for their scientists, many of whom were brilliant mathematicians). I just have a hard time believing that a country that was so backwards in just about every other technology was a world leader in medicine - and it goes against everything I heard at the time, or at the discoveries after the fall of the Wall, about the state of their technology (in general it was worse than we'd suspected).

Yes they would try to buy leading technology, but there were bans on selling it to them in electronics and computers, and I'd be very surprised if there weren't similar bans on medical supplies (they had the nasty habit of trying to reverse engineer things and then not honoring patents).

 

[Jack Handy jr]

I'm not arguing that Karelin wasn't using, I'm arguing that everyone was using. And if the eyeball test was an accurate way of assessing whether say Baumgartner was using then every sporting organization in the world would be using it instead of spending tens of millions on blood tests. You seem knowledgeable, I assume you don't need me to provide you a list of competitors who passed the eyeball test but tested positive.

That's my eyeball test from wrestling, mma'ing, and weightlifting for most of my life. I can look at a guy and tell if he's juicing not just the Phil Heath, Brock Lesnar, Ubereem, types. But your standard issue juice monkey at the local Golds gym. Most guys that are juicing their muscles have that about to burst veiny look (no romo)

Look at some old pics of Karelin. Now a guy that I truly dont think juiced mr. George St Pierre was very ripped and tone. However his body didn't have that marvel comics look like say Thiago Alves, Yoel Romero, Kevin Randle man, Ken Shamrock look.

GSP for a guy that weight trains amongst everything else he does is how one should look aka "my eyeball test" not an Overeem.

Now I said all that to say look at Jordan Burroughs physique. In my opinion it looks a lot like GSP's physique ripped, tone but not cartoonish. Go back and look at Guidev's physique.

Just saying I would bet hard cash that fool was using when he beat Jordan. Just the way he was able to stifle his offense was a tell tell sign

In wrestling or grappling you execute offense and for whatever reason the outcome you expect from grappling hundreds of different people over the years.

and achieving success with your "go to" move which for Burroughs is his blast double suddenly that thing gets shut down and now he's in a terrible defensive position with no leverage, or inertia to help flow in to his next chain of offense.

Burroughs couldn't get a chain of attacks going and for some one of his elite caliber that just shouldn't happen. Esp against a guy in guidev that he's owned in international tournaments leading up to the olympics.

 

[DushanS94]

Actually, that's how most of the world views Americans. You guys are the only country that does not go through Olympic testing, instead offering a guarantee for your own athletes. You must understand how suspicious that looks. And then after years and years of success some athlete just comes up and admits to doping all the time in the past, or gets caught eventually (like Lance Armstrong was.) For example, I would not be surprised if Michael Phelps is juiced up to the gills. Might not be, I doubt it though.

I don't give a shit about those things in general, because it always sounds salty. I'm pretty sure almost every athlete at that level juices, since I've heard too many stories while training, and have concrete evidence of guys at the highest level juciing, people who you would never suspect. That's why I jsut watch sports and admire the guys who win and the guys who lose, because competing and training at that level requires you to give yourself to it completely. That's what gains my respect. Who juices and who does not is always a gray topic of discussion.

 

[yetanother]

That's my eyeball test from wrestling, mma'ing, and weightlifting for most of my life. I can look at a guy and tell if he's juicing not just the Phil Heath, Brock Lesnar, Ubereem, types. But your standard issue juice monkey at the local Golds gym. Most guys that are juicing their muscles have that about to burst veiny look (no romo)

No you can't. There are people who are caught juicing that don't even look like they lift weights.

 

[jack36767]

Actually, that's how most of the world views Americans. You guys are the only country that does not go through Olympic testing, instead offering a guarantee for your own athletes. You must understand how suspicious that looks. And then after years and years of success some athlete just comes up and admits to doping all the time in the past, or gets caught eventually (like Lance Armstrong was.) For example, I would not be surprised if Michael Phelps is juiced up to the gills. Might not be, I doubt it though.

I don't give a shit about those things in general, because it always sounds salty. I'm pretty sure almost every athlete at that level juices, since I've heard too many stories while training, and have concrete evidence of guys at the highest level juciing, people who you would never suspect. That's why I jsut watch sports and admire the guys who win and the guys who lose, because competing and training at that level requires you to give yourself to it completely. That's what gains my respect. Who juices and who does not is always a gray topic of discussion.

Um are you referring to WADA, which us athletes are tested by.. but also has been caught sitting on and hiding on the Russian doping results and cover ups for over a year... yeah ok

 

[AnotherOldGuy]

That's my eyeball test from wrestling, mma'ing, and weightlifting for most of my life. I can look at a guy and tell if he's juicing not just the Phil Heath, Brock Lesnar, Ubereem, types. But your standard issue juice monkey at the local Golds gym. Most guys that are juicing their muscles have that about to burst veiny look (no romo)

If you really can do that, sell your method to the IOC and various sporting bodies around the world, who currently spend tens of millions a year on blood tests - they'll happily pay you millions a year to do so (and still save tens of millions). Currently no one can visually tell who is and isn't using outside of extreme cases, which is why everyone goes through the huge expense and inconvenience of testing. Blood tests are unreliable, but still far more reliable than visual inspection, which give a very high number of both false positives and false negatives. Again, if you are an exception I apologize, but you're wasting your time on this forum, you should be selling your expertise for millions.

That is, I don't believe you can do what you say you can do.

 

[jack36767]

I'm an electrical engineer, was alive at the time, and had contact with Soviet technology during grad studies (they would appear at scientific conferences); their technology was almost without exception second rate. Even their rockets had to achieve by pure crude force what was done in the west by much smaller and more efficient rockets and payloads, and their computer and electronics were pitiful (which was a major problem for their scientists, many of whom were brilliant mathematicians). I just have a hard time believing that a country that was so backwards in just about every other technology was a world leader in medicine - and it goes against everything I heard at the time, or at the discoveries after the fall of the Wall, about the state of their technology (in general it was worse than we'd suspected).

Yes they would try to buy leading technology, but there were bans on selling it to them in electronics and computers, and I'd be very surprised if there weren't similar bans on medical supplies (they had the nasty habit of trying to reverse engineer things and then not honoring patents).

I understand your point about the tech, especially electronic and digital. I've read and heard similar things from people who were alive and in similar sectors during the cold war. The big example being their aircraft having tube electronics. Which is why I was surprised when I first read about their sports science but everything I've read and researched validates that their sports science was cutting edge and they bought or stole what they couldn't develop on their own. And honestly when you really get honest about how embarrassingly better the Soviet intelligence was during the majority of the cold war. It doesn't surprise me that they'd be able to steal most of what they needed from private companies

 

[Dirty Holt]

Actually, that's how most of the world views Americans. You guys are the only country that does not go through Olympic testing, instead offering a guarantee for your own athletes. You must understand how suspicious that looks. And then after years and years of success some athlete just comes up and admits to doping all the time in the past, or gets caught eventually (like Lance Armstrong was.) For example, I would not be surprised if Michael Phelps is juiced up to the gills. Might not be, I doubt it though.

You are incorrect about this. I was a resident athlete at our Olympic training center. All athletes who competed are tested by a WADA agency. WADA assigns who tests who and they do in competition testing at international events. Any athlete who competes overseas gets tested by a WADA rep. That includes American and places like North Korea. Americans are also tested by USADA, that is in ADDITION to WADA testing that everyone else does. Some countries such as Canada, Japan, most Nordic countries, and some western European countries are the same. Places like Russia, Iran, China, etc, they stick to other methods that are way easier to skirt and get away with.

 

[DushanS94]

You are incorrect about this. I was a resident athlete at our Olympic training center. All athletes who competed are tested by a WADA agency. WADA assigns who tests who and they do in competition testing at international events. Any athlete who competes overseas gets tested by a WADA rep. That includes American and places like North Korea. Americans are also tested by USADA, that is in ADDITION to WADA testing that everyone else does. Some countries such as Canada, Japan, most Nordic countries, and some western European countries are the same. Places like Russia, Iran, China, etc, they stick to other methods that are way easier to skirt and get away with.

Really? I stand corrected then. I know I have read and heard that information in many different places and from different sources. Might just be jealous people hating on the success of the US. Would not surprise me. Thanks for clearing that up.

My point was not to instigate a "who dopes more than whom" discussion, but rather to illustrate my suspicion that a lot more athletes dope than people realize, and that it's always hypocritical when accusing others of doping. Better to just leave it alone, let the Olympic comissions worry about it and handle it to the best of their ability, and just enjoy the Olympic games and admire the competitors.

 

[Jack Handy jr]

If you really can do that, sell your method to the IOC and various sporting bodies around the world, who currently spend tens of millions a year on blood tests - they'll happily pay you millions a year to do so (and still save tens of millions). Currently no one can visually tell who is and isn't using outside of extreme cases, which is why everyone goes through the huge expense and inconvenience of testing. Blood tests are unreliable, but still far more reliable than visual inspection, which give a very high number of both false positives and false negatives. Again, if you are an exception I apologize, but you're wasting your time on this forum, you should be selling your expertise for millions.

That is, I don't believe you can do what you say you can do.

It's my experience and I'd bet many others that have been around steroid users for as long as I have. That you can look at a guy like 19 year old Vitor, Thiago Alves and Overeem and know.

So yeah smart ass I don't need to sell my experience to the ioc or wada for millions. My opinion on the matter of Russian athletes (and many others that aren't silly) are more than likely doping given their intelligence apparatus, scientific community probably, and probably even Putin himself were in on it.

Also here's some free advice

Sir to try and use poorly executed sarcasm as a way to try and disprove another's argument in my opinion and considerable life experience has almost always been the mark of an insecure person.

Generally people like this (you) with weak takes on certain issues that they try in vain to argue by going to the shallow intellectual well of sarcasm, are not very well read or experienced on the topic.

That's been my experience dealing with sarcastic people in my 40+ years.

No need to try and go sell it though. Good day sir.

 

[KILL KILL]

Really? I stand corrected then. I know I have read and heard that information in many different places and from different sources. Might just be jealous people hating on the success of the US. Would not surprise me. Thanks for clearing that up.

My point was not to instigate a "who dopes more than whom" discussion, but rather to illustrate my suspicion that a lot more athletes dope than people realize, and that it's always hypocritical when accusing others of doping. Better to just leave it alone, let the Olympic comissions worry about it and handle it to the best of their ability, and just enjoy the Olympic games and admire the competitors.

We're not talking about whether or not some athletes may or may not be able to cheat the system, we're talking about the Russian government hiding results of hundreds of positive tests. Enough so, that the entire country was to be banned from competition.

 

[AnotherOldGuy]

It's my experience and I'd bet many others that have been around steroid users for as long as I have. That you can look at a guy like 19 year old Vitor, Thiago Alves and Overeem and know.

So yeah smart ass I don't need to sell my experience to the ioc or wada for millions. My opinion on the matter of Russian athletes (and many others that aren't silly) are more than likely doping given their intelligence apparatus, scientific community probably, and probably even Putin himself were in on it.

Also here's some free advice

Sir to try and use poorly executed sarcasm as a way to try and disprove another's argument in my opinion and considerable life experience has almost always been the mark of an insecure person.

Generally people like this (you) with weak takes on certain issues that they try in vain to argue by going to the shallow intellectual well of sarcasm, are not very well read or experienced on the topic.

That's been my experience dealing with sarcastic people in my 40+ years.

No need to try and go sell it though. Good day sir.

Fair enough about the sarcasm, my bad.

So I'll stick to the issue. In science (and law from what I've heard) the onus is on the one making a claim to prove it. Which means if you claim you can do something (in this case tell who is and who is not using PED's from visual inspection), no one is expected to believe it unless you can prove it. This is especially true in a case like this, where to date no one has been able to do it (sarcasm aside, there's a reason expensive and inconvenient blood tests are used instead of the considerably easier visual tests: no one has been able to make reliable visual tests under controlled circumstances yet). As they say in science, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence (which is why the initial reports of faster than light neutrino anomaly at CERN was met with initial skepticism ... and in fact it turned out the claim was mistaken).

Good evidence for your claim would be a statistically significant list (a hundred or so would do) of athletes, predicting who will and who will not test positive over the next year. I realize the problem with this is that the blood tests themselves are unreliable, but that's the nature of the game - without some sort of test anyone can say anything (ie a list of fighters who are from Mars but who are too clever to be caught can't be proven false, which is why the onus is on proving it true).

Claims without predictive results are meaningless - they might be true, they might be false, there's no way to determine, so the default in science and law is a new claim is not accepted until proven true.

 

[yetanother]

It's my experience and I'd bet many others that have been around steroid users for as long as I have. That you can look at a guy like 19 year old Vitor, Thiago Alves and Overeem and know.

Anyone can look at obvious roiders and see that they are roided up.
Can you look at Brian Ortega and see that he takes roids? I have team mates who don't take steroids, don't lift weights and where more muscular and taller then him from just doing sport jiu jitsu.

How is the eye test supposed to catch steroid usage in the guy on the picture above?

 

[jack36767]

I love how every non american is trying or using every single argument they can to avoid the fact that the Russian state, sport governing body, intelligence services and doping officials have been CAUGHT not just covering up but have had it said by one of the whistle blowers "they believe in science not people" as well as giving it to them

 

[DushanS94]

I love how every non american is trying or using every single argument they can to avoid the fact that the Russian state, sport governing body, intelligence services and doping officials have been CAUGHT not just covering up but have had it said by one of the whistle blowers "they believe in science not people" as well as giving it to them

And I love how you are blatantly ignoring the fact that Americans were also caught doping many times, and have had their medals taken away. Don't be the pot calling the kettle black. The Russians have been punished for their cheating by having more than half of their Olympic team taken out of the Olympics, which is the correct way to handle cheaters. But if you think that your athletes are not doping as well, you live in a very comfortable bubble, sheltered and hidden from reality.

 

[jack36767]

And I love how you are blatantly ignoring the fact that Americans were also caught doping many times, and have had their medals taken away. Don't be the pot calling the kettle black. The Russians have been punished for their cheating by having more than half of their Olympic team taken out of the Olympics, which is the correct way to handle cheaters. But if you think that your athletes are not doping as well, you live in a very comfortable bubble, sheltered and hidden from reality.

Hey person who obviously hasn't read.. never said Americans don't dope... but to my knowledge the American government, the CIA/FBI, and President Obama haven't been paying for our athletes to use and then covering it up in literally hundreds of cases... which IS the case with Russia

Are you so seriously dense you can't understand the difference? Or is it just an excuse to talk shit on the Americans? Just be honest, I never said my country was perfect or didn't cheat

 

[jack36767]

Actually let me add a thought for the people who think I'm being a hypocritical evil America.. IF my countries government is caught both supplying the highest quality drugs to our athletes.. then using the FBI/CIA to cover it up and supply false urine samples to our athletes when tested by other countries or agency. And ultimately not only being found to to just aid and very up PED use.. actually start making people disappear or get in "car wrecks".. I WILL BE JUST AS CRITICAL, Jesus Christ you children

Let me try to break down the difference for some people. There is a difference between individuals or a team cheating. (And yes it's easier for my country to cheat because we overall have more money.. oops) and the ENTIRE GOVERNMENT systematically aiding and covering up doping.. I hope that's not too hard a concept

 

[Kaffe]

While every country has its documented cheaters, only one country IS ITSELF a documented cheater. That is a huge difference.

 

[DushanS94]

Hey person who obviously hasn't read.. never said Americans don't dope... but to my knowledge the American government, the CIA/FBI, and President Obama haven't been paying for our athletes to use and then covering it up in literally hundreds of cases... which IS the case with Russia

Are you so seriously dense you can't understand the difference? Or is it just an excuse to talk shit on the Americans? Just be honest, I never said my country was perfect or didn't cheat

Since you are accusing me of being dense, showing your obvious lack of intelligence by resolting to insults to prove a point which should be discussed objectively, I see no reason to continue this discussion any further. Also, before you call somebody else dense, make sure you are not making blatantly obvious grammar mistakes in your own native language, it tends to void your argument and make you look a bit foolish.

As for me talking shit about Americans, I am a bit above petty patriotic squabbles, meaning that I have no reason to talk shit about anyone. I am just telling you to add objectivity to the argument and to shed your "murica" glasses, and to see professional sports for what they really are. What Russia has done is either horrible or understandable, depending on your moral compass. But just because Obama/America hasn't been caught funding doping for athletes yet, does not mean they are not doing it. It doesn't mean they are either. I am trying to illustrate the fact that these things always become blurred gray area discussions which have no point since they always tend to go in circles. Yes, Russia cheated, Russia was caught and Russia was punished. As was expected.

That is the point that I was trying to make. To avoid pointless discussions which do not bring anything other than pointless arguments. However, using your obviously very limited comprehension of your own native language, you start talking about your country not being perfect, about me talking shit about Americans and so on and so forth. That was neither the aim of my post, nor the intention behind the point I was trying to make. Take your county vs. country debates elsewhere, I have neither the patience nor the wish to engage in them.