Kyokushin Karate MMA Fighters | Page 5

Discussion in 'Standup Technique' started by loui_ludwig, Jan 10, 2008.

  1. Azam Purple Belt

    Azam
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    If you think Francisco Filho never had problems with boxing - you need to take time and re-watch his K1 fights.

    You just admitted that Andy Hug had to cross train in boxing? Why? Because he had issues with boxing like most pure knockdown fighters do.

    You just provided examples contrary to your statements.

    Most Kyokushin dojos do not fight ichigeki rules. I was with IKO1 - we never did ichigeki rules & it was never in the syllabus.

    Kyokushin, shin karate, seidokaikan, oyama, Ashihara are all different. Yes they share same mother style but each is different. Shin Karate spar kickboxing rules - Kyokushin spars knockdown karate, Seidokaikan does both, Oyama does both & Ashihara have sabaki rules. I'm sorry but that is a big difference.

    No you are claiming that most Kyokushin dojos train ichigeki rules - I've been to quite a few Kyokushin gyms in the London area (as w - none of them have ever done ichigeki rules. It was never part of kyokushin syllabus. Knockdown sparring is.

    No offence but you sound very opinionated. Nearly everything you've said is opinions and you seem confused between kyokushin & shin karate - they are different. Are you going to tell me next Kozo Takeda was kyokushin as well?

    Your claim is that Kyokushin has no issues with head punching - the only examples you've given to prove this is Noiri (who is shin karate), Filho (who had very bad boxing), Hug (had bad boxing so he got boxing coach) - Pettas is the only guy you've mentioned but you didn't mention his first fight he got knocked out by Leko - then spent the next 2 years cross training in kickboxing more before going back to fight again.

    So all the examples you've given don't proof any point you've made. Also your claiming now most kyokushin gyms train kickboxing ichigeki rules - which is false.

    I don't hate Kyokushin - I use to do it. I realise the pros & cons of the style. Try not to let your emotions cloud your view of it.
     
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  2. Kyokushinanalyst White Belt

    Kyokushinanalyst
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    more bullshit, dodging and terrible arguments. You need to watch those fights again. You never countered any of my points.

    Strange you call me opinionated when you are clearly the same and biased from juku.

    1. Ichegeki is very common and most people learn head punching in the dojo. you didn't counter any of my points. 60+ in Japan in 1 year. I am with IKO 1 now and i train at this gyms. So you are lying.

    There are hundreds of events yearly and again head punching is taught how to defend even in schools who don't. sorry you never learned it you are a minority.

    Filho went 4-1 in his first fights against the best in the world. He did fine and had some punch ko's himself. Again if what you said was true and it was a huge adjustment He would have lost his first fights by KO by punch. Statistically Kyokushin fighters lose by Punch KO LESS than boxers in K-1. You use ancedote and not stats. You can simply state these fighters had bad boxing but they did great and thats a fact by the record. Noticed you skipped over how you lied about Kin too.

    2. You are selectively reading and being dishonest its super annoying. Muay Thai fighters ALSO TRAIN BOXING FOR K-1. Everyone does. Again His boxing coach said he was competent and a natural from the beginning, aka not a fish out of water. Exactly my point. Every single Muay Thai fighter has a boxing coach for k-1. You saying that proves nothing. Really disappointed how you are arguing in such bad faith Ignoring all those sutlties to my argument. You are deliberately strawmaning. I even said these things you ignored in my first post. Name one Muay Thai fighter who didn't have a boxing coach for K-1? Your point is just stupid.

    If you ask semmy shiltz, masaaki noiri or any of the people from other styles they even say its the same. Kyokushin Is Kyokushin. Only slight differences. But its the same stuff. Same tactics. You are being willfully dishonest. Ill take Noiri's word over yours. As we went pretty tit for tat in sparring.

    I've never met anyone who argued otherwise, other than you who has a vested interest in it to win an argument. Its a fact and you can read it in Kiyama and Midoris books about the politics of kyokushin and how all these styles are essentially the same. again. They know more than you.

    Again shin karate founders and pioneers all came from IKO 1. Its a small difference. Nobody who does the style (many of them train at ichegeki) think that. Only you. Some guy whose never trained it.

    again i deeply hope you will come to Japan and train here, see it and ask them yourself.


    Again all the things you say are statistically false. Kyokushin fighters have double Positive numbers when taking win loss from kickboxing. You can't bullshit me. And I will sit here arguing with you for the rest of time. I research this. I have spread sheet after spread sheet of What they lose by, percentage hit, And win loss. As well as detailed interviews all coming out to be published within the year.

    Ichegeki kick has long been in the curriculum again In Japan russia and Lituania. How are their hundreds of tournaments if that's not the case? You are simply lying. You have been to a school that hasn't. Some schools who focus on going to the world tournaments don't. but those fighters, Often are successful when transitioning to kickboxing anyway. The stats don't lie. Please argue with facts.

    I never said they had "zero problem" I said its blown out of proportion. They say its like fish out of water. Thats clearly not the case. And even if I granted your ridiculous argument how did they catch up SO fast And do so well In k-1? 1. Its not true. 2. Its not hard to adjust. Anything you say about pettas is mostly bullshit as I know the guy personally. Again his big problem was huge lasting injuries. And he trained with Filho to get ready for fights. He didn't stop to train only kickboxing for 2 years. Thats just a lie outright. He was always training with Ichegeki on many things at the time.

    Again. Everyone from every style cross trains for K-1. Its a moot point. Wish you would argue in good faith. Very dishonest person. The facts are the facts. They do well in kickboxing. They transition well. They statistically get Ko'd Less than boxers. You cannot dispute the data
     
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  3. Jimmy H Brown Belt

    Jimmy H
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    but did you watch that fight i showed you bro?
     
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  4. Hotora86 火虎 空手道

    Hotora86
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    Wow man, every one of your posts is like a book, I feel like I need cliff notes or something! :p

    j/k nice to have a well-spoken Karate stylist who likes long discussions around here. ;) Check out my Karate thread too. (below in sig)
     
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  5. Kyokushinanalyst White Belt

    Kyokushinanalyst
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    Thanks man. And I did. I will be incorporating it into my next research paper and I will gladly site you if I publish it on Karate and MMA. You are very kind thank you.

    Sorry I seem so annoyed. but I hear this stuff often, and I devote Lots of my time to researching this. So I hate when someone tells me things about people I know personally and figures i know aren't true.

    I apologize for the long rants. Its a passion subject to me and one i have spent half a decade studying and writing papers about
     
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  6. Kyokushinanalyst White Belt

    Kyokushinanalyst
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    yes. It was very interesting. I wasn't aware of that fight.
     
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  7. Jimmy H Brown Belt

    Jimmy H
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    yeah I'm glad you found it interesting bro. There were actually quite a few punchers and boxers in muay thai in the 60s 70s and 80s who could use their hands. You might want to look into them if you can. I'd be happy to show you more fights if you are interested. Dont get me wrong, i like dutch style. I use punches to set up my kicks thanks to them.
     
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  8. Hotora86 火虎 空手道

    Hotora86
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    Thanks, please feel free to cite my thread if you would like to.

    I think I know what you mean since I'm very passionate about the topic as well and I understand your annoyance but then again most of the guys discussing these things here also have extensive Karate backgrounds and their own rich experience, so while their opinions might sometimes be a bit off for specific cases I think their input is always valuable and can be applicable to other fighters / styles / cases etc. Either way, as long as we keep it civil and respectful it's always great to be involved in these discussions or even just read through them. :)
     
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  9. Azam Purple Belt

    Azam
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    1. Ichigeki is not very common. Maybe in Lithuania & Japan but not rest of the world.

    2. I told you I use to do Kyokushin before switching to Daido Juku Kudo - so no bias.

    3. Your Filho argument is very easy to disprove. Watch Filho fight - the reason he has very few losses is because he avoided boxing exchanges because he's smart. The times he got dragged into exchanges he got knocked out or lost decisively. Stats does not provide real answers in this case.

    4. Muay Thai fighters train some boxing when going into K1 because scoring is different from MT. But do not pretend as though that is the same for Kyokushin fighters - MT fighters already know how to use their hands they spar MT rules. Kyokushin fighters spar knockdown karate mainly which does not involve using your hands to hit someone's face.

    5. If you think shin karate which spars kickboxing is the same as Kyokushin where sparring is mainly knockdown karate. I can't help you.

    6. You haven't given me one single fact which proves "most kyokushin schools do ichigeki rules" - you mentioned 3 countries that do it (many in those countries don't do it) - what about the rest of the world?

    7. You are way too emotional about Kyokushin. Kyokushin has its advantages & disadvantages. I don't need to be dishonest.

    8. Yes Kyokushin fighters do well when they cross train - I didn't argue that. That is what your evidence/facts are saying. All the people you are mentioning all cross trained & sparred kickboxing at ichigeki (most did so because they wanted to compete professionally in kickboxing at some point) - even then they still had some issues.


    Very easy for me to show you - watch Lechi Kurbanov kickboxing fight against MT guy Lopes at Ichigeki 2012. Kurbanov has decades more martial arts experience but he struggled with head punching because of distance like I said. Anyone who spars knockdown karate for most of their life & does not cross train runs into the same problems. He is not the only one either - many have issue unless they cross train a lot.


    Please refrain from hurling insults and calling me dishonest.

    First you said there is no problem with head punches in your first post. Now you are conceding you never said they had zero problem (which means now you admit there is some problem) and it's blown out of proportion.
     
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  10. Kyokushinanalyst White Belt

    Kyokushinanalyst
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    Muay thai fighters train in boxing even for muay thai. Buakaw and yodensenklai have boxing coaches generally. You asserting K-1 scores different and thats why isn't reality. its because they were going up against better boxing than they were used too and had to prepare. they also brought in karate trainers to learn what to avoid. I literally have k-1 max 2010 playing on my tv from dvd right now and buakaw is talking about just that. and he got caught and dropped by andre dida who was not a great striker. Which is why he needed a boxing coach. So don't lie.

    Ok so lets use your logic. Lebanner lost his second fight via punch kos. Does that mean boxing and muay thai are weak and cant adjust to head punches? cause he lost by KO faster than Most of the kyokushinkai did? Buakaw got dropped by an mma fighter twice in k-1 by punches. Guess that means muay thai can't adjust to head punches. This is the flawed logic you are using. We ar talking about the highest level of striking. EVERYONE has lost to punches or been outpunched. Even the best boxers in K-1 like botha or sefo Have been out punched. That doesn't prove anything. And again all k-1 fighters cross train. So thats not a good argument. Lets talk statistics. Karate fighters from knockdown rules in kickboxing from my research so far (incomplete many fighters left to tally ) are 683 wins 198 losses. Twice as high as Boxers who transition. So again statistically what you are saying isn't true. And if like you said they can't be as good as people who train it all the time. why do they do statistically better? Why do they get punch ko'd less?


    AGAIN please read the nuiances in my argument. I am not saying kyokushin head punching skills are the best or as good as a boxer. But they are clearly competent and not out of their element. If they were, how are they able to do so well and catch up to muay thai fighters who did it their whole lives? obviously the foundation must be solid. If a muay thai fighter trains his whole life with head punches in these rules. And like you claim Knockdown karateka are almost never trained in it. and They won't be as good because they started later. Why do they do so well? Why have they such a hugely positive record? why do they statistically not get ko'd by head punches more? None of your arguments translate to reality. It sounds good. But in practice it doesn't work out that way. Because muay thai also has problems with boxing. And boxers have problems with kicks. And all must cross train in K-1 to survive.


    Let me show you just a taste of the hundreds of fighters i have researched. Filho who you claim is terrible somehow had a positive record. he went 4-1-1 in his first 6 against the best in the world. If it was so terrible why couldn't these world class fighters take advantage of it? He has less Ko losses than most k-1 legends from muay thai and boxing. These legendary kickboxers are used to kicks and body shots. and according to you filho had terrible hand skills. So how did they lose to him? Why Didn't they beat him? If its that simple they all should have KO'D him. They all knew how to kick. They all knew how to knee. Elbows weren't allowed in k-1. So with Filho "having terrible hand skills and would be so far behind" How did he do so well right off the bat and continued too? Doesn't pass the smell test. You say oh he just avoided the punches......ok....so that shows proficiency. Now you are moving the goalpost. I never said they were good boxers (of course not they didn't train that style) I said they could deal with head punches and did well in k-1 and transitioned well. Which he did. going 4-1 against the best early on before really finding his grove. which you just admitted he was solid enough and knew enough to avoid it entirely? strange argument (even tho its not true filho often got into exchanges and Ko'd many people with punches)

    Why did ewerton teixiera never get ko'd with punches? All his losses were close decisions and he actually had some good punch ko's against lifetime kickboxers. His only KO loss was to Overeem who is a known cheater and roid user. And it was by A knee not a punch. (statistically the thai clinch is the biggest weakness to overcome for knockdown fighters, more fights are lost due to that than punches). He never trained ichegeki. hes one of the few who didn't. Why did he do so well? Why couldn't lebanner a world class kickboxer and boxer take advantage? Its just not like you say. If all you can say is they avoided the punching range (not true but even if i grant you that means they knew how to avoid it and were competent and solid) That just proves my point.

    When the fighter you are using as an example doesn't agree with you i can't help you. Again you keep asserting things that aren't true. I have never seen a kyokushin school who never taught students how to block a face punch. and there are hundreds of tournaments a year for ichegeki kick. But I guess hundreds of tournaments with dozens of participants is a small bit for you.

    Lechi is a weird case as he was known as somewhat of a cheat even in kyokushin always using falling spinning kicks and used it as a crutch. he was heavily criticized. Stop using one off fighters. refute the fact that kyokushin fighters have an immensely positive win loss in kickboxing and have less ko losses than other styles.

    I mentioned the hot beds i am firmilar with. Which make up a majority of IKO 1 members. I can also say as i originally came from Canada we also trained head punched. literally hundreds of tournaments a year and you say most don't...ok. i can't help you then.

    I said some of the fighters mentioned had no problems adjusting. and that the main problem was gloves in general. You claimed it was a devastating crippling weakness. but yet they did well. So your claim is wrong

    You are constantly moving the goal post and not arguing figures just one off fights, asserting people sucked even tho they did well and didn't lose. you call me emotional, i would say you are desperately grasping at straws as you don't wanna lose the argument.

    I will debate you on this for the rest of time. if you wanna go in circles and strawman ill correct you forever. What you are saying is statistically untrue and im tired of people like you spreading false information. I will gladly do this forever.
     
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  11. Kyokushinanalyst White Belt

    Kyokushinanalyst
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    Also you keep coming back to cross training. Ill say again for the 1000th time. Everyone cross trains for pro fights. No muay thai fighter doesnt train boxing. and no muay thai fighter doesnt bring in Karate fighters to train when preparing to face that style. I can give you hundreds of examples.

    You keep harping on that fact when its a moot point as everyone does it.

    my point was always kyokushinkai can learn to fight under kickboxing rules and train up for it fairly well and quickly. Because the base is solid. and they aren't ducks in a pond when head punches are introduced.

    And some as i said in my first post with examples did better in ichegeki kick and k-1 or MMA versus knockdown which they did their whole life.

    Exactly what i said was, once they start training for kickboxing rules, it isnt hard for them to transition as they do well. everyone cross trains. moot point.

    But most statistically do a great job of transitioning their skill to gloves and head punches. 90 percent of them wouldn't have a positive record if that wasn't true.

    They can switch to practicing blocking punches to the head (as most learn the basics in the dojo at least or do ichegeki kick) start training under those conditions and do well very quickly if not immediately in their first fight.
     
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  12. Azam Purple Belt

    Azam
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    Ok Kyokushinanalyst you win argument. I don't really care about winning this or that argument.

    You want to think the way you want to think - whether I am wrong or right - you will still think what you want to think.

    Whether it is based on facts or not doesn't matter.

    First you said majority does ichigeki rules in Kyokushin - now you are admitting you think only "IKO1 members" - what about rest of kyokushin? You can't speak for things not in your "hot bed" but you just said everyone in kyokushin does ichigeki rules. But you can only speak on IKO1 - you do know most Kyokushin members outside of IKO1 right? Most DO NOT DO ICHIGEKI RULES. So now you are saying only IKO1 members (even though I was an IKO1 member any there were never any ichigeki kickboxing tournaments when I was around).

    I've said my points - you've ignored them all.

    There is no point in replying further when you just ignore or say bullshit to everything. You went from saying no issues - to admitting there are some issues with head punching. That should tell you that you need to do more research if your view changes that quickly.
     
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  13. Kyokushinanalyst White Belt

    Kyokushinanalyst
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    wow didn't address half of my points cool. more dishonesty

    I said some fighters mentioned had no problems and were natural. i pointed out muay thai fighters have to bring in boxing coaches and tighten up to their weaknesses too, you totally ignored it.

    Like i said most Kyokushinkai just put on gloves and start training head punches which they already know the basics. A literal quote from kin.

    "One day my sensei walked in and said we are going to practice for pro fights. We put on gloves and started punching to the head. It was interesting. It was as simple as that"

    You can see that on the 1993 DVD for K-1 if you can speak Japanese.

    You are a legend at strawmans and ignoring points and missing nuances on purpose.

    wait, first you said Kyokushinkaikan iko 1 doesn't train it. Now you admit it does but say IKO 2 AND 3 don't. First point. Actually their are extremely few IKO 2 who have gone to K-1 or kickboxing. so their is no data. almost none. Very few did (few) another point. you literally said those other styles train face punching and were good at it already....so thats not an issue either. (just arguing with your garbage logic back at you)

    Regardless, if IKO1 fighters Didn't train ichegeki rules ever like you claim, they sure did an amazing job in the ring without it and going into kickboxing months after winning world tournaments in some cases and winning. thanks for proving my point for me. Again you claimed IKO 1 is a TOTALLY DIFFERENT STYLE THAN ALL OTHER KARATES LOL (you can't even keep your own stuff straight) so I just tried to argue within your logic to show you the flaws. seems you can't pick up on that tho. If you want to discuss those other styles and their percentages and how they adapt. I have that data too. we can talk about it all day. Just stop moving the goalpost.

    you said Ichegeki did not exist when you were around. Ok. lets test that. cause Pettas was a shin karate champ and ichegeki champ in 2000. kin in 1998. Alahos. in 2001. Hirota in 2002. Abe in 1997. Its been around a long time. Again hundreds of events yearly and you can watch them along side krush monthly in Japan. There are more ichegeki tournaments than traditional at this point.

    I said Adapting to head punches isn't the issue. i stand by that. you even said these fighters were experts and able to avoid punching combos from the best strikers in the world. That's impressive! If they didn't know anything! If you look at say TKD fighters who went to K-1. They legitimately did have trouble with head punches despite ALSO CROSS TRAINING.

    They went 45-120. OUCH! But wait....they also train no head punches...and then went to K-1. But got Punch KO'D way more often, and didn't catch up by cross training......huh ;). Exactly my point. the base of kyokushin is solid and most knew what to do already. just needed to practice kyokushin under those rules more. where as the TKD people were completely lost and had to start from scratch (park and yilmaz) which actually shows in their records and way of losing.

    Kyokushinkai records would be exactly the same if what you said was true. but their results were completely different, and can't be attributed to simple leg kicks


    What i say is based on research and fact. what you say is totally emotional and based on ancedote and speculation. You don't even have the data but assert you are correct. You claim i am just "emotionally attached" Clearly you are.

    I already said THE REAL. Big weakness is the clinch. Statistically head punches don't cause much of a thread by percentage loss and hits in general. Most kyokushinkai get fucked up in the clinch when knees are allowed and back before k-1 had the 1 knee only rule. Also gloves have been a big problem as in bare hand or mma blocks are completely different (which kyokushin is good with and do well in mma) learning to block using gloves is different and that takes some time. but again Most transition fine and learn it very quick unlike TKD and other stylists.

    So If I am just biased and can't accept weaknesses of kyokushin why do I say that? Because the data shows it. So your argument falls apart again.

    And please I encourage you not to reply as you said you don't wish too. I would rather not keep having to repeat myself and deal with you misrepresenting what i say and ignoring hard data. Its a most unpleasant conversation and id rather leave it here.
     
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  14. Azam Purple Belt

    Azam
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    Jesus Christ...

    Simple question:

    1. Is Ichigeki kickboxing a part of the Kyokushinkaikan IKO1 syllabus? No.
    2. Does Ichigeki kickboxing exist? Yes.
    3. Is it widespread in Kyokushin? No.
    4. Is Ichigeki kickboxing for professional kyokushin fighters wanting to compete in kickboxing? Yes.

    THIS WAS YOUR EXACT QUOTE:


    When I said to you about kyokushin not training head punches & it being an issue - you said most of kyokushin train ichigeki rules ^^^.

    Now you are saying only IKO1 members.

    So now you're agreeing with me - most kyokushin members do not train head punches or spar ichigeki rules.

    So if they aren't training ichigeki rules - they are training knockdown karate rules?

    So if they are sparring without head contact - you think they will be as good as someone who spars egularly with head contact (kickboxers, MT, Sanda etc).

    You even admitted all professional kyokushin fighters had to cross train to transition to kickboxing? WHY?

    Muay Thai fighters already know how to box - they train more boxing for K1 because they can't clinch/elbow so have to rely more on hands. Include clinching/elbows and it's MT. There are plenty of good boxers in MT - what are you on about.


    [​IMG]




    You can't accept weaknesses of Kyokushin. You've just spent many long ass posts defending the no head punch weakness until you admitted ichigeki rules are only within IKO1 and even in IKO1 there are a lot of dojos that don't train ichigeki rules. Then you said that professional kyokushin fighters who compete in kickboxing cross-train in kickboxing or boxing - which further proves the point I was making.

    I was an IKO1 member in the UK - and never came across Ichigeki rules in the UK or in Europe (nor were there hundreds or even dozens of ichigeki tournaments here). In fact I've never even see any ichigeki tournament while in the IKO1.


    I can't believe I've wasted my time with this. Good luck with your research. Don't want to waste anymore time on this.
     
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  15. Kyokushinanalyst White Belt

    Kyokushinanalyst
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    wow. I can't believe what a dishonest person you are. twisting my words again.

    Again all these fighters you site literally disagree with you.

    First. you lied about Kin. You ignored hundreds of points about fighters and fights and just didn't respond. You made assertions about Kin and pettas I told u straight up weren't true, meaning you made it up. Which is deeply disturbing you would out right lie and say Kin had trouble with head punches early (never lost by punch ko, had a great career out of the gate) Which you made up just to try and score points.

    1. Ichegeki kick and shin karate have more tournaments than traditional world wide at this point in time. Everyone learns how to block face punches. And more do gloves now than traditional tournaments in japan, russia and lithuania (also canada id say is 50/50) and many cross and do both styles of tournaments (like me). Those countries make up more than 60 percent of IKO 1 students. and im sure with a tiny bit of research id find Ichegeki did exist in europe and you are lying about that too. I literally gave you european champions and the years they were when you claimed it didn't happen.

    2. Learning how to block head punches is totally in the syllabus and you are lying to say otherwise for iko 1 We teach our white belts that.

    3. I literally said I was only talking about IKO 1 in that instance because you kept moving the goal post and claimed they were completely different styles so i focused on just that one. But IKO 2 also learns how to defend head punching. and they almost never go to kickboxing so their is just no data to comment on. Most go to shin karate tournaments not Ichegeki kick rules (very small difference) again we can comment and talk about that if you weren't such a liar and dishonest person moving goal posts and switching what you say.I think this is the most disturbingly dishonest you have been this entire time. I even said that in my post I was arguing within your logic to show flaws that IKO1 is its own martial art (which now you are back peddling on? You are an truly annoying person)

    Sometimes I have granted you just for the sake of argument, Ok lets say you are correct and they didnt train it. they still did amazingly well. Now ill re paste as you ignored this and tried to twist it as me agreeing nobody trained ichegeki (horribly dishonest of you)

    . you even said these fighters were experts and able to avoid punching combos from the best strikers in the world. That's impressive! If they didn't know anything! If you look at say TKD fighters who went to K-1. They legitimately did have trouble with head punches despite ALSO CROSS TRAINING.

    They went 45-120. OUCH! But wait....they also train no head punches...and then went to K-1. But got Punch KO'D way more often, and didn't catch up by cross training......huh ;). Exactly my point. the base of kyokushin is solid and most knew what to do already. just needed to practice kyokushin under those rules more. where as the TKD people were completely lost and had to start from scratch (park and yilmaz) which actually shows in their records and way of losing.


    You are totally wrong about Ichigeki BUT IF YOU WERE RIGHT (you aren't) why did these people do so well Compared to TKD which also has no head punching in traditional rules. why couldn't their muay thai opponents capitalize and knock them out with punches at high volume? Saying they avoided it is the same as saying they were proficient. you lose either way. Like saying mayweather sucks at punching to the head because he avoids scraps and Punches the outside and rolls (he is good! thats the point!)

    Again you are lying. Muay Thai has to train Karate as well for K-1. Name a single muay thai fighter who doesn't have a boxing coach. Every Thai gym has one on staff. For a reason. Any thai fighter who fights a karateka brings in training partners from that style. ITS A MOOT POINT. They all have to train all the styles to do well at K-1. Sefo brought in feitos to train. Aerts trained with Hug. Buakaw brought in a boxing coach for muay thai and K-1. They all cross train. jesus christ dude you are really stubborn. How many times do I have to say they all cross train? kyokushin has defenses to head punches. They just train that more to get used to the rule set. Their are tons of krush fighters too like hirota and saiga who literally don't train boxing at all (they go to guts and ichegeki) and they just train with kyokushin guys with gloves on and they destroy! How do you explain that?


    I literally said Kyokushin has a weakness to clinch. Then you say I can't admit any weaknesses. You can't stop lying can you? You are clearly deeply emotional and can't admit you are wrong. The facts don't support you. Why are kyokushinkai So much more positive in wins compared to TKD if none of them train head punches and they all cross trained? You can't explain that away. I could go on and on destroying your weak arguments but whats the point? You will strawman me, miss the point, ignore the nuances i put in and just scream na na na.

    "So if they are sparring without head contact - you think they will be as good as someone who spars with regularly with head contact (kickboxers, MT, Sanda etc)."

    You are so blind you don't see how this works against you. so you say ichegeki kick isn't a real thing. but kyokushinkai have an amazingly positive record in kickboxing and k-1. So by YOUR OWN LOGIC they do great in k-1 and beat muay thai even without head contact sparring. LOL. Your own arguments aren't even logically consistent! (none of this is true. i am just proving a point nothing you say is coherent and you are just trying to win the argument now)


    The facts and stats don't support you. if what you said was true TKD and Karate fighters would have the same results. Or why More seasoned muay thai fighters who have done it for longer cant capitalize on it. your argument is kyokushin guys cross train in boxing and in like 5 weeks are as proficient and can fend off the very best muay thai heavy weights in the world?? They can catch up that quickly???? Makes zero sense. The only explanation is they already knew how to defend head punches. And built off that solid background. Unlike TKD which started from scratch and never caught up.
     
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    Last edited: Feb 17, 2017
  16. Tayski Purple Belt

    Tayski
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    @Kyokushinanalyst You might have experienced something different in Japan, and you're very lucky if ichigeki / Kickboxing is part of your training. However I have to agree with @Azam that a lot of Kyokushin dojos don't sparr with head punches. I've trained in Kyokushin for a few years within the IFK organisation of Hanshi Arneil and also trained at some IKO1 dojos from time to time here in the UK and also a couple of dojos in Sweden, and the closest I've come to head punching was what is called clicker and is essentially continuous point scoring without contact.

    Even Francisco Filho himself has said a few times that for him it was something new to punch to the head in K-1, I mean you can hear it from the man himself here at 6.37:


    You have some good points about fighters from other martial arts such as Muay Thai putting more emphasis on western boxing in order to be successful in K-1, however they already tend to be more used to head punches with gloves than the typical Kyokushin stylist.

    There are of course exceptions and as I said it's a great thing if a Kyokushin dojo trains and sparrs with gloves and head punches, but it doesn't seem to be the majority of dojos unfortunately.

    I'm only sharing with you my own experience which resonates with Azam's.
     
    #96
  17. Kyokushinanalyst White Belt

    Kyokushinanalyst
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    Thanks for arguing in good faith and acknowledging my arguments.

    one note. when i said "most train ichegeki kick and train it in the dojo" That was apart of a very long essay i wrote quickly. I meant to say OR not and. I have many spelling errors in these posts as i am busy and trying to do it fast.

    What i meant. Most Either fight in ichegeki kick, or at least learn how to defend head punches in the dojo.

    - What I meant.


    You are correct about Muay Thai

    You have some good points about fighters from other martial arts such as Muay Thai putting more emphasis on western boxing in order to be successful in K-1, however they already tend to be more used to head punches with gloves than the typical Kyokushin stylist.

    I would never argue against that. My point is that kyokushin stylists have answers to head punches and are not clueless like people early in the thread were saying, and that when they do put on gloves and start doing kyokushin that way, they pick it up pretty quick.as the foundation is their. if they don't already do that in the gym. and they have tremendous success in those rules sets.

    I was at the gym when jan soukup was coming over. he was a beast off the bat at head punches with no gloves. even knocked sefo on his ass. It was when he put on gloves he really struggled. I think Kyokushin transition to head punches in MMA is much much easier. that was my point.



    Learning to change to gloves of course is a difference. but Filho is the teacher at Ichegeki and he said it wasn't hard to adapt. Just needed to train with Gloves and head punches in kyokushin style. As he never did it before. But he adjusted well and fast. He teaches here at Ichegeki.

    Again quote from kin


    "One day my sensei walked in and said we are going to practice for pro fights. We put on gloves and started punching to the head. It was interesting. It was as simple as that"

    You can see that on the 1993 DVD for K-1 if you can speak Japanese.


    I have never seen a dojo that didn't teach defense of head punches. Not all of them spar with it but most do. Again Japan Russia and lithuania make up the majority of IKO 1 members. Not to mention 60+ Ichegeki tournaments a year which outnumbers traditional within IKO 1. You guys keep saying when you were in it in england you didn't see it so it must be the majority. At ichegeki not only does EVERYONE come here to train, I meet often shokei matsui and the organization heads WHO TOLD US. how many events of what are held. Its not worth arguing. Ill grant it was different when you guys did it (I don't believe that) but that is certainly not the case now and you are welcome to come to ichegeki and ask them yourself. Or if you are in Japan I will happily take you to one as at this rate their is like 1 a week.

    Shin karate, iko 2 etc are different and have their own rule sets that are not the same as ichegeki. We could talk about that too if the goalpost isn't moved. As Apparently all organizations are completely different styles.

    My point is that a lot (id argue a majority) Of schools learn how to defend head punching at the least, and at best train it in the gym or for ichegeki or shin tournaments. People always say Kyokushinkai have ZERO idea what to do with head punches and would get rekt.

    As I pointed out that theory doesn't hold up to stats. Kyokushinkai do very well and win more than lose by a huge margin when switching over. They also very rarely lose to KO head punch compared to other styles. I am sorry. I don't know what else to say. the stats don't lie. and you can't just shake it off by saying, oh well they train boxing for that. They all do! So why do they do so much better? That makes no sense.

    My main point is kyokushin does teach you what to do with head punches. I am not arguing if you never trained it, or go to a dojo thats focused only on the world tournament you will do well. My point is, as kin sensei said, if you just train for it within kyokushin, you can do well. as hirota, saiga, Fuck i could go on for days about the krush fighters who don't train boxing, just add gloves to kyokushin training and do great in kickboxing. That is my point. They are not fish out of water. Kyokushin is more than competent in head punches if you train for it. Not only that, But many Fighters who were knock down only, Can switch and do well very quickly. The transition Kin did from knockdown to full head contact rules was literally 5 weeks. and he destroyed out of the gate.

    The transition rate is just too successful. And you can't attribute it to cross training other styles. TKD would have the same results. It doesn't past smell test. and again Every muay thai fighter brought in boxers and karateka to train for K-1.

    Summary.

    1. Kyokushin as a style has answers to head punches.
    2. Kyokushin tournaments with head punches are not obscure and are at this point a majority.
    3. Fighters can transition from knockdown rules to head punches fairly quickly.
    4. They have an exceptional success rate.
    5. These facts cannot be explained away with anecdote as the same would happen to other styles.
    6. The biggest problem is actually learning to fight with gloves As I train at the gym that trains these guys over for kickboxing and i see them daily.
    7. When they start training head punches they are competent and need to just get used to doing that all the time from that point on. The boxing coachs confirmed this too me in interviews.
    8. This theory can be shown in other martial arts that go to MMA and transition well to new rules.
    9. Providing personal expirence or single fighters saying otherwise is well within the margin of error of individuals and does not disprove any of these stats based on hundreds of fighters.


    again I am not just saying this stuff. its the result of hundreds of interviews, stats, fights and its all going into a 300 page study i will be publishing next year. Its not conjecture. I went into this assuming the result would be different. My findings is that the clinch was the biggest problem and when k-1 took that away visibly the success rate went up. Which was a total shock to me as I thought the judo influence in kyokushin would over come it. and that was a tough pill to swallow. My pride is not in this. Just facts.

    I could go on for days and i will if i have too.

    Also I just wanna add, that clip of filho is an odd one you chose. He literally said He didn't know how good he was at it because he was not allowed to punch in world tournaments. And he knocked andy out in his first fight. andy had trained in boxing at that point for years. So that in no way plays into your favor. it in fact proves What i say is true. He said he was worried about it....but the results were good. Exactly my point. just because in theory that sounds right, doesn't mean in practice it is. I was surprised by the results of my studies too. But again, I hate using anecdote. only stats.
     
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    Last edited: Feb 18, 2017
  18. Karatelurker White Belt

    Karatelurker
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    I have been watching this thread and just wanted to add in I live in The UK and am a member of IKO 1 currently. What KyokushinAnalyst has said is true. Ichegeki is also very popular here.

    sensei williams and sensei laurier organize and host them. They happen often

    I also want to say anyone who claims kyokushinkaikan doesn't teach how to defend the face never trained it.

    I have studied at Ishi and kokoro dojo and both taught it. I have been in street fights, I know how to defend my face from punches.


    That is all i have to say really osuuuu!
     
    #98
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2017
  19. Tayski Purple Belt

    Tayski
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    My point isn't that Kyokushin fighters are completely lost with head punches, but that it is a gap that they usually have to fill before a good transition to fight sports like Kickboxing or MMA.

    You might not believe me or Azam when we say that here a lot of the Kyokushin dojos don't focus on head punches sparring / fighting / competing.

    What I tried to show with what Filho is saying in that video clip, is that he didn't know how powerful his punches to the head could be as he trained in Karate and they don't punches to the face. He had trained Kyokushin for many many years and basically said that was not part of his training.

    If you know of Kyokushin dojos in the UK who do focus on Kickboxing and sparr with head punches regularly please feel free to list them, because I've trained mainly at 2-3 dojos but have tried out a lot of other dojos out of curiosity in the London area and none of them focused on sparring with head punches apart from the occasional clicker which is non contact. I haven't come across Ichegeki tournaments here in the UK or Western Europe. Doesn't mean they don't exist, but honestly here the majority of dojos focus on Knockdown tournaments. When I talked specifically about this with fighters from France and Sweden they told me the same thing.

    And to be honest with you, one of the reasons I stopped training Kyokushin and now train in Muay Thai / Kickboxing is mostly because the Knockdown rules aren't really for me and I like to use head punches and clinch as part of the training, sparring and fighting. What I'm saying is that if Ichebeki training was part of the Kyokushin training here and there were those kind of tournaments here, I probably wouldn't have stopped Kyokushin to train in Muay Thai.

    I find insulting that you simply don't believe 2 different people telling you the same thing, here Kyokushin dojos focus on Knockdown and not on Kickboxing.

    Stats are good, but when you consider that the Kyokushin fighters who transitioned to K-1 and did well were actually some of the best fighters Kyokushin had to offer, you have to take those stats with a pinch of salt. I mean if you look at Ewerton Teixeira who's one of the most recent winners of a Knockdown world tournament who made the transition, his biggest win in Kickboxing was against a 38 years old Le Banner by decision after 2 extension rounds. All his other big fights such as against a 40 years old Peter Aerts, or Alistair Overeem or Hesdy Gerges are all losses.

    "But many Fighters who were knock down only, Can switch and do well very quickly."
    Apart from a very few top level Kyokushin fighters like Andy Hug, Francisco Filho and Glaube Feitosa, a lot of the others didn't do that well.

    I mean who do you have in Glory which is arguably the leading Kickboxing organisation nowadays who's at the top and from a Kyokushin background? Only a couple of fighters like Davit Kiria and Giga Chikadze who are not even in the top5 and they both trained heavily in Dutch style Kickboxing in the Netherlands for a long time before being where they are now.

    Mentioning that some Muay Thai fighters bring Karateka during their camps to get used to the style and movement is quite irrelevant to what we're discussing here. They're just getting used to fighting against unusual styles.

    You mention MMA, apart from GSP who have a style massively relying on boxing and wrestling which he learned after his Kyokushin days, who do we have at the very top of the MMA food chain with a Kyokushin style and background?

    Guys like Ewerton Teixeira and Lechi Kurvanov didn't do that great in MMA considering how much training and fighting background they have, and how they were at the very top of the Kyokushin food chain.

    I'm not arguing Kyokushin guys can do well in rulesets with head punches involved, but I'm arguing the fact that it's part of the training and that "many" are successful. They can be counted on one hand. As you mentioned Muay Thai, look at how many Muay Thai fighters are at the top of Kickboxing in comparison, and those fighters usually are not even fighters who were at the top of stadium Muay Thai.

    If according to you the majority of Kyokushin dojos train ichebeki nowadays, can you please provide some links to those dojos here in the UK or even in Western Europe? I bet you'd have a hard time finding more than a very few, it's clearly not the majority, to my biggest regret.
     
    #99
  20. Tayski Purple Belt

    Tayski
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    If Ichebeki is very popular here in the UK and those events happen often, can you provide some links to those events please?
    I'd like to visit them :)

    Regarding the training, studying some headpunch defence or doing some clicker type sparring from time to time isn't the same as actually training to fight under Kickboxing type of rules. I know for a fact that both Ishi and Kokoro dojos which are part of the IFK don't sparr with full contact head punches on a regular basis as part of their training.

    Also, let's not bring street fights in the conversation please...
     
    #100

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