Penn overrated?

[tombombadil]

To be honest this is the same case for most stars of 5 years ago. The sport is constantly evolving and the level of fighter is rapidly improving, therefore the guys on top before don't seem so impressive against todays fighters (Tito - Jones, Sylvia - Velasquez etc)

For his time Penn was the very best at 155 and then with Edgar, time caught up with him, his style was figured out and he stopped evolving with the sport. Happens to everyone if their chin hasn't given out first.

People saying he'll win the 145 title are delusional, but people who say he's overrated are also delusional.

this guy got it right.

Fedor, Wanderlei, and Liddel's resumes aren't very impressive either, when put into context of today's fighters. But they all beat the best of their era.

Young game, still evolving - if we ever see real money paid to the fighters, we will see a boom of Grade A level athletes.

 

[mirko>anyone]

I will question his "heart". Every time he's losing, he wilts or goes into survival mode. That's not the same as a Wanderlei Silva.

 

[GordoBarraBJJ]

never really had a prime but definitly isnt great anymore

prime wasted getting fat in between fights, jumping up and down weight classes, not putting in the hard work.

sadly, I'm thinking this fight with frankie is going to be bad. Unless he moves camp, gets a proper S & C coach, sparring partners that are going to push him -I hate to say it but he loses to frankie again.

 

[BearGrounds]

He's not overrated, just over the hill. The young Penn that burst on the scene putting away Uno and Din would have Conor level hype if he arrived today.

 

[Bob Sapp Junior]

Of course his more rabid fans are delusional, but whose aren't?

He's not overrated.

 

[istay]

Sure he's been losing a lot of fights, but half the guys he has lost to (GSP, Edgar, Diaz, Hughes, Machida, Mcdonald, and Pulver). are elite fighters above his weight class.

 

[MikeyLan]

Think about it though - am I really underrating him, or just being fair. Its not like I said he was a run of the mill fighter. I think he one step below the top echelon (being the A Silva, GSPs, JBJs, Fedors etc). Most fighters are more than one step below.

I think that's fair.

Although he was probably as talented as those guys.

 

[Street Level]

You just completely misunderstood his post.

I could care less.

 

[MikeyLan]

this guy got it right.

Fedor, Wanderlei, and Liddel's resumes aren't very impressive either, when put into context of today's fighters. But they all beat the best of their era.

Young game, still evolving - if we ever see real money paid to the fighters, we will see a boom of Grade A level athletes.

Fedor's resume is extremely impressive. 27 fight win streak over 10 years at HW and 7-0 against UFC HW champions. That's really all you need to know. I mean, how many pudgy LHWs can claim that? That's right. 1.

 

[Street Level]

I give you the award for the most butt-hurt Penn fan. You are too emotionally invested.

My post specifically mentions his LW run and the fighters you have mentioned. And then you ask if I know about them

Penn was a great fighter, the top LW at one point. But he is no GSP/Silva/Jones/Fedor - a 5 run win streak and a couple of other impressive performances do not compare to A Silva's 16 UFC wins in a row, GSP's eight or so year dominance, Fedors approx 30 fight win streak.

Penn is overrated because people rate him among the best. He was a great fighter but is not among the best.

I agree with the 3rd point, totally. But saying he isn't one of the best fighters EVER is a bit silly to me. He won titles in 2 different weight classes. That to me is such a huge and unique accomplishment all by itself.

 

[ufcmma]

I don't know if I'd call him overrated, I think more in the lines of untapped potential. He never really evolved as a martial artist, always one dimensional.
He depended too much on his chin and punching power, never really threw any kicks or improved his wrestling, Kickboxing, or even his BJJ. It was always plod forward, take punishment and throw bombs, no diverseness in his attacks.

 

[PJL]

Look at his resume and tell me exactly who has fought a nastier list of opponents. I'll wait. Penn is and was the man and literally has been fighting the "who's who" of MMA since before he went bald.

MMA ELO considers Penn to have the most difficult strength of schedule across his career than any other fighter. No. 2 is GSP, and No. 3 is Cain Velasquez.

http://www.mma-elo.com/me_hist.php?fighter=558

 

[PJL]

Fedor's resume is extremely impressive. 27 fight win streak over 10 years at HW and 7-0 against UFC HW champions. That's really all you need to know. I mean, how many pudgy LHWs can claim that? That's right. 1.

You guys can't avoid licking Fyodor's balls at any given opportunity, can you?

 

[CaSe]

Maybe, but it is what it is. BJ is from a different era of mma, when cross training wasn't the norm. I'll love him foreva because he fights on natural talent. Lazy? Maybe but again, it is what it is. Always rooting to B! J! Pennnnnnnnnn!

 

[CoffeeAndBeer]

*sigh*

here we go again

Jens Pulver who you discredit was a former UFC champion and he choked out Cub Swanson in 30 seconds.
Matt Serra is underrated and he tko'd GSP, no matter how you try to discredit it. The impossible happened.
defeated another lightweight goat Takanori Gomi
and even managed to beat a prime Matt Hughes who was unstoppable in the UFC with wins over legends and very good MMA veterans like Matt Serra, Hayato Sakurai, Carlos Newton and Sean Sherk and later even GSP.
Fought Duane Ludwig who is a ww and now the secret weapon of team Alpha Male
Fought gracies and defeated them too
BJ even went YOLO and fought Lyoto Machida at heavyweight technically.
Joe Stevenson was a former TUF 2 winner and a legit badass grappler and BJ took his soul.
Sean Sherk is another forgotten badass and former UFC champion who is so criminally underrated that it isn't even funny. Only lost to UFC champions and to no one else.
BJ even had a close fight with GSP which is also a rare feat.
Defeated Kenny Florian who is by some called the best UFC fighter to never win a title.
Gave a perfect peformance against Diego Sanchez and even finished him with a nasty cut and came the closest to finishing him with strikes.

Fought everyone, but his career gets overshadowed by his ww stint
BJ is in no way overrated. Do you know how hard it is to become a UFC champion in 2 weight divisions?

This is almost fighter bashing imo

BJ is actually one of the best wins imo on GSP's record

BJ Penn's Record vs Ranked Opponents:
(and all losses and draws)


WIN - Matt Hughes - Nov/20/2010 -- UFC 123 - Rampage vs. Machida
10 WW - 2010 - Nov 17 - MMA Weekly
6 WW - 2010 - Nov 4 - Josh Gross-Sports Illustrated
7 WW - 2010 - Nov 7 - Fight Matrix-Published
9 WW - 2010 - Nov 4 - MMA Torch
8 WW - 2010 - Oct 29 - Bloody Elbow-USAToday

WIN - Diego Sanchez - Dec/12/2009 -- UFC 107 - Penn vs. Sanchez
4 LW - 2009 - Dec 7 - Fight Matrix-Published
9 LW - 2009 - Nov 24 - MMA Weekly
5 LW - 2009 - Nov 16 - MMA Fighting- Michael D. Smith
4 LW - 2009 - NOV (13?) - WAMMA Rankings
7 LW - 2009 - Nov 20 - Bloody Elbow-USAToday

WIN - Kenny Florian - Aug/8/2009 -- UFC 101 - Declaration
12 P4P - 2009 - Aug 4 - 411mania MMA P4P
12' P4P - 2009 - Jul 17 - Yahoo Sports MMA P4P
2 LW - 2009 - Aug 3 - Fight Matrix-Published
2 LW - 2009 - Jul 30 - Bloody Elbow-USAToday
5 LW - 2009 - Jul 16 - Sherdog
6 LW - 2009 - Jul 14 - MMA Weekly
2 LW - 2009 - Jul 14(17) - Independent World MMA Rankings

WIN - Sean Sherk - May/24/2008 -- UFC 84 - Ill Will
3 LW - 2008 - MAY (5) - MMA Fighting
5 LW - 2008 - May 3 - Fight Matrix-Published
8 LW - 2008 - Apr 23 - Sherdog
2 LW - 2008 - MAY - Full Contact Fighter
4 LW - 2008 - Apr 2 - Bloody Elbow-Meta Rankings

WIN - Joe Stevenson - Jan/19/2008 -- UFC 80 - Rapid Fire
9 LW - 2008 - Jan 11 - Bloody Elbow-Meta Rankings
8 LW - 2008 - Jan 15 - MMA Weekly
8 LW - 2008 - Jan 15 - WAMMA Rankings
6 LW - 2008 - JAN - MMA Fighting
9 LW - 2008 - Jan 4 - Sherdog

WIN - Rodrigo Gracie - Nov/20/2004 -- ROTR 6 - Rumble on the Rock 6
14 MW - 2004 - Nov 14 - MMA Fighting
5 WW - 2004 - Oct 31 - ADCC MMA Rankings
8 MW - 2004 - Oct 28 - MMA Collective Rankings

WIN - Duane Ludwig - May/22/2004 -- K-1 MMA - Romanex
2 LW - 2004 - MAY - Fighters & Broadcasters Poll
2 LW - 2004 - May 20 - MMA Collective-Ufight
5 LW - 2004 - APR(3-24) - Josh Gross-MaxFighting
2 LW> - 2004 - Apr 12 - Stephen Quadros Top 10
5 LW - 2004 - Feb 28 - MMA Fighting

WIN - Matt Hughes - Jan/31/2004 -- UFC 46 - Supernatural
1 WW - 2004 - Jan 20 - ADCC MMA Rankings
1 WW - 2003 - DEC - Fighters & Broadcasters Poll
1 WW - 2003 - DEC - Full Contact Fighter
*NOV1:Hughes>Trigg*
1 P4P - 2003 - Oct 31 - MMA Media Top 10
1 WW - 2003 - NOV - MMA Fighting
1 WW - 2003 - Nov 10 - Stephen Quadros Top 10

WIN - Takanori Gomi - Oct/10/2003 -- ROTR 4 - Rumble on the Rock 4
2 LW - 2003 - OCT - Fighters & Broadcasters Poll
9 LW> - 2003 - Sep 28 - Stephen Quadros Top 10
2 LW - 2003 - Sep 27 - MMA News
2 LW - 2003 - SEP - Fighters & Broadcasters Poll
1 LW - 2003 - JUN - Associated Fight Press

WIN - Matt Serra - Sep/27/2002 -- UFC 39 - The Warriors Return
6 LW> - 2002 - Sep 4 - Stepehen Quadros
9 LW - 2002 - Jun 11 - MMA Media Top 10

WIN - Caol Uno - Nov/2/2001 -- UFC 34 - High Voltage
2 LW - 2001 - OCT - Full Contact Fighter
2 LW - 2001 - OCT (13?) - MMA Media Top 10
2 LW> - 2001 - Oct 1 - Stephen Quadors

WIN - Din Thomas - Jun/29/2001 -- UFC 32 - Showdown in the Meadowlands
3 LW> - 2001 - Jun 14 - MMA Media Top 10
4 LW> - 2001 - Jun 1 - Stepehen Quadros
4 LW> - 2001 - JAN (Dec?) - MMA Writers Top 10


DRAW - Jon Fitch - Feb/27/2011 -- UFC 127 - Penn vs. Fitch
9 P4P - 2011 - Feb 17 - Yahoo Sports MMA P4P
7 P4P - 2011 - Feb 1 - MMA Bay (U.K.)
10 P4P - 2011 - Jan 25 - 411mania MMA P4P
2 WW - 2011 - Feb 21 - L.A. Times MMA Rankings
2 WW - 2011 - Feb 16 - MMA Weekly
2 WW - 2011 - Feb 16 - Sherdog
3 WW - 2011 - Feb 1 - Fight Matrix-Published
2 WW - 2011 - Jan 27 - Bloody Elbow-USAToday

DRAW - Caol Uno - Feb/28/2003 -- UFC 41 - Onslaught
4 LW - 2003 - FEB - Associated Fight Press
4 LW - 2003 - Feb 15 - MMA Media Top 10
4 LW - 2003 - Jan 31 - Fighters & Broadcasters Poll
3 LW - 2003 - Jan 27 - MMA News
3 LW> - 2002 - Dec 2 - Stepehen Quadros


LOSS - Rory MacDonald - Dec/8/2012 -- UFC on Fox 5 - Henderson vs. Diaz
7 WW - 2012 - Dec 5 - Globo-Sport TV (Brazil)
10 WW - 2012 - Nov 27 - Bloody Elbow-Meta Rankings
8 WW - 2012 - Nov 22 - SB Nation
9 WW - 2012 - Nov 21 - MMA Weekly
10 WW - 2012 - Nov 21 - L.A. Times MMA Rankings

LOSS - Nick Diaz - Oct/29/2011 -- UFC 137 - Penn vs. Diaz
14 P4P - 2011 - Oct 13 - Yahoo Sports MMA P4P
13 P4P - 2011 - Oct 4 - 411mania MMA P4P
3 WW - 2011 - Oct 17 - L.A. Times MMA Rankings
3 WW - 2011 - Oct 13 - MMA Weekly
6 WW - 2011 - Oct 11 - Sherdog
4 WW - 2011 - Oct 3 - MMA Bay (U.K.)
4 WW - 2011 - Oct 2 - Fight Matrix-Published

LOSS - Frankie Edgar - Aug/28/2010 -- UFC 118 - Edgar vs. Penn 2
4 P4P - 2010 - Aug 13 - Sherdog
6 P4P - 2010 - Aug 13 - Yahoo Sports MMA P4P
7 P4P - 2010 - Aug 6 - Josh Gross-Sports Illustrated
1 LW - 2010 - Aug 26 - Bloody Elbow-USAToday
1 LW - 2010 - Aug 24 - MMA Weekly
1' LW - 2010 - Aug 18 - MMA Torch
1 LW - 2010 - Aug 10(13) - Independent World MMA Rankings
1 LW - 2010 - Aug 10 - L.A. Times MMA Rankings

LOSS - Frankie Edgar - Apr/10/2010 -- UFC 112 - Invincible
7 LW - 2010 - Apr 6(9) - Independent World MMA Rankings
7 LW - 2010 - Apr 4 - Fight Matrix-Published
7 LW - 2010 - Apr 2 - Sherdog
7 LW - 2010 - Apr 2 - Josh Gross-Sports Illustrated
3 LW - 2010 - Apr 1 - MMA Bay (U.K.)

LOSS - Georges St. Pierre - Jan/31/2009 -- UFC 94 - St. Pierre vs. Penn 2
4 P4P - 2009 - Jan 25 - Micheal D Smith-MMA Fighting
2 P4P - 2009 - Jan 2 - Sherdog
3 P4P - 2008 - Dec 31 - Yahoo Sports MMA P4P
1 WW - 2009 - Jan 29 - Sherdog
1 WW - 2009 - Jan 21 - WAMMA Rankings
1 WW - 2009 - JAN (21) - Bloody Knux
1 WW - 2009 - Jan 20 - MMA Weekly
1 WW - 2009 - Jan 7 - Bloody Elbow-Meta Rankings

LOSS - Matt Hughes - Sep/23/2006 -- UFC 63 - Hughes vs. Penn
3 P4P - 2006 - Jun 16 (26) - MMA Fighting
1 WW - 2006 - SEP (20) - Bloody Knux
1 WW - 2006 - Sep 12 - MMA Weekly
1 WW - 2006 - SEP - Full Contact Fighter
3 WW - 2006 - AUG - Associated Fight Press
1 WW - 2006 - May 31 - Fighters & Broadcasters Poll

LOSS - Georges St. Pierre - Mar/4/2006 -- UFC 58 - USA vs. Canada
8 P4P - 2006 - Feb 24 (27) - MMA Fighting
3 WW - 2006 - FEB - Associated Fight Press
2 WW - 2006 - Feb 24 (27) - MMA Fighting
3 WW - 2006 - Feb 14 - Fighters & Broadcasters Poll
2 WW - 2006 - JAN (8) - Bloody Knux

LOSS - Lyoto Machida - Mar/26/2005 -- K-1 - Hero's 1
10 LHW - 2005 - Mar 2 - ADCC MMA Rankings

LOSS - Jens Pulver - Jan/11/2002 -- UFC 35 - Throwdown
1 LW - 2001 - DEC - Associated Fight Press
1 LW - 2001 - Nov 19 - MMA Media Top 10
1 LW> - 2001 - Nov 6 - Stepehen Quadros
1 LW - 2001 - OCT - Full Contact Fighter

 

[CleverScreename]

MMA-Aficionado is a GSP nuthugger, talking about Penn nuthuggers.

What a great thread.

 

[Street Level]

MMA ELO considers Penn to have the most difficult strength of schedule across his career than any other fighter. No. 2 is GSP, and No. 3 is Cain Velasquez.

http://www.mma-elo.com/me_hist.php?fighter=558

It's crazy, isn't it? True, his record is not uber impressive if you're looking at numbers strictly, but he has fought absolute killers every fight. How mant LW/WW fighters could go 3 rounds with Machida and not get put to sleep? That was a damn close fight too and add that it was in a ring (better suited for striking) and BJ's accomplisments (even losses) is awesome.
And I would also add that BJ is one of GSP's better wins as another poster already said.

 

[jlazer]

BJ PEnn defended his titles, had many wins over #1 ranked guys, and was never on the winning side of a controversial split decision. Imo, that gives him a better career than decision Dan.

Bj got handed his titles. Dan fight WAY tougher competition and had way better wins

 

[jlazer]

BJ still has a strong argument for best LW of all time, certainly best LW career. Absolutely the UFC LW that the most people wanted to see fight.

Not even close to best lw career. He was like 11-4-1.

 

[ngn21]

penn is a legend