Penn overrated?

ImPitPatPuncher said:
2 of the 3 fighters you named were former UFC champions.
Stevenson is a TUF 2 winner with wins over Guillard, Pellegrino, Tibau and Diaz aka former or current top 10 lw's and has fought at ww and lw
And how do you count his win over Gomi? he is considered as the lw GOAT
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Great. Now pulver is a legendary win and beating a TUF winner is something to brag about.

I think his win over Gomi was a great win. 2nd best of his career
 
chinarice said:
He didn't beat GSP, ever.

If you think he won the 1st fight, we can thank the MMA GODS that you will never be a judge because no matter how you try to spin it, he didn't win the 2nd or 3rd round.
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no but he sure put a beating on georges in the first... that one of my fondest penn memories. to be fair though its somewhere in the middle. if you dont consider penn one of the greats your silly because anderson does and his opinion means more than all of ours combined. if you think hes the greatest fighter that ever lived your obviously taking it a little over board.

its fair to say he is still in contention for the lw goat spot though. cuz if you take all of his weight jumping and remove it from the equation the man has lost 3 fights in his career at lw and all 3 were for titles and one of those is controversial at that. .
 
jlazer said:
Well for one, it was all a championship run. It was good ENTIRE run. Second, most of the top ranked LWs were outside the ufc. The UFCs LW division was terribly weak.

Yes he beat Hughes and Gomi. Great wins.
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It was a championship run in the the #1 premiere organization in the world, Pride was defunct. Yes, there were still plenty of great LW fighters in Japan but imo the scene was on a slippery decline when Penn started dominating and he already proved himself against Japan's #1 LW.

Hughes and Gomi were nothing short of legendary wins, some of the best wins of any fighter in the history of the MMA when you look at the context.
 
xelad1 said:
I don't have to re read your post but I can summarize why it's crap:

You postulate that BJ is overrated. You then omit some of the biggest reasons why he's rated so highly (ie his accomplishments in 2 division, willingness to fight at any weight).

You then tell me that those wins are irrelevant and only LW matters (which once again, isn't the only reason BJ is lauded).

You cite his record of 16-9 which includes his losses at various weights, and say that he shouldn't be considered among the greats. Even though compared to the other greats he is the only one who has stepped up in weight and been competitive.

Gomi and Hughes matter considerably. If you want to talk only LW run then Gomi REALLY matters considering he was the p4p best LW before BJ... so yeah it kind of changes your whole post.

You clearly didn't put much thought into it. You aren't likely to find arguments from Penn nuthuggers here... just people who actually know who Penn has fought and can contextualize why his run was impressive.
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You are the worst kind of Penn nuthugger, sherdogger, and tryhard pseudo-intellectual moron. Wait until you make it into the real world, if ever. Trying to sound intellectual won't get you anywhere in the business world if its not backed up with results and your posts and general comprehension skills leave a lot to be desired.

Just because you use the words postulate and contextualise does not mean your arguments are not nonsensical. You clearly need to re-read my post.

The point I am making is not reliant on listing every fight Penn has won. Nor is the fact he has fought at different weight classes relevant to the question of how great he is. It is relevant to how much of a warrior he is and I praised him for that. But losing 80% of your fights at WW and every fight above WW does not make one great. It does prove he is fearless.

I never said his 2 WW wins are irrelevant. You are simply making shit up. His first Hughes win was very impressive. So was his Gomi win. Neither of them change my point or suddenly put him in the league of GSP, Silva etc.

I have watched every single Penn fight. Yes every single one. You state people can "contextualise" why his run was impressive. My post calls him "impressive". I never claimed his run was not impressive.

You have no good arguments so you are just making things up and again clearly need to re-read my post.

I am correct in asserting Penn is overrated.

And you are an idiot, the worst kind of idiot. And I can contextualise that by reading your vomitous posts.

I hope no one ever employs you in anything that counts because you will be a disaster.
 
memphis0789 said:
no but he sure put a beating on georges in the first... that one of my fondest penn memories. to be fair though its somewhere in the middle. if you dont consider penn one of the greats your silly because anderson does and his opinion means more than all of ours combined. if you think hes the greatest fighter that ever lived your obviously taking it a little over board.

its fair to say he is still in contention for the lw goat spot though. cuz if you take all of his weight jumping and remove it from the equation the man has lost 3 fights in his career at lw and all 3 were for titles and one of those is controversial at that. .
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GSP / Penn II is the definition of a beating. Eye poking someone and clipping them with 1 punch, breaking their nose, is not a beating.

I am not sure if by quoting me you are implying that I think he isn't great, which is anything but true.
 
ImPitPatPuncher said:
No I give up because you're ignorant and never went into detail into any of my posts.
And I'm not even a BJ Penn fan.

At least I don't discredit his career. Because BJ is imo one of the best wins of the guy in your avatar
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You're not even a BJ Penn fan!? haha - ok then... I didnt respond in detail to your posts because I don't want to spend hours repeating myself. I have responded in detail to others and addressed many of the points in your posts. read my responses.

Key point is I never said BJ isnt great. I said he is overrated because people think he is among the very best. See the difference.

Then all these morons jump on here and say how can I say he is shit, how can i say he isnt great, blah blah blah. I never actually said any of that.

He should be rated as great/upper tier but not at among the very best.
 
andyeinstein said:
You make it sound like Hughes was a can.
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No, its not a comment on Hughes ability. he certainly wasnt a can. Its just that his wins against Hughes dont change my point as I've said many times since everyone keeps whining that i didnt mention Hughes.
 
If Penn himself were say 22, and coming up now, he would be a much better version of himself in order to compete. I have no doubt he would easily beat today's Penn.

You can only judge athletes in their own eras I think.
 
chinarice said:
He didn't beat GSP, ever.

If you think he won the 1st fight, we can thank the MMA GODS that you will never be a judge because no matter how you try to spin it, he didn't win the 2nd or 3rd round.
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Both guys had almost no offense in the 3rd round so I thought it was splitting hairs to decide who won that fight anyway, but I'm not a judge.


I'm not the type to think that it means anything to dispute a decision at this point anyway. At some point we should all just accept the result and move on and I mean that for every fight, bad decisions and all.
 
skills and potential - not overrated

Work ethic - iffy

so yeah I can see the argument being made. If he had say, Diego Sanchez's work ethic and drive, combined with his natural talent. He could be up there with Gsp, Anderson, Bones, Fedor.
 
JammG said:
If you're only saying that he's a step below the GOAT candidates, then that's fair enough, and how I see it as well... I don't think, however, that anyone, except for the most die-hard nut-huggers, really bring him into the GOAT discussions anymore.

So, because of that, I don't think he's overrated. He is, as you said, a step below the GOAT candidates. Still a legend and hall of fame material though. If anything, I think you're overestimating fans opinions on him.
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Its also the excessive glorification of his wins (and losses) by so many that i don't like and the reason i think he is overrated.

He is thought of as this unbelievable fighter merely because he fought at higher weight classes, not because he consistently won at those higher weight classes.
 
GordoBarraBJJ said:
If he had say, Diego Sanchez's work ethic and drive, combined with his natural talent. He could be up there with Gsp, Anderson, Bones, Fedor.
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That still wouldn't have stopped him from taking fights at 170, 185 and Machida, while he's actually fought smaller than some 145ers by today's standards.
 
TeamTanner said:
That still wouldn't have stopped him from taking fights at 170, 185 and Machida, while he's actually fought smaller than some 145ers by today's standards.
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I talking about actually putting in S & C day to day; not getting fat and eating cheese burgers, spam, burritos. I think he would have done better at 170 had he acted like a professional. But he found it easier to make excuses about S & C and not put in the work - as well as just bringing in people to train with him in hilo rather than actually being part of a team of guys who are all pushing you; rather than sparring partners brought in to make you look good.
 
BJ still has a strong argument for best LW of all time, certainly best LW career. Absolutely the UFC LW that the most people wanted to see fight.
 
It depends how you rate him. In the GOAT discussion to me he's the best fighter of all time to fight below 170 pounds. He's a multi division champ and has only been finished twice by the two best WW's ever. Sure he's lost a ton of close decisions and he's a shell of what he once was. I still think he can make one more run at FW(which will fail) before retiring.
 
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