Keenan talks about Saulo guard pass being wrong

[Matsukaze]

http://www.grapplerz.com/keenan-cornelius-instructor-taught-open-closed-guard-wrong/

 

[Matsukaze]

I found this interesting... The seated guard pass I use is kinda like the Saulo pass but with a couple of tweaks. I like the standing pass the way Keenan is doing it and I have had a lot of success with it. Although, long limbed people give me a harder time with it

 

[Kaffe]

Fair points by Keenan.

I do think there are exceptions to the closed guard is death argument. Keenan forgets the joy of bullying smaller, better guys with the tozi presh.

 

[QingTian]

I dunno, seems like it's not black and white. The basic pass needs strong posture and framing, and may not be as easy to counter as shown in Keenan's video.

 

[efficientjudo]

I think he's mistaking something that can be countered with something that's wrong - and since when is the standing pass un-counterable?

 

[mattemate]

I still use Relson's closed guard pass. Very effective. Can't pass my coach still but he's just flat out better.

You basuxbasi put yourself into a triangle, but the hand in the middle grips the belt, palm up and elbow toward the floor. No way you can be triangled from there. Free arm reaches around to opponent's far lapel and the pass is almost automatic.

 

[EGDM]

Obviously nothing is pure black and white, but I think Keenan is mostly correct. I can count on one hand the number of times I've been legitimately threatened by the kneeling closed guard breaks out of the hundreds of times it's been tried on me (including by black belts). If the guarder is doing a good closed guard with their hips on the top players lap instead of on the ground, there just isn't enough space to get this move started. The kneeling break isn't reliable enough to survive the guarder moving their hips combined with attacking the arms and grips. The standing break is WAAAAAAY higher percentage.

Could Saulo and Rickson do it to me? No doubt. But they could also do any other goofy thing they wanted, so that doesn't prove the rule.

 

[nefti]

One of the main reasons of passing on your knees is to avoid open guards especially the dlr and rdlr. And I have used this pass against heavyweights, some people you just can't stand up because of their sheer size.

 

[trustdoesntrust]

Obviously nothing is pure black and white, but I think Keenan is mostly correct. I can count on one hand the number of times I've been legitimately threatened by the kneeling closed guard breaks out of the hundreds of times it's been tried on me (including by black belts). If the guarder is doing a good closed guard with their hips on the top players lap instead of on the ground, there just isn't enough space to get this move started. The kneeling break isn't reliable enough to survive the guarder moving their hips combined with attacking the arms and grips. The standing break is WAAAAAAY higher percentage.

Could Saulo and Rickson do it to me? No doubt. But they could also do any other goofy thing they wanted, so that doesn't prove the rule.

I'm with you, but at the same time I've always suspected that kneeling guard breaks have just been taught wrong. You look at the way Saulo does his break, and there's a certain invisible jiu-jitsu thing going on that most instructors miss.

 

[Balto]

I think Keenan exaggerates the ineffectiveness of that particular kneeling break. I feel his overall point is correct though.

I use the standard kneeling break regularly still. It works in enough situations to be useful to me. There are reasons why I might use it over a standing break as well.

Overall I feel the standing break is more effective in more situations, but it's not cut and dry for me. Hence why I teach and use both.

I would agree that the chances of the kneeling break succeeding against a top closed guard player are slim to none. But I also think the chances of that standing break succeeding against a top closed guard player are not much better.

Keenan sort of hits on that point in his video. It's best to avoid closed guard entirely. If you get stuck in a good closed guard, you're in for a world of hurt no matter what guard breaking strategy you pursue.

 

[Papawash]

I still use Relson's closed guard pass. Very effective. Can't pass my coach still but he's just flat out better.

You basuxbasi put yourself into a triangle, but the hand in the middle grips the belt, palm up and elbow toward the floor. No way you can be triangled from there. Free arm reaches around to opponent's far lapel and the pass is almost automatic.

do you have vids of the Relson pass?

 

[Zankou]

I think Keenan exaggerates the ineffectiveness of that particular kneeling break. I feel his overall point is correct though.

I use the standard kneeling break regularly still. It works in enough situations to be useful to me. There are reasons why I might use it over a standing break as well.

Overall I feel the standing break is more effective in more situations, but it's not cut and dry for me. Hence why I teach and use both.

I would agree that the chances of the kneeling break succeeding against a top closed guard player are slim to none. But I also think the chances of that standing break succeeding against a top closed guard player are not much better.

Keenan sort of hits on that point in his video. It's best to avoid closed guard entirely. If you get stuck in a good closed guard, you're in for a world of hurt no matter what guard breaking strategy you pursue.

Agree with this, and the other thing I’d say is that nowadays if your opponent plays closed guard he is likely either a newb or else an experienced guy with very lanky, flexible legs. Those lanky flexy guys are the ones that kneeling guard breaks are least useful against. You just can’t generate da presh against them. While a dude with thick stumpy inflexible legs would crack right open with the same guard break. Problem is, at advanced levels that stumpy guy isn’t playing closed guard anymore.

 

[mattemate]

do you have vids of the Relson pass?

Unfortunately no I just learned it from him. It's his go to. Once he has his grips and posture established there are very few people that can stop it.

 

[mattemate]

do you have vids of the Relson pass?

Actually this is very similar. Look at about 1:20 of the video. The difference with how relson does it is that instead of a lapel grab he has the belt. Is using the belt to create a tremendous amount of pressure to push downward with what would be the right elbow in this case.

A variation on it can be to use the left hand to grab all the way underneath to their pants. Set your feet in base and stand up. They just kind of plop over to the side.

 

[rmongler]

Fair points by Keenan.

I do think there are exceptions to the closed guard is death argument. Keenan forgets the joy of bullying smaller, better guys with the tozi presh.

I always like telling folks, the easy subs are always waiting for you; like a 100 dollar bill on the sidewalk, you just have to want to pick it up. The ezekiel chokes, loop chokes, rape chokes, elbow chokes, every other 'cheap' sub a young innocent grappler starts using to successfully tap partners with regularity, who's partners then castigate them for using it to successfully tap them with regularity, and hence becoming scarred for life thereafter, sadly internalizing their abuse and transmitting it again to the next generation :^(

Nicholas Meregali attacked the easy sub, and steamrolled perhaps the greatest half-guard player in the world.

 

[yetanother]

Keenan is 100% correct. The guard pass is utter trash unless you are extremely fat and people can't close the guard on you.
A good long legged closed guarder can resist the pass for a very long time and you can get countered.
I have been passed like once by a fat guy that I couldn't get close the guard properly since I got a blue belt.

 

[tekkenfan]

do you have vids of the Relson pass?

relson pass is single underhook pass just his grips are different

 

[winterbike]

I feel the issue with kneeling passes is they require a level of finesse you only get very far in your BJJ journey. Could I get good at them at some point? Maybe. Do I feel like spending 5 years getting triangled and armbarred like a goofball when I could do something simpler and more efficient straight away (standing up)? Yup. The decision isn't hard to make.

It's not the only issue I have with some stuff on the average white belt curriculum (or "fundamentals"). Inverting and spinning for some techniques? Absolute nonsense, that's fancy and way too advanced. Triangles and armbars from closed guard that will give you a one way ticket to getting-your-ass-stacked-and-passed-town for the next three years at least? Totally fine.

 

[lechien]

It is pet peeves of mine.

I teach breaking the closed guard by standing because it keep away from basic subs and also you let the gravity works for you which is my philosophy of the gentle art.

Once the closed is breaking...by all means...go back to your usual knee slice, double underhook etc..

It is my decision because I have to limit my curriculum. So limited curriculum means I have to find something that could to all sizes. By all means, by the time you get to blue belts I would encourage your find your own paths of techniques and I direct you or discuss the pro and cons of each techniques and strategies. Saying that one concept is no good is retarded and close mind to some aspects.

I love all bjj concept and strategies..for me it is like going to a car meet and open up the bonnet and see what kind of engine is under neath.

But as a teacher, I have to limit what I can teach anf rather stick with standimg guard break. I actually teach guard break on the knees as well and discuss why I don't like it that much. Maybe I don't know the "special details that the old masters that never made world champions..(that me being sarcastic) !!!


Well, you get the idea but it is what it is.

The next generation of instructor in my club could likely influence the club towards the kneeling guard break.. who knows.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

I feel the issue with kneeling passes is they require a level of finesse you only get very far in your BJJ journey. Could I get good at them at some point? Maybe. Do I feel like spending 5 years getting triangled and armbarred like a goofball when I could do something simpler and more efficient straight away (standing up)? Yup. The decision isn't hard to make.

It's not the only issue I have with some stuff on the average white belt curriculum (or "fundamentals"). Inverting and spinning for some techniques? Absolute nonsense, that's fancy and way too advanced. Triangles and armbars from closed guard that will give you a one way ticket to getting-your-ass-stacked-and-passed-town for the next three years at least? Totally fine.

Wut? Why would triangles and arm bars get you a one ticket to getting stacked and passed? Sometimes will sometimes won’t, it depends who are you rolling with and how good are your triangles... spinning around is fancy it requires much more dextrecy mat time concepts and overall understating of what the heck are you doing than triangles and arm bars which are quite simple to do.