Kyokushin: Your face=punch magnet?

[spacetime]

I didn't say he wasn't a great teacher - just that he was more of a fighter than an instructor. You come across instructors that aren't particularly great at teaching fine technical points but know how to develop students that can fight. Oyama I feel fit that category.

Kyokushin is a great tough style but from a syllabus perspective it's a mess in my opinion. Understanding of kata is very poor, very few practitioners can apply the other 60% of techniques in the syllabus in sparring (open hand strikes & uke in particular). I think that generally speaking like @biscuitsbrah said movement/footwork is very poor (outside a rare few) because footwork/movement in kyokushin is specialised to knockdown karate competition - outside of that format it really is not so good.

I'm curious about this movement issue. Is this ingrained in their muscle memory if they try out kickboxing rules against an equally skilled opponent? I've always assumed Kyokushin guys would handle themselves quite well. There's just so much in common technique-wise despite their crazy sparring.

 

[AshiharaFan]

GASP!
A Kyokushin guy advocating point-fighter tactics?!

Only in how the point fighters play the "distancing" game which I think they are very good at. And besides, it's still Karate.

A lot of Kyokushin instructors emphasize keeping your hands up and your guard tight. But that doesn't equate to proper punching defense -

True, but it's just as essential as punching defense and is still 100x better than NOT keeping your guard tight and your hands up.

also from my experience most instructors say to keep your hands up so you can guard properly against head kicks - although your shihan might be different.

I'd say my Shihan is different from the standpoint that he isn't competition oriented and places a heavy, heavy focus on what may or may not work in an actual unarmed physical altercation.

Sadly I don't think a lot of KK guys do know how to protect their heads and faces very well - well enough for knockdown that's about it. I think there is this false sense of security among Kyokushin practitioners that they can. You only really find out when you cross-over and try out other styles - something that the kyokushin practitioners I've come across don't do.

I agree with you and like you I have been able to avoid that pitfall because I trained muay Thai before stepping foot into my first KK dojo so I came in with a hands up, head movement, protect my face against punches AND kicks mentality.

I agree with you though that it's smarter to follow the point fighting game plan of keeping distance if you do KK and are in mma/kickboxing/mt/kudo sparring. But unfortunately you aren't really going to do that better than a point fighter or a mt/kickboxer/mma/kudo guy that fights from a distance. There's also the issue of what happens when someone bridges the distance.

By keeping distance I mean to do the OPPOSITE from what KK is known for which is face-to-face, nose-to-nose chest pounding. My intention was to convey a "explode inside, light him up and explode back out" way of thinking when I mention point fighting style distancing. In many ways I believe Kudo is the same way. I think Kudo fighters are some of the best fighters when it comes to gauging distance.

Also with the kyokushin instructors teaching kickboxing or MT. I'd personally prefer to learn from an MT or kickboxing instructor.

Same here. Although there are similarities between the two disciplines and they crossover and compliment one another very well, the differences between the two warrant learning MT or KB from a MT or KB instructor and learning KK from a KK instructor. But I do think a person who is solid in both MT and KK can be a standup nightmare.

Some kyokushin instructors do have kickboxing or MT experience - many don't though. Plus I think the level of instruction you'll get at an MT/kickboxing place will probably be better.

Agreed.

Personally I feel like to each his own but I think it's important to point out issues with styles. MT & kickboxing have their faults to. I feel though that these are kyokushin's faults.

Although that's part of the reason I stopped training kyokushin - it wasn't the main factor. I think the bigger problem with KK is that 30% of content all instructors know inside & out - the other 70% is nonsense. I don't think it's the fault of instructors - I think Mas Oyama had no idea what he was doing. Read his book - Mas Oyama's Karate - and you'd roll your eyes at some of the shit that's been written.

THIS! What keeps me interested and motivated to continue training despite the nonsense is I no longer care about fighting or competing. My sole purpose in training now is for fun and fitness. THAT'S IT!! I enjoy kumite and I enjoy the conditioning. And I've had a fascination with Kyokushin since I was a kid when I read my first Mas Oyama book (Mastering Karate). I guess that fascination still lingers. As far as real fights outside of the dojo is concerned, I consider myself well informed in awareness, avoidance, de-escalating, escape, PREEMPTION and the use of WEAPONS/TOOLS.

I've recently had a change in views with how Karate fits in RBSD.

 

[Hotora86]

(...)
I've recently had a change in views with how Karate fits in RBSD.

Could you elaborate on that last point? Curious to hear your thoughts.

 

[Tayski]

I didn't say he wasn't a great teacher - just that he was more of a fighter than an instructor. You come across instructors that aren't particularly great at teaching fine technical points but know how to develop students that can fight. Oyama I feel fit that category.

Kyokushin is a great tough style but from a syllabus perspective it's a mess in my opinion. Understanding of kata is very poor, very few practitioners can apply the other 60% of techniques in the syllabus in sparring (open hand strikes & uke in particular). I think that generally speaking like @biscuitsbrah said movement/footwork is very poor (outside a rare few) because footwork/movement in kyokushin is specialised to knockdown karate competition - outside of that format it really is not so good.

I think it's not instructors that are at fault - I think Mas Oyama was clueless about lots of things in Karate or his instructors passed on their cluelessness to him. Read through some of Mas Oyama's early karate books - there are a lot of errors, dubious applications and descriptions of techniques that will make you think what? Unfortunately Mas Oyama didn't have the resources we have today (i.e. internet) otherwise I'm sure he would have changed it himself.

But all these things were passed on to his students and then from his students to their students etc. It's not just a problem in Kyokushin - there are a lot of these problems with a lot of karate styles in general. The only plus for kyokushin is that students who learn this style can fight - just not imo better than someone doing MMA, Muay Thai, Boxing or kickboxing.

I would just add that some of the Kyokushin organisations and especially sub-styles like Ashihara, Enshin etc. are addressing some of those issues regarding syllabus, kata, application, rulesets with face punches etc. the way they believe Mas Oyama would have adapted his style through time while keeping its original values and spirit. The IFK and the Kyokushinkaikan are some examples on top of my head of organisation trying to develop Kyokushin the right direction, as well as the orgs from Ashihara, Enshin, Kudo etc.

 

[Tayski]

I'm curious about this movement issue. Is this ingrained in their muscle memory if they try out kickboxing rules against an equally skilled opponent? I've always assumed Kyokushin guys would handle themselves quite well. There's just so much in common technique-wise despite their crazy sparring.

I had a background in Shotokan before training in Kyokushin so I wouldn't take myself as a typical example.

However the Kyokushin guys I've trained with are extremely tough both mentally and physically and they tend to do well in any combat sport or martial art because they never give up and are very difficult to finish. The only thing is that because the sparring in Kyokushin is very often Knockdown sparring, a lot of them tend to have a style of walking their opponents down and taking the hits without trying to move around or dodge too much in the process, it's more a mentality of overpowering your opponent even if you're taking hits in the process. But that's not true for all of them as there are some Kyokushin fighters who do have some good footwork.

Kyokushin guys tend to do well in KB / MT. They just need to get used to the distancing and head punches coming at them, but they're usually be able to handle being hit very hard without going down and it's always scary sparring or fighting someone who's not afraid of getting hit and never gives up regardless of what you throw at them.

 

[Azam]

I would just add that some of the Kyokushin organisations and especially sub-styles like Ashihara, Enshin etc. are addressing some of those issues regarding syllabus, kata, application, rulesets with face punches etc. the way they believe Mas Oyama would have adapted his style through time while keeping its original values and spirit. The IFK and the Kyokushinkaikan are some examples on top of my head of organisation trying to develop Kyokushin the right direction, as well as the orgs from Ashihara, Enshin, Kudo etc.

I agree I think Enshin & Ashihara do a much better job. They still have some issues though - most styles do, even kudo has it's weaknesses.

Whatever someone decides to do they should always be aware of the strengths/weaknesses of what they are taught. Not just for sparring or fighting but just in general when you're learning anything be aware of what you can do with those tools you learn & what you can't.

 

[Azam]

Kyokushin guys tend to do well in KB / MT. They just need to get used to the distancing and head punches coming at them, but they're usually be able to handle being hit very hard without going down and it's always scary sparring or fighting someone who's not afraid of getting hit and never gives up regardless of what you throw at them.

They do better than other styles I agree. But I feel like kyokushin guys that do KB/MT generally tend to lag well behind guys that just learn kickboxing or MT. I don't think it's necessarily the techniques but more the range at which they are use to fighting doesn't really cross over and it becomes habit the longer you stick at it. I think that as well as boxing tends to be lacking in Kyokushin guys as well. There are pros though; I think kyokushin guys tend to have a really versatile & powerful kicking arsenal of techniques that might not always be as common in KB/MT - that and the fact they are very well conditioned to abuse to the body/legs.

 

[n.diazismylife1999]

. There are pros though; I think kyokushin guys tend to have a really versatile & powerful kicking arsenal of techniques that might not always be as common in KB/MT - that and the fact they are very well conditioned to abuse to the body/legs.

These are the reasons I'm glad of the time I spent in KK. Really helped me with my kicks, and now I'm almost always the best kicker in any gym I visit, despite spending the majority of my time these days focusing on hands.

Taekwondoka tend to have good legs and versatile kicks -- but they often lack power, especially with their roundhouse kicks. Kyokushinkai karateka tend to both be versatile AND powerful with their kicks, like you said.

 

[AshiharaFan]

Could you elaborate on that last point? Curious to hear your thoughts.

Basically, one-on-one match fights only happen in the sporting arena and you'll be lucky to have such a situation OUTSIDE of the sporting arena. What you will normally face outside of the sporting arena are weapons, multiple attackers, sneak attacks, someone obviously bigger and possibly stronger than you or any combination of these four factors. In all of these situations I have taken on a weapons/tools first mentality and empty hand combat as last resort in case my initial preference is basically fubar. And I've always had a preemptive, strike first mentality which I still hold to.

I absolutely LOVE kumite and I can find few things more thrilling than a rough and tumble sparring match in the dojo. But I leave my kumite mentality in the dojo and adopt a different mentality outside of the dojo.

 

[Hotora86]

Basically, one-on-one match fights only happen in the sporting arena and you'll be lucky to have such a situation OUTSIDE of the sporting arena. What you will normally face outside of the sporting arena are weapons, multiple attackers, sneak attacks, someone obviously bigger and possibly stronger than you or any combination of these four factors. In all of these situations I have taken on a weapons/tools first mentality and empty hand combat as last resort in case my initial preference is basically fubar. And I've always had a preemptive, strike first mentality which I still hold to.

I absolutely LOVE kumite and I can find few things more thrilling than a rough and tumble sparring match in the dojo. But I leave my kumite mentality in the dojo and adopt a different mentality outside of the dojo.

100% with you on this one. Having my back, shoulder and wrist injured multiple times I finally understood just how brittle and fragile the human body really is. Hitting people's skulls with an empty hand is a bad idea. Elbows are better but baseball bats are best. Not that I carry one with me all the time... but I always have a metal pen, which can serve as a kubotan - just in case.

Fighting someone in the street is probably the worst possible response to danger. Simply giving them what they want may hurt your ego but may also save your life. Running away is a decent response (if possible). Verbal deescalation or getting other people's attention can work. Not being in that situation in the first place by means of caution and avoidance is best.

 

[AshiharaFan]

100% with you on this one. Having my back, shoulder and wrist injured multiple times I finally understood just how brittle and fragile the human body really is. Hitting people's skulls with an empty hand is a bad idea. Elbows are better but baseball bats are best. Not that I carry one with me all the time... but I always have a metal pen, which can serve as a kubotan - just in case.

Fighting someone in the street is probably the worst possible response to danger. Simply giving them what they want may hurt your ego but may also save your life. Running away is a decent response (if possible). Verbal deescalation or getting other people's attention can work. Not being in that situation in the first place by means of caution and avoidance is best.

I agree 100% with everything you said. EVERYTHING!

In addition to carrying a metal pen I would suggest also looking into getting a tactical flashlight. I used to be far from impressed with the concept of tactical flashlights until a LEO friend of mine explained to me what they're best for and how to use them. Now, I am thoroughly convinced and swear by them. If you get the right one it can also double as a palm stick.

 

[j123]

100% with you on this one. Having my back, shoulder and wrist injured multiple times I finally understood just how brittle and fragile the human body really is. Hitting people's skulls with an empty hand is a bad idea. Elbows are better but baseball bats are best. Not that I carry one with me all the time... but I always have a metal pen, which can serve as a kubotan - just in case.

Fighting someone in the street is probably the worst possible response to danger. Simply giving them what they want may hurt your ego but may also save your life. Running away is a decent response (if possible). Verbal deescalation or getting other people's attention can work. Not being in that situation in the first place by means of caution and avoidance is best.

I agree 100% with everything you said. EVERYTHING!

In addition to carrying a metal pen I would suggest also looking into getting a tactical flashlight. I used to be far from impressed with the concept of tactical flashlights until a LEO friend of mine explained to me what they're best for and how to use them. Now, I am thoroughly convinced and swear by them. If you get the right one it can also double as a palm stick.

Just walk the streetz in decked out motorcycle armor

 

[Hotora86]

Just walk the streetz in decked out motorcycle armor

might as well go full Batman

 

[j123]

might as well go full Batman

Best deterrent, who gon fuck with you then?

 

[Hotora86]

Best deterrent, who gon fuck with you then?

Arkham Asylum.

 

[j123]

Arkham Asylum.

Spoiler

 

[Hotora86]

Spoiler

Nice. Would attend that party. Despite the Riddler being a large black woman.

 

[j123]

Nice. Would attend that party. Despite the Riddler being a large black woman.

All the female villains are 4 sizes larger

 

[Hotora86]

All the female villains are 4 sizes larger

The Standard American diet will do that to you, I've heard.

 

[Tayski]

Hitting people's skulls with an empty hand is a bad idea. Elbows are better but baseball bats are best.

Open hand strikes with the palm are good to hit someone's head too (teisho type of strikes), not just elbows. The way Bas Rutten used them in pancrase. They can work greatly and deliver quite a lot of power. Hitting someone's jaw, temple or even face with palm strikes does real damage when applied properly.

Both palm strikes and elbows are indeed better than punches as they don't break easy.