Kyokushin Karate MMA Fighters

[Tayski]

@Kyokushinanalyst You might have experienced something different in Japan, and you're very lucky if ichigeki / Kickboxing is part of your training. However I have to agree with @Azam that a lot of Kyokushin dojos don't sparr with head punches. I've trained in Kyokushin for a few years within the IFK organisation of Hanshi Arneil and also trained at some IKO1 dojos from time to time here in the UK and also a couple of dojos in Sweden, and the closest I've come to head punching was what is called clicker and is essentially continuous point scoring without contact.

Even Francisco Filho himself has said a few times that for him it was something new to punch to the head in K-1, I mean you can hear it from the man himself here at 6.37:


You have some good points about fighters from other martial arts such as Muay Thai putting more emphasis on western boxing in order to be successful in K-1, however they already tend to be more used to head punches with gloves than the typical Kyokushin stylist.

There are of course exceptions and as I said it's a great thing if a Kyokushin dojo trains and sparrs with gloves and head punches, but it doesn't seem to be the majority of dojos unfortunately.

I'm only sharing with you my own experience which resonates with Azam's.

 

[Karatelurker]

I have been watching this thread and just wanted to add in I live in The UK and am a member of IKO 1 currently. What KyokushinAnalyst has said is true. Ichegeki is also very popular here.

sensei williams and sensei laurier organize and host them. They happen often

I also want to say anyone who claims kyokushinkaikan doesn't teach how to defend the face never trained it.

I have studied at Ishi and kokoro dojo and both taught it. I have been in street fights, I know how to defend my face from punches.


That is all i have to say really osuuuu!

 

[Tayski]

...

My point isn't that Kyokushin fighters are completely lost with head punches, but that it is a gap that they usually have to fill before a good transition to fight sports like Kickboxing or MMA.

You might not believe me or Azam when we say that here a lot of the Kyokushin dojos don't focus on head punches sparring / fighting / competing.

What I tried to show with what Filho is saying in that video clip, is that he didn't know how powerful his punches to the head could be as he trained in Karate and they don't punches to the face. He had trained Kyokushin for many many years and basically said that was not part of his training.

If you know of Kyokushin dojos in the UK who do focus on Kickboxing and sparr with head punches regularly please feel free to list them, because I've trained mainly at 2-3 dojos but have tried out a lot of other dojos out of curiosity in the London area and none of them focused on sparring with head punches apart from the occasional clicker which is non contact. I haven't come across Ichegeki tournaments here in the UK or Western Europe. Doesn't mean they don't exist, but honestly here the majority of dojos focus on Knockdown tournaments. When I talked specifically about this with fighters from France and Sweden they told me the same thing.

And to be honest with you, one of the reasons I stopped training Kyokushin and now train in Muay Thai / Kickboxing is mostly because the Knockdown rules aren't really for me and I like to use head punches and clinch as part of the training, sparring and fighting. What I'm saying is that if Ichebeki training was part of the Kyokushin training here and there were those kind of tournaments here, I probably wouldn't have stopped Kyokushin to train in Muay Thai.

I find insulting that you simply don't believe 2 different people telling you the same thing, here Kyokushin dojos focus on Knockdown and not on Kickboxing.

Stats are good, but when you consider that the Kyokushin fighters who transitioned to K-1 and did well were actually some of the best fighters Kyokushin had to offer, you have to take those stats with a pinch of salt. I mean if you look at Ewerton Teixeira who's one of the most recent winners of a Knockdown world tournament who made the transition, his biggest win in Kickboxing was against a 38 years old Le Banner by decision after 2 extension rounds. All his other big fights such as against a 40 years old Peter Aerts, or Alistair Overeem or Hesdy Gerges are all losses.

"But many Fighters who were knock down only, Can switch and do well very quickly."
Apart from a very few top level Kyokushin fighters like Andy Hug, Francisco Filho and Glaube Feitosa, a lot of the others didn't do that well.

I mean who do you have in Glory which is arguably the leading Kickboxing organisation nowadays who's at the top and from a Kyokushin background? Only a couple of fighters like Davit Kiria and Giga Chikadze who are not even in the top5 and they both trained heavily in Dutch style Kickboxing in the Netherlands for a long time before being where they are now.

Mentioning that some Muay Thai fighters bring Karateka during their camps to get used to the style and movement is quite irrelevant to what we're discussing here. They're just getting used to fighting against unusual styles.

You mention MMA, apart from GSP who have a style massively relying on boxing and wrestling which he learned after his Kyokushin days, who do we have at the very top of the MMA food chain with a Kyokushin style and background?

Guys like Ewerton Teixeira and Lechi Kurvanov didn't do that great in MMA considering how much training and fighting background they have, and how they were at the very top of the Kyokushin food chain.

I'm not arguing Kyokushin guys can do well in rulesets with head punches involved, but I'm arguing the fact that it's part of the training and that "many" are successful. They can be counted on one hand. As you mentioned Muay Thai, look at how many Muay Thai fighters are at the top of Kickboxing in comparison, and those fighters usually are not even fighters who were at the top of stadium Muay Thai.

If according to you the majority of Kyokushin dojos train ichebeki nowadays, can you please provide some links to those dojos here in the UK or even in Western Europe? I bet you'd have a hard time finding more than a very few, it's clearly not the majority, to my biggest regret.

 

[Tayski]

What KyokushinAnalyst has said is true. Ichegeki is also very popular here.

sensei williams and sensei laurier organize and host them. They happen often

I also want to say anyone who claims kyokushinkaikan doesn't teach how to defend the face never trained it.

I have studied at Ishi and kokoro dojo and both taught it. I have been in street fights, I know how to defend my face from punches.

If Ichebeki is very popular here in the UK and those events happen often, can you provide some links to those events please?
I'd like to visit them

Regarding the training, studying some headpunch defence or doing some clicker type sparring from time to time isn't the same as actually training to fight under Kickboxing type of rules. I know for a fact that both Ishi and Kokoro dojos which are part of the IFK don't sparr with full contact head punches on a regular basis as part of their training.

Also, let's not bring street fights in the conversation please...

 

[Karatelurker]

If Ichebeki is very popular here in the UK and those events happen often, can you provide some links to those events please?
I'd like to visit them

Regarding the training, studying some headpunch defence or doing some clicker type sparring from time to time isn't the same as actually training to fight under Kickboxing type of rules. I know for a fact that both Ishi and Kokoro dojos which are part of the IFK don't sparr with full contact head punches on a regular basis as part of their training.

Also, let's not bring street fights in the conversation please...

yes we do. you can come right now. We train it in the dojo. you should come visit. Ill gladly show you and fight you.

osu

Links? I couldn't even find links for the tournament that happened in traditional rules last week at our dojo. Just because its not on a website or doesn't have a wiki page doesn't mean anything.

 

[Daniel Fox]

honestly. This is time consuming, Annoying, and time i could be spent on finishing my research. Nobody is bending or moving to facts. its all anecdote, feelings and general beliefs when confronted with the truth of the research and extensive interviews.


Its clear nobody is going to change their minds, and don't care what the data shows, as they will always see it as not the full picture because it doesn't conform to their beliefs.

This was a huge waste of time. i was warned by Ichegeki and gutsmann gym members that sherdog is pure cancer and i should avoid it, but As this was the top search result in my search engine, i wanted to correct many of the myths in the earlier thread. As many people clearly see it.

What a waste. No amount of evidence will convince. and the goalpost will continue shifting for the end of time.


I am just going to delete my account. So any posts after this i won't be able to debunk but doesn't mean i can't. Im sure to the joy of many. As this is clearly no place for honest scientific debate.

I focus my time training with the people others lied about, and working on finishing and publishing my study.

Sherdog is like anyplace else in society, there are nice people and there are assholes. Regarding Kyokushin, old school Kyokushin guys are among the toughest people I have known.

 

[Tayski]

Alot to debunk


I was arguing with others, so you start by saying your point is, which is different to what i was arguing and not really relevant.

your main argument now is that kyokushin is not as good as other styles or doesn't have as many people representing it. which is totally different to the arguments being had. I am talking about the fighters who do transition, how well they do, and the results. Not if kyokushin is better than Muay Thai, or how more of them are in mma than boxers. I never said that and its honestly very off topic. You seem now to not be responding or refuting my points, and more just trying to assert Kyokushin isn't as good. Which is not a subject I am willing to debate, nor was i talking about it.

I was reporting my research and findings on the above stated.
That kyokushin isn't fish out of water with head punches, that they do have answers to it within kyokushin, the very common use of ichegeki rules, and how well they transition to kickboxing generally. The ones who decide to do so. Not That Kyokushin is better than muay thai. Please refrain from those points as i wasn't arguing or discussing that and have no interest in playing which style is superior


Filho didn't train head punches. Yes. But he did amazing right out of the gate. Meaning he was proficient. You posting that proved my point.
Again I Don't know how much i can repeat myself as you guys repeat the same arguments. what you say doesn't stand up to scrutiny. TKD and other styles would have had the same results. They didn't. So clearly kyokushin fighters are versed in head defense. Not saying its as good as muay thai, but they have a massively positive record against muay thai, with fast transitions. Which is just pure evidence.


Ill take shokei matsui and the heads of IKO 1 over yours. sorry. I just do. I am sorry you went to schools that never showed you how to block head punches. But the head of the org says its not. and again hundreds of tournaments world wide and 60 + in Japan which is the epicenter of kyokushin. Like Muay Thai in Thailand. Its the cultural head of it all, and dictates what follows.

I was first arguing with people who said they never trained head punches in the gym. now you are saying it only counts if they trained it everyday.......Deep sigh. I do wish this stuff could stay on topic. Thats a different thing all together.

Lets stop arguing this point. We can sit here all day and say ancedotes. Its not so important to the overall point I am making.


Second you keep moving the goalpost much like your friend its very annoying to debate this way. Who said Anything about only top level guys???? My study has over 500 fighters in it. Not just the ones you listed. You assert only high level guys had success......totally incorrect. What are you basing that on? All the krush fighters I listed, dozens in shoot boxing, ETC ETC are just kyokushinkai with black belts who are now more than double positive in kickboxing.

You also use the lack of people going to other orgs as Proof it isn't as good. Extremely strange. almost nobody from kyokushin even tries to go to glory. so the data isn't their. The percentage of kyokushinkai who leave knockdown or ichegeki rules and venture out is extremely small. All kickboxers who compete are going to want to go to their best Promotion. Easily explains that. You cannot take lack of interest and extract that to Proof.

Again my study is based on those who did transition to kickboxing or that style of fighting and how they did. and its Overwhelmingly positive

Your MMA point is really honestly......I don't know how to say it Its bizarre. ewerton is 3-1 with a submission loss and lechi won his only fight.......

Very few muay thai champions went to MMA and did well. Why is buakaw not the UFC champ? Well honestly Not many transition to mma. Most learn Muay Thai for mma. They don't become champions in muay thai then switch over. Look at all the k-1 greats from all styles. very few did well. but thats because of wrestling and submission. So thats a really really bizarre point and frankly grasping at straws.


You can discredit anyones wins if you play the go back machine. Who did they beat to be good? How old were they? Kinda childish honestly. a win over a legend is a win over a legend Lebanner had a lot of wins after that too. The point is Shouldn't he have easily lost all his fights? Hes going up against fighters who trained only head punches all their lives. Why didn't they smoke him. Overeem is a steroid using freak. Weird example. thats his only real loss. All others were pretty close decisions.

Again you make a strange assumption I only research the top guys who transitioned. Again they fought the best in the world in K-1 and did great for the most part. Top level vs top level. It should have come out 500-500. It didn't. Which is a good sign. Also the talent pool for kyokushin is scattered as all the world tournaments are separate. so when you say top level, you mean within IKO1 where as the other styles more unified were just straight up the best.

Also...everyone in k-1 is top level.....so thats just......what do i say against that? You say well it was only the top kyokushin guys.......well it was only the top muay thai and kickboxers too....thats the point....k-1 heavyweights at that time were the best of the best....and the kyokushin guys did very well....What a strange point.

I really don't like assertions without facts. you say most of them didn't do that well......The facts don't support that. they are double positive collectively where as pro boxers and TKD are negative. Shoot boxers, Muay Thai, sanda etc etc all have different ranges of success but we can go into that later.
You literally can't say counted on one hand. study of over 500 is way more than that. You are only listing guys who were high profile and you knew about....and they did well. Most of the smaller fighters did well too in krush, shootboxing, K-1 max etc.

you can't take a lack of interest as proof of fact. If one style doesn't go to another sport doesn't mean it isn't effective. it means there is no interest. Almost nobody from sanda goes to kyokushin rules fights or muay thai fights. that doesn't mean it isn't effective or as good. It means Sanda practitioners for the most part like to stay in their own sport. But we can analyze those who did and see how they fared. (I have that data too)

If what you were saying was true they would have a negative record in kickboxing overall as you said only a few were successful....that is provably false. TKD actually does have a negative record. so does boxing.

Saying something is irrelevant doesn't mean it is. For k-1 all had to cross train. Kyokushin guys didn't bring in Muay Thai fighters to learn it. Thats not why they are at ichegeki. its to learn what they are going to do. Same as you said for the muay thai guys. so that is relevant and a strange point.

Honestly these replies are really scatterbrained and all over the place. Where as you seem to agree with me in principle but keep arguing for some reason. Its actually becoming extremely unpleasant as the goalpost keeps moving and the subject of debate keeps moving and points are not properly addressed. Id prefer to end it here. But I will reply if needed.

Whatever you were arguing with others about, you still said that most Kyokushin dojos do Ichebeki and sparr with head punches, which I have to say is far from the truth at least here in Western Europe, hence why my initial post. But you had to argue that back too.

I'm not saying that Kyokushin is not as good as other styles, please don't put words in my mouth. All arts have their strengths and weaknesses.

It doesn't have that many people representing it at the very top of fight sports like Kickboxing or MMA though, only a very few and most of them are retired now. That's a fact.

You keep talking about Kyokushin fighters who transition and how well they do. Realistically recent Knockdown world champions haven't had great transitions in Kickboxing or MMA. Ewerton Teixeira and Lechi Kurbanov are examples and there might be others. You talk about their wins but they fought low level fighters in MMA and couldn't finish most of them and even lost some. I indeed look at success by who has been successful, is that not how it works?

If fighting is your profession and you want a successful career with money you'll go to the big organisations and try to get to the top. That's how it works by the way. It's not everybody's goal I appreciate that, but those who do try to be successful aim for that.

Overeem might be a steroid freak but that didn't make him invincible and he got knocked out tons. Ewerton teixeira got double collar clinched and kneed and literally didn't know what to do and fell on his face like he had been killed. That was while being the current IKO1 Knockdown world champion.

You misunderstand what Azam and I are saying. Of course our dojos taught head punch defense / how to block head punches, it's part of the syllabus, you do it in kihon and kata and also goshin jutsu. However regular sparring with head punches with or without boxing gloves wasn't part of the training, and still isn't in most of those places here. It doesn't have to be done everyday, again please don't put words in my mouth, but at least once a week or fortnightly, and again from what I've seen in the several dojos I've trained at and from what I've been told about other places that I didn't have a chance to visit it's not the case in most dojos here.

It's your choice not to believe us and believe the head of another organisation over there in Japan, and to be honest of course the head of an organisation will tell you how complete the system is. What I actually hear about Matsui is how some of his highly ranked students leave his organisation because he's not adapting Kyokushin to modern days or improving the format and rules of Knockdown tournaments, unlike Royama for example who seems to want to go that way with Shinken Shobu: http://www.kyokushinkan.org/en/?page_id=1707
Where can we read or see contents of IKO1 doing such a thing?

I'm asking real questions, not trying to troll, but you're just dodging them.

1. As it seems to be the majority of dojos who sparr and fight with head punches, please feel free to link their websites or Facebook pages, or videos of that sparring.
2. You talk about hundreds of Ichebeki events, apparently even more popular and common than Knockdown events now. Can you please also link to those pages? Videos?
3. Who do you have in Glory or other top Kickboxing organisation nowadays who are at the top and from a Kyokushin background?
4. Where can we find video contents from the IKO1 with head punching sparring and fighting?
5. Where can we read or see content of IKO1 running shinken shobu or ichebeki tournaments?
6. Can you give us examples of those hundreds of successful Kyokushin fighters that you have in your list? Just post some links to videos we'll be happy with that.

You seem to like talking about facts and mention who you know, what you heard, etc. Let's just look at real stuff: websites, video contents, fighter rankings, recent fights, etc. That's more factual than you telling me x said this, y told me this, w trained with me, z sparred with me.

ps: I'm not moving the "goalpost". You're the one who did that. Look again at my first post and your reply. When I read from you about how ichebeki is now very popular with hundreds of events, people training it at their dojo etc. I feel I have to tell you and whoever else is reading this thread that it's not the case here, much like Azam was telling you. But instead of taking our word for what it is or proving us with real contents that we're wrong, you'd rather try to launch a massive debate with posts which are as long as novels drifting in all kind of directions with massive bias. Please look again at my first comment and your response

You seem to take this discussion way too personal. Take a chill pill and show us some contents.

 

[Tayski]

honestly. This is time consuming, Annoying, and time i could be spent on finishing my research. Nobody is bending or moving to facts. its all anecdote, feelings and general beliefs when confronted with the truth of the research and extensive interviews.


Its clear nobody is going to change their minds, and don't care what the data shows, as they will always see it as not the full picture because it doesn't conform to their beliefs.

This was a huge waste of time. i was warned by Ichegeki and gutsmann gym members that sherdog is pure cancer and i should avoid it, but As this was the top search result in my search engine, i wanted to correct many of the myths in the earlier thread. As many people clearly see it.

What a waste. No amount of evidence will convince. and the goalpost will continue shifting for the end of time.


I am just going to delete my account. So any posts after this i won't be able to debunk but doesn't mean i can't. Im sure to the joy of many. As this is clearly no place for honest scientific debate.

I focus my time training with the people others lied about, and working on finishing and publishing my study.

Funny how you revive a thread that died 8 years ago by writing posts which are as long as books, and then tell us it's time consuming and will delete your account. Oh the irony.

By the way as you mention evidence and convincing people; evidence will convince people, at least it will convince me. You've shown 0 evidence, only words though.

 

[Tayski]

yes we do. you can come right now. We train it in the dojo. you should come visit. Ill gladly show you and fight you.

osu

Links? I couldn't even find links for the tournament that happened in traditional rules last week at our dojo. Just because its not on a website or doesn't have a wiki page doesn't mean anything.

You're very lucky if that's the case. You're talking about the BKK Kokoro not the Enshin dojo right?
I've checked out the websites and facebook pages of those dojos and have only ever seen pictures and videos of Knockdown training and sparring (I'm not saying what you're telling me isn't true).

I'm sure some events happen without being promoted, like an interclub hosted at your dojo. But I could easily post url's of the websites for the IKO1 English Open, the BKK regional tournament, the BKK British Open, the IKK Scottish Open, etc. all of them Knockdown tournaments. Even the interclubs tend to be advertised on Facebook or the dojos' websites. If full contact Kyokushin tournaments with head punches exist in the UK I'm sure they would at least advertise on Facebook or some kind of page right?

 

[Karatelurker]

Whatever you were arguing with others about, you still said that most Kyokushin dojos do Ichebeki and sparr with head punches, which I have to say is far from the truth at least here in Western Europe, hence why my initial post. But you had to argue that back too.

I'm not saying that Kyokushin is not as good as other styles, please don't put words in my mouth. All arts have their strengths and weaknesses.

It doesn't have that many people representing it at the very top of fight sports like Kickboxing or MMA though, only a very few and most of them are retired now. That's a fact.

You keep talking about Kyokushin fighters who transition and how well they do. Realistically recent Knockdown world champions haven't had great transitions in Kickboxing or MMA. Ewerton Teixeira and Lechi Kurbanov are examples and there might be others. You talk about their wins but they fought low level fighters in MMA and couldn't finish most of them and even lost some. I indeed look at success by who has been successful, is that not how it works?

If fighting is your profession and you want a successful career with money you'll go to the big organisations and try to get to the top. That's how it works by the way. It's not everybody's goal I appreciate that, but those who do try to be successful aim for that.

Overeem might be a steroid freak but that didn't make him invincible and he got knocked out tons. Ewerton teixeira got double collar clinched and kneed and literally didn't know what to do and fell on his face like he had been killed. That was while being the current IKO1 Knockdown world champion.

You misunderstand what Azam and I are saying. Of course our dojos taught head punch defense / how to block head punches, it's part of the syllabus, you do it in kihon and kata and also goshin jutsu. However regular sparring with head punches with or without boxing gloves wasn't part of the training, and still isn't in most of those places here. It doesn't have to be done everyday, again please don't put words in my mouth, but at least once a week or fortnightly, and again from what I've seen in the several dojos I've trained at and from what I've been told about other places that I didn't have a chance to visit it's not the case in most dojos here.

It's your choice not to believe us and believe the head of another organisation over there in Japan, and to be honest of course the head of an organisation will tell you how complete the system is. What I actually hear about Matsui is how some of his highly ranked students leave his organisation because he's not adapting Kyokushin to modern days or improving the format and rules of Knockdown tournaments, unlike Royama for example who seems to want to go that way with Shinken Shobu: http://www.kyokushinkan.org/en/?page_id=1707
Where can we read or see contents of IKO1 doing such a thing?

I'm asking real questions, not trying to troll, but you're just dodging them.

1. As it seems to be the majority of dojos who sparr and fight with head punches, please feel free to link their websites or Facebook pages, or videos of that sparring.
2. You talk about hundreds of Ichebeki events, apparently even more popular and common than Knockdown events now. Can you please also link to those pages? Videos?
3. Who do you have in Glory or other top Kickboxing organisation nowadays who are at the top and from a Kyokushin background?
4. Where can we find video contents from the IKO1 with head punching sparring and fighting?
5. Where can we read or see content of IKO1 running shinken shobu or ichebeki tournaments?
6. Can you give us examples of those hundreds of successful Kyokushin fighters that you have in your list? Just post some links to videos we'll be happy with that.

You seem to like talking about facts and mention who you know, what you heard, etc. Let's just look at real stuff: websites, video contents, fighter rankings, recent fights, etc. That's more factual than you telling me x said this, y told me this, w trained with me, z sparred with me.

ps: I'm not moving the "goalpost". You're the one who did that. Look again at my first post and your reply. When I read from you about how ichebeki is now very popular with hundreds of events, people training it at their dojo etc. I feel I have to tell you and whoever else is reading this thread that it's not the case here, much like Azam was telling you. But instead of taking our word for what it is or proving us with real contents that we're wrong, you'd rather try to launch a massive debate with posts which are as long as novels drifting in all kind of directions with massive bias. Please look again at my first comment and your response

You seem to take this discussion way too personal. Take a chill pill and show us some contents.

lol he already addressed everything you said. No wonder he left. this is going in circles. He addressed all your points, about these fighters glory everything. You lost this argument soundly. While reading your post his post you replied to the last 3 times answered all of this already

You can come to our dojo anytime and ill show you in person. Ill take pictures next time i go to training i guess.

also you seem like a massive douchebag in the way you talk and respond.


and to kyokushinanalyst Thanks for your writing and i do hope you comeback. Don't let idiots ruin sherdog for you

 

[Tayski]

@Kyokushinanalyst @Karatelurker I haven't shown disrespect to you guys and only questioned some of your statements, but you clearly lack respect and throw insults. That's not how you prove your points. Call me names all you want, if you just throw your opinion as fact and can't answer back without judgement then I know who the "douchebags" are. I was a BKK member for several years and sparring with head punches was unheard of in most of the BKK dojos I visited, and yet I'm still giving you the benefit of the doubt. If you call me a douche-bag for stating what I've observed from several years of training in Kyokushin, then you sound like butt-hurt fuckers who can't accept reality.

 

[Tayski]

I didn't call you a douchebag. Don't at me. and you have shown me nothing but disrespect and become aggressive with me and ignore my points even tho u say you agree, the go on to argue points i never made.

Read your comments again. All I initially said is that ichebeki and kickboxing training as part of Kyokushin training is a myth over here in Western Europe and certainly not the majority as you claim it is. All I ask is for evidence to be proven wrong. And here we are still talking back and forth and waiting for evidence with simple URLs to websites or videos. Is it so hard to find?

 

[AndyMaBobs]

Fucking hell what is this bollocks?

 

[Tayski]

lol he already addressed everything you said. No wonder he left. this is going in circles. He addressed all your points, about these fighters glory everything. You lost this argument soundly. While reading your post his post you replied to the last 3 times answered all of this already

You can come to our dojo anytime and ill show you in person. Ill take pictures next time i go to training i guess.

also you seem like a massive douchebag in the way you talk and respond.


and to kyokushinanalyst Thanks for your writing and i do hope you comeback. Don't let idiots ruin sherdog for you

And you sound like you're just @Kyokushinanalyst with another account. Creating an account as this discussion is going and praising him for his posts. None of our questions got answered, none of our points have been proven wrong. Keep dreaming about your training and telling others they're douche bags for having a different opinion. I wonder why I can find shit lots of media of knockdown training from the Kokoro dojo but none of kickboxing sparring. I still give you the benefit of the doubt and you can't appreciate that. Just keep dreaming that your training is perfect and without flaws, you're no better than the Muay Thai elitists who post here. I don't care about wining or losing arguments. However I asked for some evidence and still got fuck all.

 

[Tayski]

Funny. you site your friend and your experience at the dojo but here is a post of him saying head punches were used.....so you guys lied?

cause heres him saying most dojos do and he trained it at his in london....which you guys told me wasn't true. and this other guy in the thread also said his does.....But again I conceed.


how many videos is enough? nothing will satisfy you and you will continue to argue this forever. even tho i conseeded the point as you insist outside japan it isn't true (even tho you guys have contradicting statements) As I said in my last point i conceed that point. its not common in europe but it is in japan




must i sit here posting links all day? This is pointless. I am trying to avoid niconico (these events air in japan so they don't go on youtube much) as niconico is region blocked outside of japan for a lot of it.

how many?

can we just agree to disagree now?

Dude we know there are tournaments with head punches, but they are still rare and not at all common in Europe, nor is the training for this type of fighting in European dojos. Where are the links of the IKO1 organising those as you claim?

 

[AndyMaBobs]

I fail to see what is difficult to understand about a martial art that only occasionally trains head punches, if at all, depending on your dojo, is lacking in the head punching department when compared to styles that are all about punching someone in the head.

Karate is a bad ass martial art, but it has flaws in the kickboxing department, there's no shame in that, They'd still probably kick my ass, but I don't understand the denial of it being a flaw in the approach to training the art utilises. Even training it on occasion or even a tiny bit every session is not the same as training and game planning around being able to hit someone in the head.

 

[Karatelurker]

And you sound like you're just @Kyokushinanalyst with another account. Creating an account as this discussion is going and praising him for his posts. None of our questions got answered, none of our points have been proven wrong. Keep dreaming about your training and telling others they're douche bags for having a different opinion. I wonder why I can find shit lots of media of knockdown training from the Kokoro dojo but none of kickboxing sparring. I still give you the benefit of the doubt and you can't appreciate that. Just keep dreaming that your training is perfect and without flaws, you're no better than the Muay Thai elitists who post here. I don't care about wining or losing arguments. However I asked for some evidence and still got fuck all.

he did reply to everything. you just failed to read it. I said you can come to my dojo and train with me. He said he lives in Japan how are we the same person? I will gladly meet you at kokoro and prove that. Come here anytime and fight us

ask for kevin

 

[AndyMaBobs]

I never argued against any of that.

This is why i am frustrated. I never said it wasn't a flaw. I just reported my findings that surprisingly they do well, and the biggest issue is the clinch. and talked about how they transition.

I even said posts ago if they only train for world tournaments and don't ever put on gloves they will need to start doing that before transitioning. but that those who do actually do pretty good (like filho)
This is really frustrating

I don't think people with sense were arguing that kyokushin fighters necessarily struggled in kickboxing, more so in MMA, where KK specialists are few and far between. Of course people like Filho and Hug did well in kickboxing, but I'm sure I recall them saying that punching to the face was a hurdle to get over. Bare in mind that no one posting in this thread saw the hours of training they probably put in before those fights where they were getting lit up with head punches just to prepare

 

[AndyMaBobs]

I also want to point out that neither KarateLurker or KarateAnalyst are ever viewing this thread at the same time, and there are many windows of time in which neither are viewing the thread, but myself and Tay are always visible. This indicates that you're both the same person.

Now I'm not judging or saying thats a fact, I'm just saying that multiple accounts on sherdog are not allowed and if you are using both you should probably stop because otherwise one of the mods will probably ban both of your accounts.

 

[Tayski]

I knew it. I knew it! You ask for videos of the tournaments, i give them to you. now you say thats not enough. i knew you would do this and will keep doing it forever. nothing will satisfy you.


Fine then. I conceed the point. You are correct. Its rare in europe. are we done now? I am not going to sit here posting links and giving all my papers sources before its even finished

You're not showing evidence of the claims you make. No one said those tournaments are inexistant. Posting old school videos of Pettas fighting in that format is useless. Where are the IKO1 videos of such tournaments?