Kyokushin: Your face=punch magnet?

[Aerosol]

I know many fighters (Bas, GSP, Semmy...) with solid or even top striking praise kyokushin as one of the best TMA to train striking. I disagree.

(*I have background in Goju Ryu, ATA TKD, Kyokushin and several street fights )

Based on my personal experience Kyokushin provides exelent kicks, toughness, cardio, and teaches you to punch bareknucle so you get great technique and dont fuck up your knuckles and wrists.

BUT IT TURNS YOUR HEAD INTO A PUNCH MAGNET. I realized this the worst way, in the streets.
because since theres no punches to the head in kyokushin you dont train head movement. You are supposed to mainly block with your elbows or forearms. Some would argue thats good training for mma because of the small gloves but to train a MA where theres no punching to the head and no training head movement isnt practical.

IMO theres no reason to choose to train Kyokushin instead of Muay Thai.
I would assume fighters who recommend Kyokushin and have Kyokushin experience know what im talking about.

Of course maybe im missing something. Anyone with kyokushin training agrees?

PD: Im not a violent person, in fact the opposite so when I include streetfights in my background its because thats when ive tested my training in "reality" and got my face broken a couple times since I didnt move my friggin head.

 

[biscuitsbrah]

Should be fairly obvious. Learning how to react to getting punched in the face is one of the most important aspects of fighting...

 

[DoctorTaco]

Should be fairly obvious. Learning how to react to getting punched in the face is one of the most important aspects of fighting...

this is why I still get punched in the face a lot when I spar.

Or at least that's what I tell myself...

 

[RichardN7]

I know many fighters (Bas, GSP, Semmy...) with solid or even top striking praise kyokushin as one of the best TMA to train striking. I disagree.

(*I have background in Goju Ryu, ATA TKD, Kyokushin and several street fights )

Based on my personal experience Kyokushin provides exelent kicks, toughness, cardio, and teaches you to punch bareknucle so you get great technique and dont fuck up your knuckles and wrists.

BUT IT TURNS YOUR HEAD INTO A PUNCH MAGNET. I realized this the worst way, in the streets.
because since theres no punches to the head in kyokushin you dont train head movement. You are supposed to mainly block with your elbows or forearms. Some would argue thats good training for mma because of the small gloves but to train a MA where theres no punching to the head and no training head movement isnt practical.

IMO theres no reason to choose to train Kyokushin instead of Muay Thai.
I would assume fighters who recommend Kyokushin and have Kyokushin experience know what im talking about.

Of course maybe im missing something. Anyone with kyokushin training agrees?

PD: Im not a violent person, in fact the opposite so when I include streetfights in my background its because thats when ive tested my training in "reality" and got my face broken a couple times since I didnt move my friggin head.

It's true. Even Uriah Hall, who is trying his best to integrate boxing and head movement, is getting outpunched left and right by people he cant KTFO with spinning shit.
I'd think it's a great addition for people already skilled in boxing, MT or KB and have the foundation they'd need for proper basics of defense and offense in a fight. Then they can put the icing on the cake with Kyokushin, TKD etc...

 

[j123]

I know many fighters (Bas, GSP, Semmy...) with solid or even top striking praise kyokushin as one of the best TMA to train striking. I disagree.

(*I have background in Goju Ryu, ATA TKD, Kyokushin and several street fights )

Based on my personal experience Kyokushin provides exelent kicks, toughness, cardio, and teaches you to punch bareknucle so you get great technique and dont fuck up your knuckles and wrists.

BUT IT TURNS YOUR HEAD INTO A PUNCH MAGNET. I realized this the worst way, in the streets.
because since theres no punches to the head in kyokushin you dont train head movement. You are supposed to mainly block with your elbows or forearms. Some would argue thats good training for mma because of the small gloves but to train a MA where theres no punching to the head and no training head movement isnt practical.

IMO theres no reason to choose to train Kyokushin instead of Muay Thai.
I would assume fighters who recommend Kyokushin and have Kyokushin experience know what im talking about.

Of course maybe im missing something. Anyone with kyokushin training agrees?

PD: Im not a violent person, in fact the opposite so when I include streetfights in my background its because thats when ive tested my training in "reality" and got my face broken a couple times since I didnt move my friggin head.

Get in line pal, we're all around the 500-0 street fighting record mark

Spoiler

Ruleset like that changes the dynamic immensely. Even reading set ups is going to be difficult coming off those rules. MMA: If anything it'll make things worse with the smaller gloves. You can't really shell up decently like in MT or boxing (you can "double chicken wing block", but that leaves your body in open season if you wait longer than 3 strikes), so head movement is a bigger deal in MMA

 

[Azam]

As a former kyokushin guy I agree also.

It's a shame but unfortunately very true unless you go to the 1% of kyokushin gyms that also teach kickboxing or mt.

I learnt out the hard way - how static my head movement was when I started Kudo. I'm a bit luckier since I did another style before Kyokushin so I adapted pretty quick but I think the longer you do KK the longer those things start to become habits that are harder to break.

To put it simply - generally speaking - a student studying 1 year of MMA, MT, Kickboxing is going to be in a better position to fight or defend themselves than a student studying 1 year of KK.

A lot of kyokushin people don't acknowledge there is a problem and live in a bubble.

There is also the problem of learning so many things but making use of like 15% of what you're taught. People who have studied KK will know the stuff you do in kihon but never use in kumite or are never taught how to use in kumite - that I'm talking about.

That said it will make you into a very conditioned tough person but it's all kind of negated because all it takes is a good punch to the head to negate all that body conditioning & toughness.

 

[shinkyoku]

There is a problem. no doubt about that. But it is not as big as some would claim.
Yes, if you take a top level fighter who has based his career on trad knockdown fighting (=no punches to the face), then chances are that he has a lot of bad habits when put under other rules. Much like a boxer would have no clue how to deal with lowkicks (or kicks period). Perhaps I have had good luck in my experiences with kyokushin (and offshots) gyms, but I most gyms I have dealt with have had SOME regular training and sparring with headpunces allowed.

 

[j123]

Sometimes the small details like this sends ripples throughout the entire system. Interestingly in MMA there are gyms that don't work the transitions. These camps usually are very MT OR grappling. When they should be focused on position, gnp, gnp, gnp, sub (when given) but they don't, they get into BJJ mode and just hunt for subs. Countless times from these gyms I've seen them attempt armbars only to give up mount for bottom side (post-scramble). GnP is probably the most effective form of guard passing in MMA, but we still see BJJ-heavy guys go for the pass instead of bombing.

Not only is gnp good for the finish, but it completely gasses and demoralizes your opponent compared to sub hunting. Not to mention, no judge, not even Cecil Peoples will say you lost if you spent 4min plowing your opponent's face like a meat hammer.

Its more than just "Grappling + punches", the entire dynamic shifts and some gyms unfortunately underestimate it

 

[biscuitsbrah]

Sometimes the small details like this sends ripples throughout the entire system. Interestingly in MMA there are gyms that don't work the transitions. These camps usually are very MT OR grappling. When they should be focused on position, gnp, gnp, gnp, sub (when given) but they don't, they get into BJJ mode and just hunt for subs. Countless times from these gyms I've seen them attempt armbars only to give up mount for bottom side (post-scramble). GnP is probably the most effective form of guard passing in MMA, but we still see BJJ-heavy guys go for the pass instead of bombing.

Not only is gnp good for the finish, but it completely gasses and demoralizes your opponent compared to sub hunting. Not to mention, no judge, not even Cecil Peoples will say you lost if you spent 4min plowing your opponent's face like a meat hammer.

Its more than just "Grappling + punches", the entire dynamic shifts and some gyms unfortunately underestimate it

Lol. What does this post have to do with KK? I definitely agree though.

 

[Aerosol]

Great responses guys thanks!

Also I think the KK mindset of only go forward sets you up for punches

Let me say I love KK but I think would be even better making a couple changes because some people are getting the shit kicked out of themselves instead of effectively defending against attacks.

PD: Im not 500-0 in streetfights, more like 4-10-4 but the tables started to turn for me once I started prioritizing my head movement thats what im saying. Im no pushover though I just never fought someone smaller or weaker than me because theres no honor in that.

Cheers!

 

[a guy]

Sometimes the small details like this sends ripples throughout the entire system. Interestingly in MMA there are gyms that don't work the transitions. These camps usually are very MT OR grappling. When they should be focused on position, gnp, gnp, gnp, sub (when given) but they don't, they get into BJJ mode and just hunt for subs. Countless times from these gyms I've seen them attempt armbars only to give up mount for bottom side (post-scramble). GnP is probably the most effective form of guard passing in MMA, but we still see BJJ-heavy guys go for the pass instead of bombing.

Not only is gnp good for the finish, but it completely gasses and demoralizes your opponent compared to sub hunting. Not to mention, no judge, not even Cecil Peoples will say you lost if you spent 4min plowing your opponent's face like a meat hammer.

Its more than just "Grappling + punches", the entire dynamic shifts and some gyms unfortunately underestimate it

This. There are so many creative ways to use GNP in MMA. In fact GNP is an entire art on its own that doesn't exist in any sport other than MMA. It's one of the few aspects that's entirely unique to MMA, and it's still largely being innovated. Look at something like Diaz punching McGregor's head into an RNC, then I just saw a guy on the Tuesday night contender series do the same thing. Side note: anyone who hasn't seen that needs to watch the Snoopcast, it's brought more joy to my life than I can adequately describe here.

 

[jerunk]

I've always believed the same thing about kyokushin for exactly the same reason you stated. I've fought and sparred many kyokushin fighters and I've noticed the following: They get caught very easily with punches to the head. They don't train head movement and don't spar with punches to the head so this comes as no surprise. They have a weird style of pushing forward with weak strikes in order to set up and mask their powerful roundhouses or spinning kicks to the head. While this works good for setting up strikes in kyokushin rules, it's detrimental to any real type of fighting. It's extremely easy to pick them apart with well-timed power shots when they do this, leaving all areas vulnerable (especially the head). A lot of kyokushin guys don't know what it feels like to be hit with well-placed leg kicks as well, or actual damaging punches to the body (uppercuts/hooks to the liver vs just straight punches to the chest).

While there are a lot of good aspects of kyokushin over other forms of karate, I think training it does more harm than good when it comes to solidifying bad habits. I think if they just changed their ruleset to allowing punches to the head it would quickly reform the art for the better.

 

[j123]

PD: Im not 500-0 in streetfights, more like 4-10-4 but the tables started to turn for me once I started prioritizing my head movement thats what im saying. Im no pushover though I just never fought someone smaller or weaker than me because theres no honor in that.

Cheers!

Total can! We're looking for real fighters around here

10 losses? Ain't no way you getting in on Worldstar FC, I don't even think Felony Fights will sign you

 

[RabbitPunch36]

Can't too much head movement be an issue in mma or kickboxing? I have seen cro cop set someone up for the LHK by establishing the left straight and then later faking the left straight to have them slip the punch but instead take the LHK flush.

 

[Superhet]

Can't too much head movement be an issue in mma or kickboxing? I have seen cro cop set someone up for the LHK by establishing the left straight and then later faking the left straight to have them slip the punch but instead take the LHK flush.

I think this is a false concern for the most part. Yes you can get caught, but not moving your head is much more likely to be dangerous than doing so, and the nature of mma is that you can get caught with anything at anytime because there is such a vast number of feints, fakes and real attacks someone can put together to hit you with.

 

[Bekim]

Can't too much head movement be an issue in mma or kickboxing? I have seen cro cop set someone up for the LHK by establishing the left straight and then later faking the left straight to have them slip the punch but instead take the LHK flush.

But that is sometimes the case when your fighting someone that is very good at a certain attack, I pretty sure the other fighter would have studied CC and was trying to avoid it. It is sometimes easier said than done.

 

[Sano]

Can't too much head movement be an issue in mma or kickboxing? I have seen cro cop set someone up for the LHK by establishing the left straight and then later faking the left straight to have them slip the punch but instead take the LHK flush.

The nature of head movement is plentiful. It's just as much moving your weight back and forth getting closer and further away, as it is slipping side to side. You can blend blocks and parries and footwork in together with your head and hip movement, and suddenly you're very hard to read and nail with a punch, or even kick if you do it responsibly.

The easiest target to hit is someone with their hands down, head completely stationary and plodding forward towards you in a straight line. Unfortunately that constitutes head movement under Kyokushin rules, but that's the sport.

 

[n.diazismylife1999]

Can't too much head movement be an issue in mma or kickboxing? I have seen cro cop set someone up for the LHK by establishing the left straight and then later faking the left straight to have them slip the punch but instead take the LHK flush.

No.

Just like "too much blocking punches and kicks" can't be an issue -- it only becomes an issue when you do it wrong.


As for TS's question, yes, I agree. I like Kyokushinkai but it has serious flaws in it and YOU NEED TO CROSS TRAIN! It's an absolute must if you want to consider yourself a fighter.

ALL the Kyokushin fighters I've sparred with kickboxing/MMA rules have been caught clean by simple punches as they come forward and try to kick. And they all have the same look of confusion on their face, and none of them can adapt. The style is literally about coming forward and kicking. They can't body punch against someone who's hitting them in the face, so they're the easiest opponents ever.

A good example is this:



Shokei Matsui, someone with absolutely masterful technique and timing, perhaps the best Kyokushin practitioner of all time, looks like a clumsy beginner when punches to the head are allowed. Someone with two weeks of boxing under their belt would've beat him. He's lucky he was against a limp-wristed Kung Fu guy that had even less experience than him.

 

[Jimmy Jazz]

No.

Just like "too much blocking punches and kicks" can't be an issue -- it only becomes an issue when you do it wrong.


As for TS's question, yes, I agree. I like Kyokushinkai but it has serious flaws in it and YOU NEED TO CROSS TRAIN! It's an absolute must if you want to consider yourself a fighter.

ALL the Kyokushin fighters I've sparred with kickboxing/MMA rules have been caught clean by simple punches as they come forward and try to kick. And they all have the same look of confusion on their face, and none of them can adapt. The style is literally about coming forward and kicking. They can't body punch against someone who's hitting them in the face, so they're the easiest opponents ever.

A good example is this:



Shokei Matsui, someone with absolutely masterful technique and timing, perhaps the best Kyokushin practitioner of all time, looks like a clumsy beginner when punches to the head are allowed. Someone with two weeks of boxing under their belt would've beat him. He's lucky he was against a limp-wristed Kung Fu guy that had even less experience than him.

that guy was a taikiken practioner I believe. lots of kk guys cross trained in it according to @Azam and who also said some of the kk guys who went to k1 had minimal cross training. Francisco Filho is a good example of that. Went from being a kk champ in 99 to a k1 grand prix champ in 2000 and in his career beat some of the best in kb. I don't know where you are from but the us isnt known for having a great kk scene. I've done muay thai after doing karate for a number of years and the defense to punches isnt particularly difficult. Boxing rules on the other hand to me is alot harder to adapt to as a kickfighter.

 

[n.diazismylife1999]

that guy was a taikiken practioner I believe. lots of kk guys cross trained in it according to @Azam and who also said some of the kk guys who went to k1 had minimal cross training. Francisco Filho is a good example of that. Went from being a kk champ in 99 to a k1 grand prix champ in 2000 and in his career beat some of the best in kb. I don't know where you are from but the us isnt known for having a great kk scene. I've done muay thai after doing karate for a number of years and the defense to punches isnt particularly difficult. Boxing rules on the other hand to me is alot harder to adapt to as a kickfighter.

Does Japan have a good KK scene? Is Shokei Matsui a good Kyokushinkai karateka? I think you'd be forced to answer in the affirmative to both of those. And yet in the video he looks completely lost because punches to the head are introduced.