Keenan talks about Saulo guard pass being wrong

[Judge]

Agree with this, and the other thing I’d say is that nowadays if your opponent plays closed guard he is likely either a newb or else an experienced guy with very lanky, flexible legs.

So which category does Roger Gracie fall in? If someone get's closed guard on you that is more dominant than any open guard. You cannot pass until you break it. Closed guard is a good way to get the grips you want and transition to what you want when you want.
This is like saying that if someone mounts you instead of opting to take side control they are a newb.

 

[vcmmafan]

Anyone else notice Keenan updated the heck out of his online technique site?

 

[BJJ_Rage]

In our gym nobody can do the traditional closed guard armbar on anyone who is a half decent white belt.
I can't do it and I do loads of closed guard armlocks.
I maybe could tap out the girls with it.

I wouldn’t know why Is that...it’s toyally doable, done a bunch of them as a white belt...

 

[spiderguarda]

Henry Akins created a video as a rebuttal to Keenan’s video that the closed guard break doesn’t work. I think that’s the problem which Henry points out, if you believe a technique doesn’t work and you don’t work at it, well it won’t work for you. I have people tell me they don’t use triangles because of their stocky legs so they only use it as a threat to go to another attack.

I don’t have success with the cross collar choke but I keep trying. People get too focused on what their fellow classmates see or their instructor see them getting reversed from the mount but you’ll never get better.

People who constantly try what they wish to improve on, will eventually get there. Here’s Henry’s video.

https://vip.hiddenjiujitsu.com/vsl-order-form19688417

 

[vcmmafan]

Henry Akins created a video as a rebuttal to Keenan’s video that the closed guard break doesn’t work. I think that’s the problem which Henry points out, if you believe a technique doesn’t work and you don’t work at it, well it won’t work for you. I have people tell me they don’t use triangles because of their stocky legs so they only use it as a threat to go to another attack.

I don’t have success with the cross collar choke but I keep trying. People get too focused on what their fellow classmates see or their instructor see them getting reversed from the mount but you’ll never get better.

People who constantly try what they wish to improve on, will eventually get there. Here’s Henry’s video.

https://vip.hiddenjiujitsu.com/vsl-order-form19688417

Keenan’s response on Reddit

“”video for reference. The thing about learning techniques from people that don’t compete is that they never really get to test it against multiple people who are as skilled or more skilled than them. If you are the black belt of a non competitive academy, there are maybe 1 and if you are lucky 2 people who can give you tough rolls. So they never really have an accurate measure of how effective the technique is. The techniques that are taught by competition black belts are tested against 100’s of equally skilled and equally athletic opponents. In these situations the cream will rise to the top and the most effective techniques become dominant. The reason you don’t see people passing closed guard on the knees is because it is less effective than the standing closed guard pass. Both techniques require the same amount of movement, precision and skill. But one is mechanically more effective. Proven over the course of 1000s of competitive matches. In my video I don’t go into the details of the closed guard escape not because I don’t know the technique properly. But because I know that it is less effective against equally skilled opponents. I have been training 12 years and have endlessly experimented with variations from every position. My point of the video is not that the “basic” closed guard open doesn’t work. But that it is LARGELY less effective (aka it’s a shit move and doesn’t work) And before anyone says “what about John Danaher.” He has been training with hugely talented students and fighters for most of his life. Which is also a good study ground for the effectiveness of techniques.””

 

[Foppa21]

Wouldn't say it's wrong, but you pretty much have to be damn near perfect to do it and especially against a better opponent. Given the implied simplicity of the technique, any differences in timing and skill I feel, are magnified.

The likes of Rickson, Saulo et al that get it on everyone, again I feel, tend to get it on everyone because they're Rickson and Saulo and they're that much better than everyone else.

As a example, there's a pass that I do with moderate success. I tried it on a well known BB first time I rolled with him. He asked why I set up my hands the way I did, I showed him the pass I was trying. His response was "I don't like it" at that time, he couldn't explain why just that "it feels not great". We roll and when I try the pass (naturally because we had been drilling it a lot at home) he instantly hipped away and triangled me. Now does it make the technique bad? No, I don't think so. I still have some success with it today. It just means a) the guy is that much better than me b) I need to know to defend possible counters and c) I gotta execute it better.

 

[Balto]

I generally agree with Keenan again. Standing closed guard breaks are largely more effective.

The only thing I would add is that I feel there is a time and place for techniques which are less effective. That is when I would use the knee in the butt method.

If I'm down 2 points, 30 seconds left, in closed guard -- you can bet I'm standing up and doing Keenan's way. It's the fastest and most effective way I know of to open the legs. And I need fast and effective in that situation.

If I'm up 2 points, 30 seconds left, in closed guard -- I am probably going for knee in the butt here. Why? Because I can keep a more defensive posture vs standing up. That minimizes my chances of getting swept or countered. I don't need fast and effective here; I just need safe and defensive.

And that's from a purely competition standpoint. The truth is I can't even remember being in closed guard in competition for a while now. It is not a common situation these days. Most guys are playing open guard in my division at least.

From a day to day rolling standpoint, I might need a breather after rolling a bunch of rounds in a row. A slow, deliberate knee in the butt break might be appropriate here. It still works for me often enough. Even if it doesn't work, I've still gotten my breather. I can always switch to a standing break then. There's no rule that says I can't switch strategies in the middle like that. I often do.

I don't like being too dogmatic about techniques. If you would have told me five years ago that no gi sub only would end up being almost exclusively going for leg locks, I wouldn't have believed it. It probably won't be like that in another five years either. But as for the present day, here we are. So I try to keep an open mind because things definitely change. I just know I can't predict the changes so I might some techniques in the future that don't work quite as well right now.

 

[dimmyfinster]

Henry Akins created a video as a rebuttal to Keenan’s video that the closed guard break doesn’t work. I think that’s the problem which Henry points out, if you believe a technique doesn’t work and you don’t work at it, well it won’t work for you. I have people tell me they don’t use triangles because of their stocky legs so they only use it as a threat to go to another attack.

I don’t have success with the cross collar choke but I keep trying. People get too focused on what their fellow classmates see or their instructor see them getting reversed from the mount but you’ll never get better.

People who constantly try what they wish to improve on, will eventually get there. Here’s Henry’s video.

https://vip.hiddenjiujitsu.com/vsl-order-form19688417

I watched that video and I've seen Saulo and Roger teach it. I don't think there's any magic that Henry shows that Saulo or Roger did not.

Open guard is purely sport bjj. As Mario Sperry taught us, in MMA, you punch to open the guard. I would trust Keenan opinion here over Henry Akins as Keenan has far more sportbjj tournament experience.


I also find it really unlikely that Keenan doesn't know about active toes or turning your body or how to best open the guard with the hand. Keenan is just going through the motions of demonstrating the opening. Keenan had to open the guard after standing so turning the body or how to use the arms all still apply. This is just a straw man argument from Henry.

Henry says you can counter the raised hips by pushing down. I don't know about that, it works if you're big but I'm not keeping the hip down of a big guy with my arm. As Mario Sperry says, this works on stupid person who lets you keep their hip down.



For me it comes down to this.
Is there any time that sitting works better than the stand up one? Maybe if you're fat or exhausted. I agree with lechien, time spent on this break is time I could have spent improving something else.

Great thread btw. To me, this is the best of what f12 had to offer.

 

[dimmyfinster]

I generally agree with Keenan again. Standing closed guard breaks are largely more effective.

The only thing I would add is that I feel there is a time and place for techniques which are less effective. That is when I would use the knee in the butt method.

If I'm down 2 points, 30 seconds left, in closed guard -- you can bet I'm standing up and doing Keenan's way. It's the fastest and most effective way I know of to open the legs. And I need fast and effective in that situation.

If I'm up 2 points, 30 seconds left, in closed guard -- I am probably going for knee in the butt here. Why? Because I can keep a more defensive posture vs standing up. That minimizes my chances of getting swept or countered. I don't need fast and effective here; I just need safe and defensive.

And that's from a purely competition standpoint. The truth is I can't even remember being in closed guard in competition for a while now. It is not a common situation these days. Most guys are playing open guard in my division at least.

From a day to day rolling standpoint, I might need a breather after rolling a bunch of rounds in a row. A slow, deliberate knee in the butt break might be appropriate here. It still works for me often enough. Even if it doesn't work, I've still gotten my breather. I can always switch to a standing break then. There's no rule that says I can't switch strategies in the middle like that. I often do.

I don't like being too dogmatic about techniques. If you would have told me five years ago that no gi sub only would end up being almost exclusively going for leg locks, I wouldn't have believed it. It probably won't be like that in another five years either. But as for the present day, here we are. So I try to keep an open mind because things definitely change. I just know I can't predict the changes so I might some techniques in the future that don't work quite as well right now.

So as Holt said: if you're stalling. Or fat or tired.


Here's my problem with this technique: the technique is taught as a front line technique to beginners. I don't think it's as transferable or fundamental as say, the cross choke from guard, another technique that doesn't work so well as you move up. At high blue or above, this opening is basically a specialty technique. It's not a self defense technique, so there's no excuse there either.


I think bjj is taught badly in a lot of gyms especially old school gyms. Too much time spent on low percentage moves, it takes too long for beginners to get good. A better way, imo, would be to filter down the moves to only the most effective ones - and to me this guard opening does not make the cut

 

[Balto]

So as Holt said: if you're stalling. Or fat or tired.


Here's my problem with this technique: the technique is taught as a front line technique to beginners. I don't think it's as transferable or fundamental as say, the cross choke from guard, another technique that doesn't work so well as you move up. At high blue or above, this opening is basically a specialty technique. It's not a self defense technique, so there's no excuse there either.


I think bjj is taught badly in a lot of gyms especially old school gyms. Too much time spent on low percentage moves, it takes too long for beginners to get good. A better way, imo, would be to filter down the moves to only the most effective ones - and to me this guard opening does not make the cut

Knowing when to slow down (may or may not actually be stalling depending on the situation) is a pretty serious part of competitive BJJ though.

In the video above with Kayron and Lovato, go to 7:50 or so when Lovato gets the closed guard. Kayron seems to take his time on the knees there. He could have stood earlier once he got his grip but chose not to. He starts to move towards the basic knee on butt position, and Lovato just chooses to open the guard.

I think that would be a case of the kneeling break decision working out for the best in a high level match. I doubt it generated as much pressure as a standing break, but it didn't need to. It also took less energy and was less susceptible to counters.

I just rewatched the Metamoris one with Kron and Otavio, and they were both standing in closed guard almost immediately. I think that's the more normal situation. But I just wanted to point out that there do seem to be times when knee in the butt is effective.

 

[trustdoesntrust]

So as Holt said: if you're stalling. Or fat or tired.


Here's my problem with this technique: the technique is taught as a front line technique to beginners. I don't think it's as transferable or fundamental as say, the cross choke from guard, another technique that doesn't work so well as you move up. At high blue or above, this opening is basically a specialty technique. It's not a self defense technique, so there's no excuse there either.


I think bjj is taught badly in a lot of gyms especially old school gyms. Too much time spent on low percentage moves, it takes too long for beginners to get good. A better way, imo, would be to filter down the moves to only the most effective ones - and to me this guard opening does not make the cut

This technique shouldn't be so ubiquitously taught to beginners if for no other reason than it clearly requires time and subtlety to master. I mean, how many matches have you seen where 2 white belts spent the entire match stuck in closed guard? Happens so often it's ridiculous.

This doubles back to something a Rickson-lineage black belt once told me, which is that he firmly believes the old hearsay that the Gracies only taught the real BJJ to family members, and everybody else got a different version (to him, "invisible jiu jitsu" is just the details the Gracies kept for themselves). One can speculate, but certainly the standard knee-in-the-middle closed guard break would seem to fit this category.

 

[yetanother]

I watched that video and I've seen Saulo and Roger teach it.

Roger Gracie? Roger on video admits that knee passes don't work for him against decent people.

 

[yetanother]

don't think it's as transferable or fundamental as say, the cross choke from guard, another technique that doesn't work so well as you move up. t

Recently talked at a comp with a guy who trains with Roger Gracie and the way he showed me that Roger was choking him with was definitely working (and if you tried defending you where putting your arms in armbar risk land)

 

[Machote]

Holy fucking shit I've never seen anyone do that to Leite. I'm gonna look more into this Meregali dude.

He is legit. He beat Leandro lo to win the Worlds.

 

[winterbike]

This technique shouldn't be so ubiquitously taught to beginners if for no other reason than it clearly requires time and subtlety to master. I mean, how many matches have you seen where 2 white belts spent the entire match stuck in closed guard? Happens so often it's ridiculous.

This doubles back to something a Rickson-lineage black belt once told me, which is that he firmly believes the old hearsay that the Gracies only taught the real BJJ to family members, and everybody else got a different version (to him, "invisible jiu jitsu" is just the details the Gracies kept for themselves). One can speculate, but certainly the standard knee-in-the-middle closed guard break would seem to fit this category.

Maybe 15-20 years ago they had more knowledge than most, but since then BJJ has been adopted by a lot more people and became a lot more competitive, and that makes the sport better. Whatever magical chi-powered invisible jiu-jitsu principles the Gracies were hiding have been discovered again and improved on.

 

[yetanother]

the Gracies were hiding have been discovered again and improved on.

Roger Gracie still has some cool stuff left. Clark has some good omoplata details and I bet Kron has also some stuff that makes his chaotic scramble for a sub style work. All other Gracies as I'm aware more or less suck nowadays.

 

[winterbike]

Roger Gracie still has some cool stuff left. Clark has some good omoplata details and I bet Kron has also some stuff that makes his chaotic scramble for a sub style work. All other Gracies as I'm aware more or less suck nowadays.

Them, Renzo and a few others are on top of things, but they don't make ridiculous claims about secret knowledge and illuminati stuff.

 

[Uchi Mata]

So as Holt said: if you're stalling. Or fat or tired.


Here's my problem with this technique: the technique is taught as a front line technique to beginners. I don't think it's as transferable or fundamental as say, the cross choke from guard, another technique that doesn't work so well as you move up. At high blue or above, this opening is basically a specialty technique. It's not a self defense technique, so there's no excuse there either.


I think bjj is taught badly in a lot of gyms especially old school gyms. Too much time spent on low percentage moves, it takes too long for beginners to get good. A better way, imo, would be to filter down the moves to only the most effective ones - and to me this guard opening does not make the cut

This is absolutely true. For an art that supposedly prides itself on being non-dogmatic, there are a ton of moves which are taught only because someone learned them from his teacher, or a black belt has a fondness for a specific move or position even if study of top level competition doesn't bear out its importance or utility. My coach is actually pretty progressive in this sense (watches a lot of film, is pretty quick to incorporate new developments into the curriculum), but there are still things he spends a lot of time on in his teaching that I probably won't teach at all.

As for the Akins rebuttal...there's this notion that if something can be made to work then it's a good move and we should leave it in the curriculum. That's a flawed idea. The question you should ask isn't "if I do this perfectly will it work on anyone", because that's true of almost any move no matter how bad it is. The questions you should ask are:

• Is this move better than all other options in this particular position?
• Are there situations where a better option might be impossible and therefore this move becomes the most viable option?
• Does this move serve some other pedagogical purpose, e.g. it's an effective way of teaching some fundamental motion or concept?

So for the knee in the middle closed guard pass, the answer to #1 is 'no' because standing has been shown to be more effective against a wide range of opponents and closed guard strategies. I'd say #2 is mostly 'no' since if you can't stand Tozi passing has been shown to be more viable than knee in the middle style, and you can certainly stall with half assed Tozi pass attempts if you're tired or fat. #3, I can't really think of any teaching purpose here, this is a pretty specific move in a single position that isn't widely applicable to other situations.

Following Keenan's remarks on competition, it's a lot easier to stick with the 'this can be made to work' criteria for teaching moves if you don't compete because you aren't forced to worry about efficiency so much when you're not prepping people for competition or worrying about beating high level opponents. I'm sure the way Akins teaches this move is about the best way you can, I'm not questioning his technique. I'm questioning his insistence that it's important to learn in the first place.

 

[trustdoesntrust]

Maybe 15-20 years ago they had more knowledge than most, but since then BJJ has been adopted by a lot more people and became a lot more competitive, and that makes the sport better. Whatever magical chi-powered invisible jiu-jitsu principles the Gracies were hiding have been discovered again and improved on.

sure, but my point (or the rickson bb's guy's point) was more that the legacy of that Gracie knowledge-hoarding are certain fundamental techniques being taught slightly wrong. i mean, this guy retaught very basic things like how to hold side control and mount, and I admit that I well understood his point afterward.

 

[Balto]

I'd say #2 is mostly 'no' since if you can't stand Tozi passing has been shown to be more viable than knee in the middle style, and you can certainly stall with half assed Tozi pass attempts if you're tired or fat.

I like the Tozi pass as well (it's my preferred non-standing closed guard break). I find it a lot riskier than the knee in the butt style though.

With knee in the butt, I know my opponent has very little chance of countering me. With the Tozi pass, I'm going to be stuck in an omoplata or even a triangle if I am not careful.

I use the knee in the butt like a jab attack from top closed guard. I know it isn't that effective by itself, but it's very safe and takes little effort. It also forces my opponent to at least react to do the basic counter. I can keep forcing them to readjust their hips by small amounts until I eventually feel them make a mistake. Then I can stand or use the Tozi pass at that moment to break it open knowing that I've timed it to go against a weaker closed guard than they had initially.

At black belt I've actually ended up developing a lot of moves like that. At blue/purple/brown, I hardly ever used knee in the butt. I would always stand. But it's come back for me at black belt as a jab type of move that harasses my opponent so I can force a reaction and try to time my main attack better.

I use my cross choke from bottom closed guard the same way. I pretty much only finish cross choke from closed guard against guys worse than me. However, I still use it as a main part of my competition game against other black belts. Why? Because even though I don't expect it to work, it forces my opponent to at least adjust to counter it. This gives me a chance to get my preferred grips from closed guard. If I don't have my main attacking grips, I don't try to break the existing grips (too hard usually). I just go for the cross choke and when my opponent moves his hands to defend, I use that moment to establish the grips I want.