Kyokushin Karate MMA Fighters

[f1ipmode]

Thanks for the info guys. Yeah I figured the chop might be illegal to the back or back of neck in MMA.

You know one thing that's a bit concerning about the ridge hand is the ligaments in your wrist might pop from the torque since they'll be suddenly stretched if you've never trained that type of strike before.

 

[ChachiKiller]

Thanks for the info guys. Yeah I figured the chop might be illegal to the back or back of neck in MMA.

You know one thing that's a bit concerning about the ridge hand is the ligaments in your wrist might pop from the torque since they'll be suddenly stretched if you've never trained that type of strike before.

When you throw the ridgehand you need to keep pull the fingers to the outside (towards the pinky). That keeps the tendon tight. If you actually look at it, it is more sensible from an injury prevention perspective since in a punch the wrist can fold four ways and there is very little support.

I throw it off a very hard heavy bag with no issues. I would admit that you would want to get used to it.

 

[Hotora86]

I am doing research on this topic for a video i am doing. I know its an old dead thread but so much bullshit from this guy and other i felt the need to address it.

First. Kyokushin tournaments have 2 styles. Traditional with no head punches. and Ichegeki kick rules with gloves and head punches. If you don't train for competitions you learn about head punches in the dojo. everyone does. Its like saying BJJ don't know Gi if they do no gi tournaments. Absolutely stupid.

Second. Muay thai generally has terrible punches and boxing and all Muay thai fighters train boxing for K-1. So saying Kyokushin needs boxing is a mute point. to compete at the highest level of striking you need it. All muay thai fighters in K-1 heavyweights also train kyokushin. like ray sefo who would always bring in feitosa to his camps. K-1 was and is still the MMA of kickboxing. you need to know it all to win now.

And actually i train at ichegeki Japan. So I can call you out on saying "Kyokushin guys even admit adopting to head punches was hard". I know you are lying.

Half the kyokushinkai who went to K-1 train, trained or taught at ichegeki and ive had the pleasure of talking to them. Nicholas Pettas, Filho and Kin all told me outright it wasn't a big deal. Tons of smaller fighters who compete in the japan opens and max here in japan still going on in the k-1 banner also have zero problems adapting. The biggest thing they need to learn is blocking with gloves. Bare handed face punches are no threat. They just need to rework the blocks with gloves circumference. which isn't hard and doesn't take long to teach. They obviously learned how to defend head punching in the dojo for years. Its not really super different to blocking Body shots. So you are making that up straight out. and like i said Muay thai fighters all have to train boxing for K-1. so its a weakness of all styles and a moot point.

I know pettas trainer told me personally he had no issues getting used to it. all it did was piss him off to ever get touched in the face and hed beat u harder in the gym. (had a pro boxing coach come in said that) Jan Soukup, I actually watching him prepare for K-1 against Kyotaro (also a kyokushin guy) Him dealing with head punches was not a concern at all as he took too it naturally.

and Nakahara has found more success in ichegeki kick rules and MMA with head punches which he struggled without in traditional.
Its a widly believed myth because kyokushin isn't televised much that they don't know what to do with head punches. Like aiming slightly higher is somehow going to throw us into catastrophe. Simply stupid.

Shin and ichegeki tournaments happen daily in europe russia and japan. I attend them regularly. Masaaki noiri is another kyokushin champ in ichegeki who went to K-1 and dominated with zero boxing training before hitting the big leagues. Everyone in K-1 like MMA trains with all striking styles as u want no holes in your game. So that's not an argument. You can't use it against kyokushin and not other styles.


Its honestly stupid people really believe kyokushin can't deal with headpunches cause they watch 1 of 5 highlights on youtube of really old footage from like the 6th world tournament (where most of the Ko highlights come from) of traditional rules.

For people who actually study the art. None of this is a revelation. Just annoys me to see people who clearly never trained talk about it this way. Ichigeki kick rules are almost more often used In Japan than Traditional at this point.

Wow, way to necro a thread that died 8 years ago.
Thanks for the post anyway, I guess.

And if anyone is interested in the answer to TS' question - here's a list of Karate blackbelts in MMA:
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/karate-blackbelts-in-mma.3256127/

Out of those:

• 30 are Kyokushin black belts
• 11 are Kyokushin-offshoot black belts

 

[Thycidides]

I am doing research on this topic for a video i am doing. I know its an old dead thread but so much bullshit from this guy and other i felt the need to address it.

First. Kyokushin tournaments have 2 styles. Traditional with no head punches. and Ichegeki kick rules with gloves and head punches. If you don't train for competitions you learn about head punches in the dojo. everyone does. Its like saying BJJ don't know Gi if they do no gi tournaments. Absolutely stupid.

Second. Muay thai generally has terrible punches and boxing and all Muay thai fighters train boxing for K-1. So saying Kyokushin needs boxing is a mute point. to compete at the highest level of striking you need it. All muay thai fighters in K-1 heavyweights also train kyokushin. like ray sefo who would always bring in feitosa to his camps. K-1 was and is still the MMA of kickboxing. you need to know it all to win now.

.

I don't think Ray Sefo is a good example of Mauy Thai and neither is the heavyweight or light heavy weight division.

 

[Sanshou Kid]

'kin hell, this thread is from before I even had an account here!

No KarateStylist in it, either, boooooo.

 

[Azam]

I am doing research on this topic for a video i am doing. I know its an old dead thread but so much bullshit from this guy and other i felt the need to address it..........

As someone who has switched from Kyokushin to Daido Juku - I can tell you straight out from experience - there is a big difference when switching from knockdown karate (no head punches) to head punches. To say otherwise is not telling the truth.

The distance is the biggest difference and it changes how you time techniques & how easily you get hit. Nearly all Kyokushin fighters that switched from knockdown karate to kickboxing in the beginning had problems with head punches; Andy Hug, Filho, Kin, Pettas, M.Thompson etc etc.

Aiming punches at someone's head is easy (slightly further up) but you won't be better at it than someone who does it all the time (i.e. muay thai, boxing, kickboxing, point fighting etc etc). If you think that punching to the head is only a matter of increasing your punches by two inches up - you'll be in for a shock if you think it's as easy as just aiming further up.

Most Kyokushin practitioners train knockdown karate rules not ichigeki rules. If you cross train then it's different.

Maasaki Noiri trains shin karate not kyokushin.

 

[Jimmy Jazz]

doesn't matter if you think that, its not reality. First thats a rediculous thing to say. Mikes gym, and golden glory probably better at muay thai than 90 percent of traditional muay thai gyms and revolutionized the art.

What basis do you have for that?

 

[Jimmy Jazz]

Dutch Style Muay Thai is what you see in MMA. Not the traditional front foot bouncing, heavy teep kick style of the traditional thai style. That more punching heavy Dutch style pioneered by Aerts, Badr Hari all those guys from those gyms, is what most people started emulating and training in.

I am not saying Traditional Muay Thai is bad, and i probably overstated it, but I do think most would agree Guys like Badr Hari, stefan leko all the heavyweight Guys who really pushed the envelop in K-1 came from those camps.

there are still guys like bua kaw. and in Thailand. but for Thais who venture out of Their circuits and go to glory, or other kickboxing promotions like K-1. A lot of them go to Golden glory, or Change the style a bit to more of that dutch style. For every Bua Kaw, their is a gohkan saki now.

their is a great documentary on this, About "dutch" Muay Thai, deckkers, and the eventual guys from golden glory who built off that. Ill see if I can find a link on youtube. If i remember the name of the damn thing.

well most people think dekkers is the best dutch kickboxer/muay thai fighter, and he lost to thais so.....

 

[Jimmy Jazz]

Come on. Most of his losses to thai's were absolute bullshit decisions that were just for the hometown guy. everyone knows that. second dekkers had an ultra aggressive non traditional style. which laid the basis for this new hyper aggressive dutch style. thats the point. he didn't fight like the thais. starting slow. feeling out. tons of teeps. He went like a bat out of hell a lot. Huge heavy punches. he had tons of KO's by punch. which isn't normal for muay thai. more kick and elbow ko's normally. He laid the foundation for what followed and was emulated.

That's the point I am making

well he got ko'd by Coban fair and square. Nothing against the dutchs style, but they didnt revolutionize muay thai.

 

[Jimmy Jazz]

. Huge heavy punches. he had tons of KO's by punch. which isn't normal for muay thai. more kick and elbow ko's normally. He laid the foundation for what followed and was emulated.

.

 

[Jimmy Jazz]

so you think the fact that most train dutch style now using one fight one guy lost proves that the dutch style wasn't a huge shake up to muay thai and that thai fighters aren't training at golden glory in mass?


You seem for some reason like you just don't want that to be true...but i can't understand why.

Should I post a bua kaw loss to prove something? No that proves nothing.

Dutch style is taking off, it was different. Dekkers shook up the Muay Thai world and his aggressive style laid the foundation for it. Everyone agrees dekkers is one of the greats who had an impact on the sport.

You showing him losing A fight (he literally won hundreds) Doesn't prove anything. It doesn't mean nobody can beat the dutch style. but it certainly had an impact on the sport and changed how everyone fought and saw it.

yeah but the dutch style hasnt really gone to the top of muay thai has it?

 

[Jimmy Jazz]

Most Dutch Fighters can't fight in the tiny lights weights. Which makes this a mute discussion I suppose. They are all heavy weights. That style suits it better. Very few dutch fighters fight in the Traditional Thai weight classes. but Dekkers proved how effective it was by running through a lot of them in the early rounds which were traditionally feeling out rounds.

I would saki, Aerts, Badr Hari, leko, on and on. I think these guys are just as good and in most cases better than 90 percent of Thai's. Buakaw and Yodensenklai (pardon my spelling) are still probably the top. but I don't think you need to be number 1 to shake it up. A lot of muay thai history was basically only thais with few foreigners. thats changed by a huge margin since then because of this.

Dekkers certainly did. and like i said u can watch tons of documentaries of commentators and thai legends saying as much. Golden glory is extremely popular in thai land.

The heavy weights are dominated by this style and id argue They are up their with the greats. It went from being sort of all that same style, to a totally new one coming in and being very competitive and on top in the heavyweights. Thats a big shake up imo

did you watch the video I posted. you might find it interesting? i dont think heavyweights are as skilled as the lighter classes personally.

 

[Azam]

Alot of semantics and nonsense......

If you think Francisco Filho never had problems with boxing - you need to take time and re-watch his K1 fights.

You just admitted that Andy Hug had to cross train in boxing? Why? Because he had issues with boxing like most pure knockdown fighters do.

You just provided examples contrary to your statements.

Most Kyokushin dojos do not fight ichigeki rules. I was with IKO1 - we never did ichigeki rules & it was never in the syllabus.

Kyokushin, shin karate, seidokaikan, oyama, Ashihara are all different. Yes they share same mother style but each is different. Shin Karate spar kickboxing rules - Kyokushin spars knockdown karate, Seidokaikan does both, Oyama does both & Ashihara have sabaki rules. I'm sorry but that is a big difference.

No you are claiming that most Kyokushin dojos train ichigeki rules - I've been to quite a few Kyokushin gyms in the London area (as w - none of them have ever done ichigeki rules. It was never part of kyokushin syllabus. Knockdown sparring is.

No offence but you sound very opinionated. Nearly everything you've said is opinions and you seem confused between kyokushin & shin karate - they are different. Are you going to tell me next Kozo Takeda was kyokushin as well?

Your claim is that Kyokushin has no issues with head punching - the only examples you've given to prove this is Noiri (who is shin karate), Filho (who had very bad boxing), Hug (had bad boxing so he got boxing coach) - Pettas is the only guy you've mentioned but you didn't mention his first fight he got knocked out by Leko - then spent the next 2 years cross training in kickboxing more before going back to fight again.

So all the examples you've given don't proof any point you've made. Also your claiming now most kyokushin gyms train kickboxing ichigeki rules - which is false.

I don't hate Kyokushin - I use to do it. I realise the pros & cons of the style. Try not to let your emotions cloud your view of it.

 

[Jimmy Jazz]

.

but did you watch that fight i showed you bro?

 

[Hotora86]

more bullshit, dodging and terrible arguments. You need to watch those fights again. You never countered any of my points.

Strange you call me opinionated when you are clearly the same and biased from juku.

1. Ichegeki is very common and most people learn head punching in the dojo. you didn't counter any of my points. 60+ in Japan in 1 year. I am with IKO 1 now and i train at this gyms. So you are lying.

There are hundreds of events yearly and again head punching is taught how to defend even in schools who don't. sorry you never learned it you are a minority.

Filho went 4-1 in his first fights against the best in the world. He did fine and had some punch ko's himself. Again if what you said was true and it was a huge adjustment He would have lost his first fights by KO by punch. Statistically Kyokushin fighters lose by Punch KO LESS than boxers in K-1. You use ancedote and not stats. You can simply state these fighters had bad boxing but they did great and thats a fact by the record. Noticed you skipped over how you lied about Kin too.

2. You are selectively reading and being dishonest its super annoying. Muay Thai fighters ALSO TRAIN BOXING FOR K-1. Everyone does. Again His boxing coach said he was competent and a natural from the beginning, aka not a fish out of water. Exactly my point. Every single Muay Thai fighter has a boxing coach for k-1. You saying that proves nothing. Really disappointed how you are arguing in such bad faith Ignoring all those sutlties to my argument. You are deliberately strawmaning. I even said these things you ignored in my first post. Name one Muay Thai fighter who didn't have a boxing coach for K-1? Your point is just stupid.

If you ask semmy shiltz, masaaki noiri or any of the people from other styles they even say its the same. Kyokushin Is Kyokushin. Only slight differences. But its the same stuff. Same tactics. You are being willfully dishonest. Ill take Noiri's word over yours. As we went pretty tit for tat in sparring.

I've never met anyone who argued otherwise, other than you who has a vested interest in it to win an argument. Its a fact and you can read it in Kiyama and Midoris books about the politics of kyokushin and how all these styles are essentially the same. again. They know more than you.

Again shin karate founders and pioneers all came from IKO 1. Its a small difference. Nobody who does the style (many of them train at ichegeki) think that. Only you. Some guy whose never trained it.


Again all the things you say are statistically false. Kyokushin fighters have double Positive numbers when taking win loss from kickboxing. You can't bullshit me. And I will sit here arguing with you for the rest of time. I research this. I have spread sheet after spread sheet of What they lose by, percentage hit, And win loss. As well as detailed interviews all coming out to be published within the year.

Ichegeki kick has long been in the curriculum again In Japan russia and Lituania. How are their hundreds of tournaments if that's not the case? You are simply lying. You have been to a school that hasn't. Some schools who focus on going to the world tournaments don't. but those fighters, Often are successful when transitioning to kickboxing anyway. The stats don't like. Please argue with facts.

I never said they had "zero problem" I said its blown out of proportion. They say its like fish out of water. Thats clearly not the case. And even if I granted your ridiculous argument how did they catch up SO fast And do so well In k-1? 1. Its not true. 2. Its not hard to adjust. Anything you say about pettas is mostly bullshit as I know the guy personally. Again his big problem was huge lasting injuries. And he trained with Filho to get ready for fights. He didn't stop to train only kickboxing for 2 years. Thats just a lie outright. He was always training with Ichegeki on many things at the time.

Again. Everyone from every style cross trains for K-1. Its a moot point. Wish you would argue in good faith. Very dishonest person. The facts are the facts. They do well in kickboxing. They transition well. They statistically get Ko'd Less than boxers. You cannot dispute the data

Wow man, every one of your posts is like a book, I feel like I need cliff notes or something!

j/k nice to have a well-spoken Karate stylist who likes long discussions around here. Check out my Karate thread too. (below in sig)

 

[Jimmy Jazz]

yes. It was very interesting. I wasn't aware of that fight.

yeah I'm glad you found it interesting bro. There were actually quite a few punchers and boxers in muay thai in the 60s 70s and 80s who could use their hands. You might want to look into them if you can. I'd be happy to show you more fights if you are interested. Dont get me wrong, i like dutch style. I use punches to set up my kicks thanks to them.

 

[Hotora86]

Thanks man. And I did. I will be incorporating it into my next research paper and I will gladly site you if I publish it on Karate and MMA. You are very kind thank you.

Sorry I seem so annoyed. but I hear this stuff often, and I devote Lots of my time to researching this. So I hate when someone tells me things about people I know personally and figures i know aren't true.

I apologize for the long rants. Its a passion subject to me and one i have spent half a decade studying and writing papers about

Thanks, please feel free to cite my thread if you would like to.

I think I know what you mean since I'm very passionate about the topic as well and I understand your annoyance but then again most of the guys discussing these things here also have extensive Karate backgrounds and their own rich experience, so while their opinions might sometimes be a bit off for specific cases I think their input is always valuable and can be applicable to other fighters / styles / cases etc. Either way, as long as we keep it civil and respectful it's always great to be involved in these discussions or even just read through them.

 

[Azam]

more bullshit, dodging and terrible arguments. You need to watch those fights again. You never countered any of my points....

1. Ichigeki is not very common. Maybe in Lithuania & Japan but not rest of the world.

2. I told you I use to do Kyokushin before switching to Daido Juku Kudo - so no bias.

3. Your Filho argument is very easy to disprove. Watch Filho fight - the reason he has very few losses is because he avoided boxing exchanges because he's smart. The times he got dragged into exchanges he got knocked out or lost decisively. Stats does not provide real answers in this case.

4. Muay Thai fighters train some boxing when going into K1 because scoring is different from MT. But do not pretend as though that is the same for Kyokushin fighters - MT fighters already know how to use their hands they spar MT rules. Kyokushin fighters spar knockdown karate mainly which does not involve using your hands to hit someone's face.

5. If you think shin karate which spars kickboxing is the same as Kyokushin where sparring is mainly knockdown karate. I can't help you.

6. You haven't given me one single fact which proves "most kyokushin schools do ichigeki rules" - you mentioned 3 countries that do it (many in those countries don't do it) - what about the rest of the world?

7. You are way too emotional about Kyokushin. Kyokushin has its advantages & disadvantages. I don't need to be dishonest.

8. Yes Kyokushin fighters do well when they cross train - I didn't argue that. That is what your evidence/facts are saying. All the people you are mentioning all cross trained & sparred kickboxing at ichigeki (most did so because they wanted to compete professionally in kickboxing at some point) - even then they still had some issues.


Very easy for me to show you - watch Lechi Kurbanov kickboxing fight against MT guy Lopes at Ichigeki 2012. Kurbanov has decades more martial arts experience but he struggled with head punching because of distance like I said. Anyone who spars knockdown karate for most of their life & does not cross train runs into the same problems. He is not the only one either - many have issue unless they cross train a lot.


Please refrain from hurling insults and calling me dishonest.

First you said there is no problem with head punches in your first post. Now you are conceding you never said they had zero problem (which means now you admit there is some problem) and it's blown out of proportion.

 

[Azam]

Ok Kyokushinanalyst you win argument. I don't really care about winning this or that argument.

You want to think the way you want to think - whether I am wrong or right - you will still think what you want to think.

Whether it is based on facts or not doesn't matter.

First you said majority does ichigeki rules in Kyokushin - now you are admitting you think only "IKO1 members" - what about rest of kyokushin? You can't speak for things not in your "hot bed" but you just said everyone in kyokushin does ichigeki rules. But you can only speak on IKO1 - you do know most Kyokushin members outside of IKO1 right? Most DO NOT DO ICHIGEKI RULES. So now you are saying only IKO1 members (even though I was an IKO1 member any there were never any ichigeki kickboxing tournaments when I was around).

I've said my points - you've ignored them all.

There is no point in replying further when you just ignore or say bullshit to everything. You went from saying no issues - to admitting there are some issues with head punching. That should tell you that you need to do more research if your view changes that quickly.

 

[Azam]

Jesus Christ...

Simple question:

1. Is Ichigeki kickboxing a part of the Kyokushinkaikan IKO1 syllabus? No.
2. Does Ichigeki kickboxing exist? Yes.
3. Is it widespread in Kyokushin? No.
4. Is Ichigeki kickboxing for professional kyokushin fighters wanting to compete in kickboxing? Yes.

THIS WAS YOUR EXACT QUOTE:

As I said most fight ichegeki kick rules and train it in the dojo. you totally ignored that.

When I said to you about kyokushin not training head punches & it being an issue - you said most of kyokushin train ichigeki rules ^^^.

Now you are saying only IKO1 members.

So now you're agreeing with me - most kyokushin members do not train head punches or spar ichigeki rules.

So if they aren't training ichigeki rules - they are training knockdown karate rules?

So if they are sparring without head contact - you think they will be as good as someone who spars egularly with head contact (kickboxers, MT, Sanda etc).

You even admitted all professional kyokushin fighters had to cross train to transition to kickboxing? WHY?

Muay Thai fighters already know how to box - they train more boxing for K1 because they can't clinch/elbow so have to rely more on hands. Include clinching/elbows and it's MT. There are plenty of good boxers in MT - what are you on about.

You can't accept weaknesses of Kyokushin. You've just spent many long ass posts defending the no head punch weakness until you admitted ichigeki rules are only within IKO1 and even in IKO1 there are a lot of dojos that don't train ichigeki rules. Then you said that professional kyokushin fighters who compete in kickboxing cross-train in kickboxing or boxing - which further proves the point I was making.

I was an IKO1 member in the UK - and never came across Ichigeki rules in the UK or in Europe (nor were there hundreds or even dozens of ichigeki tournaments here). In fact I've never even see any ichigeki tournament while in the IKO1.


I can't believe I've wasted my time with this. Good luck with your research. Don't want to waste anymore time on this.