Social Landmark Dutch study shows those pesky conservatives were right all along: Kids grow out of "gender confusion"

[Hog-train]

I didn't ignore what you said, I acknowledged it in my first reply when I guessed at your logic and offered mine. I thought I was pretty clear.

How much evidence do you think you have? How much do you think is necessary?

Regret following gender procedures is incredibly low. Should we close every (non gender related) clinic that has a higher regret rate? Should we ban every procedure? We'd be left with very few clinics and hospitals.

If Tavistock and Kaiser didn't follow established protocols, I have no issue with there being repercussions. But don't think there aren't protocols and they aren't incredibly cautious.

You're assuming those clinics are the norm but you aren't really making that case. Maybe step out of your comfort zone, pretend you have a kid with gender dysphoria, and look into what options you have.

There is not enough of a body of evidence to claim regret is low. Because the greater number of people transitioning happened in the last 5 years. You need to analyze and track a large number of patients 10-20 years down the line. That hasn't happened yet.

A lot of these transition drugs will have long term consequences years down the line. People who start gender affirming drugs have to be on it for life.

These days, you don't even need to have gender dysphoria to be considered trans. There's a lot of nonbinary people who don't have gender dysphoria getting on these drugs. All the trans reddit communities have instructions and tips on how to get these drugs BTW.

On top of that, there are no reputable studies on the long term side effects of these drugs.

So I am completely against giving these drugs to kids under 18.

 

[Loiosh]

There is not enough of a body of evidence to claim regret is low. Because the greater number of people transitioning happened in the last 5 years. You need to analyze and track a large number of patients 10-20 years down the line. That hasn't happened yet.

A lot of these transition drugs will have long term consequences years down the line. People who start gender affirming drugs have to be on it for life.

On top of that, there are no reputable studies on the long term side effects of these drugs.

So I am completely against giving these drugs to kids under 18.

That's a catch 22 and it feels disingenuous.

I still don't understand why you guys feel it's OK to make these decisions on behalf of children and their parents. You keep saying we don't know the effects but the drugs have been in use for decades. No, for trans kids you need a much higher level of proof, and if that's provided, guaranteed you'd need higher still.

You haven't answered any of my questions and you keep spitting out conservative talking points. I'm not saying you're conservative, but you're leaning hard on their propaganda.

Fifty years from now when these bans are gone, people are going to look back and think we were as primitive as people who jailed gay people before they evolved into sending them into conversion camps.

 

[Hog-train]

That's a catch 22 and it feels disingenuous.

I still don't understand why you guys feel it's OK to make these decisions on behalf of children and their parents. You keep saying we don't know the effects but the drugs have been in use for decades. No, for trans kids you need a much higher level of proof, and if that's provided, guaranteed you'd need higher still.

IDGAF what you think "feels" disingenuous. I'm going by straight facts.

Yea the drugs have been used for decades - for OTHER purposes.

The primary puberty blocking drug, Lupron, is only FDA approved for really bad cancer cases and also to chemically castrate pedophiles.

There are ZERO long term studies on the negative effects these will have on transitioners. That's a fact.

You haven't answered any of my questions and you keep spitting out conservative talking points. I'm not saying you're conservative, but you're leaning hard on their propaganda.

WTF are you talking about. I'm answering your questions straight up and they're not talking points. Nor am I a conservative.

Fifty years from now when these bans are gone, people are going to look back and think we were as primitive as people who jailed gay people before they evolved into sending them into conversion camps.

All the liberal European countries that started doing these transitions for kids and are more liberal than the US have STOPPED giving these drugs to kids.

Sweden was the first country in the world to introduce legal gender reassignment. They completely stopped the practice of giving the drugs to kids.

So nah - 50 years from now people are going to think we were crazy to do this to kids.

Sweden puts brakes on treatments for trans minors

Sweden, the first country to introduce legal gender reassignment, has begun restricting gender reassignment hormone treatments for minors, as it, like many Western countries, grapples with the highly-sensitive…

www.france24.com

 

[kflo]

Claiming puberty blockers are harmless and reversible over and over again doesn’t make it so.

I’m not making it up. I’m quoting top institutions in the field.

 

[Jack V Savage]

You follow me around like a puppy lately man...

Well, you posted something, I checked it, and I found out you were lying, and then I posted proof. Then you've been desperately spinning and somehow questioning my honesty even though you were the one caught lying.

I could just as easily level claims against you that are b******* and then pretend I've won by providing "proof" but that's not my game.

Yeah, your game is never to provide any substantiation for your claims and just constantly make personal attacks on decent people.

 

[Hog-train]

I’m not making it up. I’m quoting top institutions in the field.

The NHS removed language saying puberty blockers are reversible.

"We have concluded that there is not enough evidence to support the safety or clinical effectiveness of puberty suppressing hormones to make the treatment routinely available at this time," an NHS spokesperson told ABC News."

England's NHS halts puberty blockers for transgender youth amid research efforts

England's National Health Service has banned the use of puberty blockers for the treatment of gender dysphoria or gender incongruence in minors.

abcnews.go.com

 

[Loiosh]

IDGAF what you think "feels" disingenuous. I'm going by straight facts.

Yea the drugs have been used for decades - for OTHER purposes.

The primary puberty blocking drug, Lupron, is only FDA approved for really bad cancer cases and also to chemically castrate pedophiles.

There are ZERO long term studies on the negative effects these will have on transitioners. That's a fact.



WTF are you talking about. I'm answering your questions straight up and they're not talking points. Nor am I a conservative.



All the liberal European countries that started doing these transitions for kids and are more liberal than the US have STOPPED giving these drugs to kids.

Sweden was the first country in the world to introduce legal gender reassignment. They completely stopped the practice of giving the drugs to kids.

So nah - 50 years from now people are going to think we were crazy to do this to kids.

Sweden puts brakes on treatments for trans minors

Sweden, the first country to introduce legal gender reassignment, has begun restricting gender reassignment hormone treatments for minors, as it, like many Western countries, grapples with the highly-sensitive…

www.france24.com

You're cherry-picking the facts you like and definitely ignoring inconvenient questions and comments. I specifically said I wasn't calling you a conservative, you're just an ally leaning on their propaganda refusing to consider other alternatives. I know you DGAF, I don't have a problem with that. I'm just looking for you to say something compelling.

The movement away from treatments has been almost entirely political, and it's clearly temporary. Sweden and the UK aren't banning them, they're putting them on pause. They're going to generate studies. The studies will tell us what we already know.

If you look at discussions of Tavistock it's generally acknowledged the biggest problem was that there was only one institute for England and Wales handling all gender concerns and they were overwhelmed. They weren't equipped to follow the therapeutic protocols, and this is being addressed. Plans usually requiring more than twenty sessions were being processed in three to six, which obviously wasn't enough.

The lawsuits against Kaiser are all funded by militant conservative groups, and I'm sure the promise of tens of millions of dollars was pretty tempting. I have no doubt if they were convincing women to accuse men of rape you'd find it pretty suspicious.

Puberty blockers were used to treat precocious puberty starting in the 1980s, going on fifty years ago. It doesn't matter why they were used, we know how they effect the human body.

I'm pretty sure I'm right about how this will look in fifty years.

It shouldn't matter if you're against it unless it's your child.

 

[Loiosh]

Well, you posted something, I checked it, and I found out you were lying, and then I posted proof. Then you've been desperately spinning and somehow questioning my honesty even though you were the one caught lying.

Yeah, your game is never to provide any substantiation for your claims and just constantly make personal attacks on decent people.

For the love of God put him on ignore and move on.

I don't understand why you engage with people who do nothing but attack you.

 

[Jack V Savage]

For the love of God put him on ignore and move on.

I don't understand why you engage with people who do nothing but attack you.

Truth is always just tantalizingly out of reach. I really figured the first time I posted the evidence would end it. Then I was kind of curious to see how he'd spin away from it. Just hard to relate to someone like that. I think he has some pretty severe issues (he's talked about being in a cult--that his "spiritual leader" is saint-like and can perform miracles). I don't try to add to it, but it's kind of interesting.

 

[kflo]

98% people who go on puberty blockers end up getting gender affirming care. So starting puberty blockers is almost a guarantee that they will end up medically transitioning.

https://www.npr.org/2022/10/26/1131398960/gender-affirming-care-trans-puberty-suppression-teens

Ok?

Maybe the small minority that take puberty blockers are screened more than some try to suggest.

Van der Loos emphasizes that mental health support is a key part of the treatment at Amsterdam UMC, with a diagnostic evaluation prior to a patient starting puberty suppression, and continued mental health care during treatment. As a result, van der Loos wasn't surprised to find that most of those who began treatment chose to continue it.

"These were people that were supported by a mental health professional before start of treatment, [and] also after start of treatment. So based on that and our clinical experience, it's not really surprising that so many people continue to treatment later on," she says.

The NHS removed language saying puberty blockers are reversible.

"We have concluded that there is not enough evidence to support the safety or clinical effectiveness of puberty suppressing hormones to make the treatment routinely available at this time," an NHS spokesperson told ABC News."

England's NHS halts puberty blockers for transgender youth amid research efforts

England's National Health Service has banned the use of puberty blockers for the treatment of gender dysphoria or gender incongruence in minors.

abcnews.go.com

The Endocrine Society, an international organization of more than 18,000 endocrinologists, calls the medication "fully reversible." Once blockers are stopped, puberty continues with little to no proven side effects, according to health professionals.

But good on NHS (and other Europe countries) for continuing to use puberty blockers but to require participation in clinical study.

 

[Hog-train]

You're cherry-picking the facts you like and definitely ignoring inconvenient questions and comments. I specifically said I wasn't calling you a conservative, you're just an ally leaning on their propaganda refusing to consider other alternatives. I know you DGAF, I don't have a problem with that. I'm just looking for you to say something compelling.

The movement away from treatments has been almost entirely political, and it's clearly temporary. Sweden and the UK aren't banning them, they're putting them on pause.

What facts am I cherry picking?

They're going to generate studies. The studies will tell us what we already know.

And this statement makes zero sense. Are you senile?

They're going to do studies. And then you say the studies already tell us what we know.

How TF do the studies tell us what we already know if they haven't done the studies yet.

If you look at discussions of Tavistock it's generally acknowledged the biggest problem was that there was only one institute for England and Wales handling all gender concerns and they were overwhelmed. They weren't equipped to follow the therapeutic protocols, and this is being addressed. Plans usually requiring more than twenty sessions were being processed in three to six, which obviously wasn't enough.

It doesn't matter if they were overwhelmed or any other reason. The result is the same. It became a rubber stamp for approving gender care for kids that didn't need it.

And the NHS in England already stated - "We have concluded that there is not enough evidence to support the safety or clinical effectiveness of puberty suppressing hormones to make the treatment routinely available at this time," an NHS spokesperson told ABC News." See post above.

The lawsuits against Kaiser are all funded by militant conservative groups, and I'm sure the promise of tens of millions of dollars was pretty tempting. I have no doubt if they were convincing women to accuse men of rape you'd find it pretty suspicious.

How about Chloe Cole? Really irrelevant who funded what lawsuit if the case has validity.

Puberty blockers were used to treat precocious puberty starting in the 1980s, going on fifty years ago. It doesn't matter why they were used, we know how they effect the human body.

Precocious puberty is not the same thing as gender dysphoria. Precocious puberty is a physical medical condition where kids start puberty at like age 7-9.

Gender dysphoria is a mental disorder. Two completely different things.

 

[Hog-train]

Ok?

Maybe the small minority that take puberty blockers are screened more than some try to suggest.

You're trying to claim puberty blockers are "fully reversible."

It's not fully reversible if the vast majority of kids 98% go down a path where they definitely get hormonal drugs (which are not reversible.)

So the "fully reversible" is a moot point.

The Endocrine Society, an international organization of more than 18,000 endocrinologists, calls the medication "fully reversible." Once blockers are stopped, puberty continues with little to no proven side effects, according to health professionals.

But good on NHS (and other Europe countries) for continuing to use puberty blockers but to require participation in clinical study.

The people approved for puberty blockers in European clinical studies are a TINY minority. The majority can no longer get it.

And to say one medical organization says it's ok. Well I'm listing another medical organization that says it's NOT ok.

So there is no medical consensus like you falsely tried to portray.

 

[Sinister]

The NHS removed language saying puberty blockers are reversible.

"We have concluded that there is not enough evidence to support the safety or clinical effectiveness of puberty suppressing hormones to make the treatment routinely available at this time," an NHS spokesperson told ABC News."

England's NHS halts puberty blockers for transgender youth amid research efforts

England's National Health Service has banned the use of puberty blockers for the treatment of gender dysphoria or gender incongruence in minors.

abcnews.go.com

That's because they cited the Cass report. And Dr. Cass has recently stated her report was used overzealously and that blockers are more likely  underprescribed.

 

[Hog-train]

That's because they cited the Cass report. And Dr. Cass has recently stated her report was used overzealously and that blockers are more likely  underprescribed.

That's not what happened at all.

Dr. Hilary Cass did comprehensive review of gender care guidelines and found gender medicine was based on very shaky foundations and shaky studies.

Gender medicine ‘built on shaky foundations’, Cass review finds

Analysis finds most research underpinning clinical guidelines, hormone treatments and puberty blockers to be low quality

www.theguardian.com

Then she got death threats.

Hilary Cass warned of threats to safety after ‘vile’ abuse over NHS gender services review

The paediatrician, who has been advised to stop using public transport, describes ‘straight disinformation’ about report

www.theguardian.com

 

[kflo]

You're trying to claim puberty blockers are "fully reversible."

It's not fully reversible if the vast majority of kids 98% go down a path where they definitely get hormonal drugs (which are not reversible.)

So the "fully reversible" is a moot point.

That’s not at all true. Whether they continue doesn’t determine whether it’s reversible. For those who don’t continue, it’s reversible.

The people approved for puberty blockers in European clinical studies are a TINY minority. The majority can no longer get it.

And to say one medical organization says it's ok. Well I'm listing another medical organization that says it's NOT ok.

So there is no medical consensus like you falsely tried to portray.

you didn’t list any medical organization that said it’s not ok. They want to study it more to be sure before making it more readily prescribed. So they will continue to give puberty blockers to kids. Or are you do you think they are saying it’s not ok but we’re going to still give it to kids anyway?

 

[Loiosh]

Truth is always just kind of tantalizingly out of reach. I really figured the first time I posted the evidence would end it. Then I was kind of curious to see how he'd spin away from it. Just kind of hard to relate to someone like that. I think he has some pretty severe issues (he's talked about being in a cult--that his "spiritual leader" is saint-like and can perform miracles). I don't try to add to it, but it's kind of interesting.

It doesn't really seem like a productive use of your time.

It would be different if he brought some interesting arguments to the table, but I don't see that happening.

 

[Loiosh]

What facts am I cherry picking?



And this statement makes zero sense. Are you senile?

They're going to do studies. And then you say the studies already tell us what we know.

How TF do the studies tell us what we already know if they haven't done the studies yet.




It doesn't matter if they were overwhelmed or any other reason. The result is the same. It became a rubber stamp for approving gender care for kids that didn't need it.

And the NHS in England already stated - "We have concluded that there is not enough evidence to support the safety or clinical effectiveness of puberty suppressing hormones to make the treatment routinely available at this time," an NHS spokesperson told ABC News." See post above.



How about Chloe Cole? Really irrelevant who funded what lawsuit if the case has validity.



Precocious puberty is not the same thing as gender dysphoria. Precocious puberty is a physical medical condition where kids start puberty at like age 7-9.

Gender dysphoria is a mental disorder. Two completely different things.

We're spinning our wheels here so I'm going to call it. I didn't expect to change your mind but had hoped you might offer something new and interesting.

 

[Hog-train]

That’s not at all true. Whether they continue doesn’t determine whether it’s reversible. For those who don’t continue, it’s reversible.

Not true at all. Even puberty blockers alone haven't been proven to not have adverse side effects and safety.

"We have concluded that there is not enough evidence to support the safety or clinical effectiveness of puberty suppressing hormones to make the treatment routinely available at this time," an NHS spokesperson told ABC News."

you didn’t list any medical organization that said it’s not ok. They want to study it more to be sure before making it more readily prescribed. So they will continue to give puberty blockers to kids. Or are you do you think they are saying it’s not ok but we’re going to still give it to kids anyway?

The national health service that says there is not enough evidence to support the safety or clinical effectiveness of puberty blockers.

That means it's not ok to give to patients. You have to do long term studies first.

You don't haphazardly give medications to patients without determining safety, side effects and effectiveness.

And the medical associations in Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Finland, Holland and all the Scandinavian country's medical associations have ALSO stopped.

We're spinning our wheels here so I'm going to call it. I didn't expect to change your mind but had hoped you might offer something new and interesting.

WTF you just made a completely nonsensical statement.

You just said they are GOING TO DO STUDIES.

And then immediately said "The studies will tell us what we already know."

That makes no sense.

 

[kflo]

Not true at all. Even puberty blockers alone haven't been proven to not have adverse side effects and safety.

"We have concluded that there is not enough evidence to support the safety or clinical effectiveness of puberty suppressing hormones to make the treatment routinely available at this time," an NHS spokesperson told ABC News."



The national health service that says there is not enough evidence to support the safety or clinical effectiveness of puberty blockers.

That means it's not ok to give to patients. You have to do long term studies first.

You don't haphazardly give medications to patients without determining safety, side effects and effectiveness.

And the medical associations in Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Finland, Holland and all the Scandinavian country's medical associations have ALSO stopped.

None have stopped. They are all continuing to give to kids. They are just doing so as part of clinical studies. That’s for the places with restrictions. Many places don’t require being in a study because they are have decades of data and experience.

 

[Loiosh]

None have stopped. They are all continuing to give to kids. They are just doing so as part of clinical studies. That’s for the places with restrictions. Many places don’t require being in a study because they are have decades of data and experience.

I just spoke with my father, who is a doctor who was an executive in the pharmaceutical industry for decades. I asked him what was required to get a drug to market, which was his profession for a very long time.

He said to get a drug licensed they had to prove it was stable and did what it was supposed to do. A second factor was safety and they had to hit certain parameters (one look at possible side effects on most drugs shows how "safe" is subjective). Thirdly, a drug is licensed for a specific purpose, and "off label" use is illegal and opens you to enormous liability. This could be the problem if they haven't been licensed for treatment of dysphoria.

I mentioned the blocker pause in the UK and he said the UK was far more strict about getting drugs to market.

I mentioned the fact blockers had been on the market for almost fifty years and that people were complaining that there were no long term studies, and he said that was basically impossible. When any drug hits the market they are required to continue their safety analysis as standards change and different interactions arise in the population.

He's retired and has some time to kill, so I asked him to take a look at this issue and give me some feedback on why these can or can't be available.