Karate blackbelts in MMA

[Jimmy Jazz]

Alvarez is actually a good boxer, definitely not just a puncher. Woodley is a very prolific feinter and is very good at measuring distance. Also not just a puncher.

Yes he does. Walking a guy down does not mean running into his counters. He gets hit clean by everyone who cuts him off and forces him to trade in the pocket. Ellenberger and Woodley both dropped him that way, Rory won the 5th doing it, and Brown got the shit beat out of him but still wrestlefucked Thompson because he fought his way into the clinch. If you're tough and willing to keep pushing forward intelligently, Wonderboy is in trouble against you. He's mostly fought guys who weren't willing to do that consistently, but they all had success in spots. He's only really dangerous if you run straight into a counter, or if you wait on him at his range and let him pick his shots.

Being a good puncher to me doesnt just mean you hit hard. I just wouldnt call a guy who doesnt make use of the jab like Woodley a boxer. Rory won the 5th round? Are you basing that off the judging? fight metric or your own personal opinion. I mostly remember Thompson breaking his nose with a spinning wheel kick and getting top position.

 

[a guy]

Being a good puncher to me doesnt just mean you hit hard. I just wouldnt call a guy who doesnt make use of the jab like Woodley a boxer. Rory won the 5th round? Are you basing that off the judging? fight metric or your own personal opinion. I mostly remember Thompson breaking his nose with a spinning wheel kick and getting top position.

Woodley does jab. Maybe not as much as he should, but he uses it to feint, to set up his offense and to keep guys off him. Alvarez absolutely jabs and there's no way you could call him only a puncher unless you're only basing that on his fight against McGregor. Anyway I don't wanna turn this into a scoring debate, but this is what I'm talking about:



Rory gets hit at first while he's closing distance, but once the exchanging starts it's Thompson who gets hit hard and knocked back. And keep in mind Rory isn't very good at pressuring or trading in the pocket. The guys who are good at those things, even if just in spots, tend to hurt Wonderboy:



Comes in behind his jab carefully enough not to get hurt by the counter, then once he has the distance measured he slips the jab and drops Wonderboy.



Uses his jab to set up a 3-2 that knocks Wonderboy down, walks him down and drops him with another big right hand that he measures with his left.



Even guys without knockout power can use this to punch into the clinch, where they can work takedowns, dirty box, knee, elbow or otherwise control the fight and rough him up--again keeping in mind here that Woodley isn't what I'd call elite in the clinch.

Wonderboy is lucky that so far the only guy he's fought who's been willing to press him like that consistently was Brown. Put him in there against a dos Anjos, Khabib or Ferguson type fighter and he's gonna get beat up like the MMA version of Holzken vs Daniels. Not hating on the guy, I'm somewhat of a fan (whereas I'm not at all a fan of Rory or Woodley), but his stylistic weaknesses aren't just theoretical--they've been demonstrated multiple times by multiple opponents and can also be seen in similar fighters.

 

[Hotora86]

Really? Where I'm from it's pretty much chicken, beef, turkey and pork. I need to try more. What's your favorite of those?
(...)
Amazing. I had it on a burger and it was easily the best burger I've ever had. Savory but a little sweet and very tender. The kind of meat Trump would order well done with ketchup.

Where you from bro? You gotta have game if you have forests in your country.
(...)
"well done with ketchup" is the the most offensive thing you can do to good meat.

 

[Hotora86]

Yeah it is. You can buy its meat but I haven't had the chance to try. You can order it online on a lot of sites, this one for example: http://www.keziefoods.co.uk/Catalogue/Lean-Meats/Exotic-Meats
Check out the last row on that page.

My favourites are definitely horse, kangaroo and ostrich. They're very tender and nice, almost like it melts in your mouth. Make sure you have them rare or medium rare.

Venison and bison are quite good too, but not as good IMO.

Wild boar and elk are "wild tasting" if you like stronger tasting meats, pretty nice too. I've had elk burgers and meat balls in Sweden it was good

Thanks for the link, will try to get me some.
I've had kangaroo but it was quite hard, a bit like beef... maybe it wasn't prepared well enough.
Horse and venison are my favs.

 

[Hotora86]

don't forget the meat of man

That's what she said.

 

[Hotora86]

hesitant MT guys who know their going to get peppered from the outside by counter strikers with better footwork and mobility. Analize how Conor baited Alverez with his superior positioning and movement. I consider Conor a TMA counter striker and Alverez an old school MT based movement guy. The MT doesn't have a consistent answer to moving forward against CS'rs.
That's why I think so many think Thompson v Woodley was such a snooze fest. I on the other hand saw it as a mental battle of whits between 2 guys who knew the other could KO him, trying to pick his openings with extreme care.

Think that explains my logic....

I see what you mean and I have 3 great examples of MT vs counter-striking Karate which show a wrong approach and a correct approach.

1. WRONG APPROACH: Thiago Silva vs Lyoto Machida

Silva kept the pressure on Machida but wasn't very explosive. Instead he just plodded after Lyoto, throwing slow power shots which got him countered badly, knocked down and finally KTFO.

Nothing to add here, horrible strategy, horrible execution, horrible result.

2. ALMOST CORRECT APPROACH: Rua vs Machida 1

Rua was cautious and did not charge in blindly since he knew it wouldn't work against Lyoto. Instead Shogun focused on MT's signature weapon - the low kick. The idea was to damage Machida's legs to take away his key tool - mobility. Of course low kicks still leave you open to counters so the fight turns into a game of timing and speed. Rua landed plenty kicks which slowed Machida down very much in the last two rounds but he also got countered to the head many times - and this probably swayed the judges.

Valid strategy, especially if your kicks are lightning fast and your chin is made of rock. Unlikely to get you a finish tho and since strikes to the head *look* more damaging / impressive you may end up on the wrong side of a close decision.

3. BEST APPROACH: Rua vs Machida 2

Counter the counter! As you can see in the gif below Shogun really studied Machida and must have spent weeks analyzing their first encounter to prepare such a brilliant counter. I am myself a very devout Machida fan but I have to give Rua huge props for his rematch performance.

Obviously this approach requires amazing skill, speed, timing and a very deep analysis of the opponent. After Machida's loss it seemed like "the riddle was solved" and the strategy was now evident. Perhaps it was and many fighters tried it but even top dogs like Couture, Hendo and Mousasi couldn't do the same.

 

[CFGroup]

I see what you mean and I have 3 great examples of MT vs counter-striking Karate which show a wrong approach and a correct approach.

1. WRONG APPROACH: Thiago Silva vs Lyoto Machida

Silva kept the pressure on Machida but wasn't very explosive. Instead he just plodded after Lyoto, throwing slow power shots which got him countered badly, knocked down and finally KTFO.

Nothing to add here, horrible strategy, horrible execution, horrible result.

2. ALMOST CORRECT APPROACH: Rua vs Machida 1

Rua was cautious and did not charge in blindly since he knew it wouldn't work against Lyoto. Instead Shogun focused on MT's signature weapon - the low kick. The idea was to damage Machida's legs to take away his key tool - mobility. Of course low kicks still leave you open to counters so the fight turns into a game of timing and speed. Rua landed plenty kicks which slowed Machida down very much in the last two rounds but he also got countered to the head many times - and this probably swayed the judges.

Valid strategy, especially if your kicks are lightning fast and your chin is made of rock. Unlikely to get you a finish tho and since strikes to the head *look* more damaging / impressive you may end up on the wrong side of a close decision.

3. BEST APPROACH: Rua vs Machida 2

Counter the counter! As you can see in the gif below Shogun really studied Machida and must have spent weeks analyzing their first encounter to prepare such a brilliant counter. I am myself a very devout Machida fan but I have to give Rua huge props for his rematch performance.

Obviously this approach requires amazing skill, speed, timing and a very deep analysis of the opponent. After Machida's loss it seemed like "the riddle was solved" and the strategy was now evident. Perhaps it was and many fighters tried it but even top dogs like Couture, Hendo and Mousasi couldn't do the same.

Bingo!

And that's where counter strikers are vulnerable in your last clip. Anticipating patterns in real time will leave those gaps because you can't react in time for a faint.

I loved Machida's rise but also saw his limited ability and arsenal from a TKD/Kickboxing perspective. In the old what I call Muay Thai standup...I know there was a ton of basic boxing added, but for space I call it MT because of it's lack of mobility, a simple stutter back step like Machida uses is enough to evade the incoming attack while setting up for the counter. The mistake Machida made was not understanding the tactical repetition and building some faints to capitalize off of, like Anderson, Page, Conor, Thompson and others do.

As I was trying to say before, 2 counter strikers hesitant to pull the trigger is going to be totally boring to the low tactical IQ MMA fan because there's little striking and mostly position rotation movement. Counter strikers against hesitant MT will look like that last Page fight or last weekends Woodley vs Thompson. Lots of movement from the counter striker and stagnant stalling by the MT guy waiting for that toe to toe bash fest they're use to and honestly very good at....I'd never want to try to stand 3 feet apart and slug away at each other. To much damage for the reward of landing the ending shot as opposed to snipping away at the edges setting up the perfect kinetic driven drop.

 

[Hotora86]

NEW FIGHTER ADDED !!!

NAME: Cristiana Stancu
COUNTRY: Romania
STYLE: Kempo, Kyokushin
RANK: Black belt (2nd dan)
RECORD: 3-1
WIKI: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cristiana_Stancu

Cristiana "Mongol" Stancu (born July 19, 1991) is a Romanian mixed martial artist, karateka, boxer and kickboxer who competes in SUPERKOMBAT.

 

[Thycidides]

Shogun really isn't a good example of Mauy Thai even for MMA.. To be honest Demetrious Johnson and Valentina Shevchenko are better examples. Authentic Mauy Thai is actually pretty rare to see applied in MMA.

Low kicks are low scoring in Thailand. Its the clinch, knees and mid kick that score more and are most prevalent. Also the best Mauy Thai Fighter today, Saenchai is a counter fighter himself.

 

[Hotora86]

NEW FIGHTER ADDED !!!

NAME: Nobutatsu Suzuki
COUNTRY: Japan
STYLE: Kyokushin
RANK: Black belt
RECORD: 11-2-2
WIKI: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nobutatsu_Suzuki

Nobutatsu Suzuki (born September 16, 1977) is a Japanese professional mixed martial artist currently competing in ONE FC's Welterweight division. He is the former ONE FC Welterweight Champion.

 

[Hotora86]

We've reached an impressive number - 125 Karate fighters on the list!

Time for some nerdy stats!

STYLE %
Kyokushin 26%
Shotokan 14%
unknown 10%
Kenpo 9%
Kempo 8%

Kyokushin as always in the lead with 33 fighters - no surprise here, as knockdown rules are generally easier to adapt to full-contact MMA fighting. Shotokan second with 17, which may be simply a testimony to its worldwide popularity but perhaps after Machida's success more Shotokan karateka have decided to cross over to MMA? Kenpo (American) and Kempo (Japanese) have contributed 11 and 10 fighters respectively. Many fighters on the list are still missing a style - so if you know where the below guys are coming from PLEASE LET ME KNOW!

Cheick Kongo
Cole Escovedo
Ed Ratcliff
Giedrius Karavackas
Karen Darabedyan
Ken Hamamura
Nam Phan
Rogent Lloret
Rose Namajunas
Sam Hoger
Shannon Ritch
Wesley Johnson

 

[CFGroup]

Shogun really isn't a good example of Mauy Thai even for MMA.. To be honest Demetrious Johnson and Valentina Shevchenko are better examples. Authentic Mauy Thai is actually pretty rare to see applied in MMA.

Low kicks are low scoring in Thailand. Its the clinch, knees and mid kick that score more and are most prevalent. Also the best Mauy Thai Fighter today, Saenchai is a counter fighter himself.

LOL, MT at that level is non existent in MMA. Everything about his technique is razor sharp and drilled to oblivion. MMA guys just don't have enough time to focus that finitely on one discipline.

 

[Thycidides]

LOL, MT at that level is non existent in MMA. Everything about his technique is razor sharp and drilled to oblivion. MMA guys just don't have enough time to focus that finitely on one discipline.

Exactly, so it is misleading to treat Rua with his plodding footwork as representative of the form.

I loved Machida's rise but also saw his limited ability and arsenal from a TKD/Kickboxing perspective. In the old what I call Muay Thai standup...I know there was a ton of basic boxing added, but for space I call it MT because of it's lack of mobility,

Lots of movement from the counter striker and stagnant stalling by the MT guy waiting for that toe to toe bash fest they're use to and honestly very good at....QUOTE]

Most high level Mauy Thai fighters don't fight like this at all.

 

[a guy]

LOL, MT at that level is non existent in MMA. Everything about his technique is razor sharp and drilled to oblivion. MMA guys just don't have enough time to focus that finitely on one discipline.

Yet there are plenty of grapplers at that level.

 

[CFGroup]

Exactly, so it is misleading to treat Rua with his plodding footwork as representative of the form.

Don't get me wrong, I still see how limited MT footwork is when compared to other styles at the top level, Shogun just is a terrible example of that phylosophy at the MMA level. He's good enough to capitalize on the less prepared fighters he faces. Last weekend being a painful to watch example. Christ how many jab with no head movement counters can you eat before you throw it as a faint and throw a cross into the opening?

The point of MT is to maneuver in CQ and deliver more damage than sustained. That by definition is going to put footwork mobility farther down the list. The styles that stand 1 or 2 steps out of contact range are by definition need footwork mobility to close the gap to connect.

That's all I'm saying. Obviously if you get caught in a bash fest MT is going to kick ass, but if you have the space and don't get cornered snipping at distance is going to setup kinetic driven KO opportunities while avoiding damage.

 

[a guy]

Don't get me wrong, I still see how limited MT footwork is when compared to other styles at the top level, Shogun just is a terrible example of that phylosophy at the MMA level. He's good enough to capitalize on the less prepared fighters he faces. Last weekend being a painful to watch example. Christ how many jab with no head movement counters can you eat before you throw it as a faint and throw a cross into the opening?

The point of MT is to maneuver in CQ and deliver more damage than sustained. That by definition is going to put footwork mobility farther down the list. The styles that stand 1 or 2 steps out of contact range are by definition need footwork mobility to close the gap to connect.

That's all I'm saying. Obviously if you get caught in a bash fest MT is going to kick ass, but if you have the space and don't get cornered snipping at distance is going to setup kinetic driven KO opportunities while avoiding damage.

Kinetic driven KO opportunities? That's what every art is after. You're really biased against what you perceive as Muay Thai in mma, but the style you're advocating so heavily for only works with a lot of space--and those fighters always end up getting hurt bad when they fight someone who knows how to take away their space.

 

[Thycidides]

That's all I'm saying. Obviously if you get caught in a bash fest MT is going to kick ass, but if you have the space and don't get cornered snipping at distance is going to setup kinetic driven KO opportunities while avoiding damage.

Ok it is pretty clear you don't watch a lot of Mauy Thai. In actual Mauy Thai competition Kicking exchanges at mid range are way more common than two guys trying for a knockout with punches.

 

[CFGroup]

Kinetic driven KO opportunities? That's what every art is after. You're really biased against what you perceive as Muay Thai in mma, but the style you're advocating so heavily for only works with a lot of space--and those fighters always end up getting hurt bad when they fight someone who knows how to take away their space.

Not always...Jeez, it's not like I don't have respect for CQ tactics I just don't prefer it.

It's just the facts of physics that you can deliver more power winding up from distance, don't shoot the messenger.

I guess if I was going all out I'd shin harden against wood, but I've seen the results of that after 40 and it ain't pretty!

 

[CFGroup]

Ok it is pretty clear you don't watch a lot of Mauy Thai. In actual Mauy Thai competition Kicking exchanges at mid range are way more common than two guys trying for a knockout with punches.

Better post some examples of long stretches of MT snipping at distance two steps to throw for contact....

More than one step to throw for contact, which is what you call "mid range"....

Tic toc....

 

[a guy]

Not always...Jeez, it's not like I don't have respect for CQ tactics I just don't prefer it.

It's just the facts of physics that you can deliver more power winding up from distance, don't shoot the messenger.

I guess if I was going all out I'd shin harden against wood, but I've seen the results of that after 40 and it ain't pretty!

Achieve more power, but be easier to see and more vulnerable to counters--plus out of luck when you don't have that distance to work with. It's ok to have a style preference, but you talk like it's the superior style when that's far from the truth. It has well established weaknesses and limitations. You can argue MT footwork is limited, I can make the same argument for the style you're arguing for. Look what happened to Machida vs Shogun, Jones, Weidman, Romero and others, what happened to Wonderboy vs Brown and Woodley (even Ellenberger and Rory in the gifs I posted previously), Nelson vs Story and Maia, there are plenty of historical examples of that kind of footwork being neutralized. It has it's uses. It can be very effective. It can also be shut down like anything else.