Karate blackbelts in MMA

CFGroup said:
Better post some examples of long stretches of MT snipping at distance two steps to throw for contact....

More than one step to throw for contact, which is what you call "mid range"....

Tic toc....
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Some nice kick exchanges in these videos.



Here's Valentina Shevchenko fighting on the outside vs Holly Holm. In fact the MT striker beats up the more karate fighter using distance.

 
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Thycidides said:
Some nice kick exchanges in these videos.



Here's Valentina Shevchenko fighting on the outside vs Holly Holm. In fact the MT striker beats up the more karate fighter using distance.

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Shevchenko did savate.boxing, and tkd aswell as muay thai.
 
Thycidides said:
Some nice kick exchanges in these videos.


Dude, I get those r awesome exchanges and examples of how MT is killer no question.

Do U see how they can make contact with a rear leg roundhouse?

That's what I'm talking about close quarters.

If you have to step in and then throw from the rear leg to make contact I always saw that as mid distance.

2 steps like a shuffle step same side forward and then a full step changing sides and building momentum and then attack long distance....It makes it so you have time to react defensively which is why I prefer those distances.

No question that MT is killer but still nothing like TKD or Kempo covers distance...
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Jimmy H said:
Shevchenko did savate.boxing, and tkd aswell as muay thai.
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Not just did, she is a 2nd dan blackbelt in TDK.

http://www.ufc.com/fighter/Valentina-Shevchenko

When and why did you start training for fighting?
I started training Taekwondo when I was five years old because it’s a family tradition. My mother is the sportswoman of the family - she is a 3rd dan black belt in taekwondo. I have been training multiple disciplines since the early beginnings of my journey as a martial artist. My coach Pavel Fedotov has taught all his students mixed martial arts (what he called Universal Martial Arts) long before they were popular like today. Every time we trained, we practiced sambo, judo, wrestling, boxing, and taekwondo. Every week we competed in different styles and sometimes at two different events with different styles on the same day. I have been training mixed martial arts (MMA) since the beginning, and I started competing in MMA professionally in 2003.

TL/DR: Valentina trained a mix of styles from the very beginning of her career.
 
Thycidides said:
Shogun really isn't a good example of Mauy Thai even for MMA.. To be honest Demetrious Johnson and Valentina Shevchenko are better examples. Authentic Mauy Thai is actually pretty rare to see applied in MMA.

Low kicks are low scoring in Thailand. Its the clinch, knees and mid kick that score more and are most prevalent. Also the best Mauy Thai Fighter today, Saenchai is a counter fighter himself.
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I agree with your post, however if you're gonna insert a Saenchai highlight video at least put a good one :)

 
Tayski said:
I agree with your post, however if you're gonna insert a Saenchai highlight video at least put a good one :)

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Either way it's not quite fair to compare to THE BEST in the world in a given martial art when looking at MMA fighters who need to cross-train a lot.

Lyoto Machida is great but certainly not THE BEST Shotokan Karateka in the world, or even in Brazil, or even in his family. You could say that Chinzo is world class since he took silver in the Funakoshi cup - and in terms of standup he pretty much crushes his opponents. His only two losses are to grapplers since he never had proper BJJ training. Oh, and he's 40.
 
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Hotora86 said:
Either way it's not quite fair to compare to THE BEST in the world in a given martial art when looking at MMA fighters who need to cross-train a lot.

Lyoto Machida is great but certainly not THE BEST Shotokan Karateka in the world, or even in Brazil, or even in his family. You could say that Chinzo is world class since he took silver in the Funakoshi cup - and in terms of standup he pretty much crushes his opponents. His only two losses are to grapplers since he never had proper BJJ training. Oh, and he's 40.
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We're not comparing the best of the world in a specific art with the best of that art within MMA. We're saying the examples given to represent that specific art are not even people from that art in the first place. There's literally been posts in this thread about Tyrone Woodley and Eddie Alvarez having a Muay Thai style, come on...

Lyoto Machida might not be the best Shotokan Karateka in the world but at least he definitely has that background and competed in it seriously for many years. He has that style and you can clearly recognise it when he fights. Whenever you ask people from Shotokan Karate to name some great Shotokan Karateka in MMA you can be sure that Lyoto Machida will be in their list as he's one of the most accomplished Shotokan Karateka in MMA if not the most accomplished.

Shogun on the other hand is not that for MT. The points @Thycidides was making were: 1. Shogun isn't the best representation of MT in MMA and there are better examples, 2. Authentic MT is quite rare to see applied in MMA, 3. Counter fighting, distancing, movement and footwork are present in MT (unlike what a previous poster was saying) and he gave an example to prove his point with Saenchai who's regarded as one of the GOATs of MT. You can clearly see in his highlight videos and actual fights how he uses distancing, movement and footwork. If the one considered one the greatest in MT isn't a good representation of the style, then I wonder who is.

All his points were valid IMO.
 
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Tayski said:
We're not comparing the best of the world in a specific art with the best of that art within MMA. We're saying the examples given to represent that specific art are not even people from that art in the first place. There's literally been posts in this thread about Tyrone Woodley and Eddie Alvarez having a Muay Thai style, come on...

Lyoto Machida might not be the best Shotokan Karateka in the world but at least he definitely has that background and competed in it seriously for many years. He has that style and you can clearly recognise it when he fights. Whenever you ask people from Shotokan Karate to name some great Shotokan Karateka in MMA you can be sure that Lyoto Machida will be in their list as he's one of the most accomplished Shotokan Karateka in MMA if not the most accomplished.

Shogun on the other hand is not that for MT. The points @Thycidides was making were: 1. Shogun isn't the best representation of MT in MMA and there are better examples, 2. Authentic MT is quite rare to see applied in MMA, 3. Counter fighting, distancing, movement and footwork are present in MT (unlike what a previous poster was saying) and he gave an example to prove his point with Saenchai who's regarded as one of the GOATs of MT. You can clearly see in his highlight videos and actual fights how he uses distancing, movement and footwork. If the one considered one the greatest in MT isn't a good representation of the style, then I wonder who is.

All his points were valid IMO.
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Fair enough.
 
Just to add to the conversation, the other thing also that CFGroup fails to recognize when he says "I call it MT because of it's lack of mobility" and "stagnant stalling by the MT guy waiting for that toe to toe bash fest they're use to and honestly very good at...." is that in traditional Muay Thai like you see in the stadiums, standing your ground and pushing the action (aggressiveness) is highly regarded in terms of scoring, hence why you might see 2 guys standing in front of each other banging back and forth. When Muay Thai fighters fight under different rule sets or scoring systems they tend to use a lot more footwork and movement. Here's another example I was watching earlier, Sagat Petchyindee (MT fighter) vs. Peter Cunningham who was undefeated in Kickboxing:



You can see Sagat using distancing and movement, and not just trying to stand and bang.
 
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What's funny is that a lot of MT fights are slow paced , with the first round being used by the fighters to gauge their opponent. A lot of time is spent in the clinch, which can look like stalling. Close quarters in Mauy Thai is the clinch, something most MMA fighters known as strikers don't use very well.

Despite what Joe Rogan says low kicks are not a big part of Mauy Thai strategy either, its just that years ago when fighters from Thailand fought people from USA and Europe they exploited the lack of awareness to that attack. It is the mid kick that scores more and is more important.
 
Tayski said:
Just to add to the conversation, the other thing also that CFGroup fails to recognize when he says "I call it MT because of it's lack of mobility" and "stagnant stalling by the MT guy waiting for that toe to toe bash fest they're use to and honestly very good at...." is that in traditional Muay Thai like you see in the stadiums, standing your ground and pushing the action (aggressiveness) is highly regarded in terms of scoring, hence why you might see 2 guys standing in front of each other banging back and forth. When Muay Thai fighters fight under different rule sets or scoring systems they tend to use a lot more footwork and movement. Here's another example I was watching earlier, Sagat Petchyindee (MT fighter) vs. Peter Cunningham who was undefeated in Kickboxing:



You can see Sagat using distancing and movement, and not just trying to stand and bang.
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Not going to rise to the bait cause I can scroll back and see how much you like to argue...

Unwittingly you posted a perfect example of what my overall point is, so thank you!

Great clip of how distance fighters need to compensate for "Toe to toe bashfest MT" God people get their panties in a bunch from that phrase, LOL!

As I said it was humbling to KB with MT based guys back in the day because they r use to absorbing tons of damage on the expectation they will inflict more where my training was to inflict damage and try to avoid it...

I filled my gaps by incorporating months of leg kick training and most importantly absorbing the tactic subconsciously as a default. After slowing down pressure fighters ether with damage or faints to their legs it's easier to snipe from distance, but you have to slow them down first and with TKD background, training heavily in leg kicking becomes just as fluid as going high.

I will almost say to the letter in MMA go to the legs if the other fighter has heavy hands. 2 McGregor v Diaz is a recent example. I'd even say for Thompson v Woodley, Thompson could be cracking away at Woodley's legs, to negate that power rush he's famous for. Pettis could have perfected the same tactic as well. There are countless examples I could post of that tactic. People just forget or have coaches who want to impose their wills instead of recognizing the advantages of the other fighter and executing a camp that work around them.

Holy crap, I'm going to repeat this again, I prefer snipping from distance and inflicting damage while avoiding it. If guys want to go toe to toe than I'm going to slow them down as aggressively as I can and attack their legs to slow them down and then to return to my comfort zone of using distance footwork.

Shit I got sucked in, LOL!

But I'm not going to argue cause this is a thread on Karate BB's in MMA.

Peace!
 
CFGroup said:
Not going to rise to the bait cause I can scroll back and see how much you like to argue...

Unwittingly you posted a perfect example of what my overall point is, so thank you!

Great clip of how distance fighters need to compensate for "Toe to toe bashfest MT" God people get their panties in a bunch from that phrase, LOL!

As I said it was humbling to KB with MT based guys back in the day because they r use to absorbing tons of damage on the expectation they will inflict more where my training was to inflict damage and try to avoid it...

I filled my gaps by incorporating months of leg kick training and most importantly absorbing the tactic subconsciously as a default. After slowing down pressure fighters ether with damage or faints to their legs it's easier to snipe from distance, but you have to slow them down first and with TKD background, training heavily in leg kicking becomes just as fluid as going high.

I will almost say to the letter in MMA go to the legs if the other fighter has heavy hands. 2 McGregor v Diaz is a recent example. I'd even say for Thompson v Woodley, Thompson could be cracking away at Woodley's legs, to negate that power rush he's famous for. Pettis could have perfected the same tactic as well. There are countless examples I could post of that tactic. People just forget or have coaches who want to impose their wills instead of recognizing the advantages of the other fighter and executing a camp that work around them.

Holy crap, I'm going to repeat this again, I prefer snipping from distance and inflicting damage while avoiding it. If guys want to go toe to toe than I'm going to slow them down as aggressively as I can and attack their legs to slow them down and then to return to my comfort zone of using distance footwork.

Shit I got sucked in, LOL!

But I'm not going to argue cause this is a thread on Karate BB's in MMA.

Peace!
Click to expand...

Thompson did try to go to the legs against Woodley. Didn't turn out so well:

 
Not taking sides, just doing my own little research into the subject - found this video, very interesting:



SPOILER:
He lost the belt to Yoshitaka Naito in Bangkok.
 
Yeah the Thai fighters that fight for One FC are way better examples of Mauy Thai than Shogun or Woodly. They tend to be aggressive punchers and also old for a Thai fighter.

A counter fighter like Shevchenko is going to be in the minority of MT stylists that come over to the cage and people will say her style is more boxing or TKD than MT. Nevermind it is very common for Mauy Thai fighters to also train boxing already as the compete in both rules sets.

Kind of like how people would say Machida cross trained May Thai to learn how to kick someone.
 
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CFGroup said:
Not going to rise to the bait cause I can scroll back and see how much you like to argue...

Unwittingly you posted a perfect example of what my overall point is, so thank you!

Great clip of how distance fighters need to compensate for "Toe to toe bashfest MT" God people get their panties in a bunch from that phrase, LOL!

As I said it was humbling to KB with MT based guys back in the day because they r use to absorbing tons of damage on the expectation they will inflict more where my training was to inflict damage and try to avoid it...

I filled my gaps by incorporating months of leg kick training and most importantly absorbing the tactic subconsciously as a default. After slowing down pressure fighters ether with damage or faints to their legs it's easier to snipe from distance, but you have to slow them down first and with TKD background, training heavily in leg kicking becomes just as fluid as going high.

I will almost say to the letter in MMA go to the legs if the other fighter has heavy hands. 2 McGregor v Diaz is a recent example. I'd even say for Thompson v Woodley, Thompson could be cracking away at Woodley's legs, to negate that power rush he's famous for. Pettis could have perfected the same tactic as well. There are countless examples I could post of that tactic. People just forget or have coaches who want to impose their wills instead of recognizing the advantages of the other fighter and executing a camp that work around them.

Holy crap, I'm going to repeat this again, I prefer snipping from distance and inflicting damage while avoiding it. If guys want to go toe to toe than I'm going to slow them down as aggressively as I can and attack their legs to slow them down and then to return to my comfort zone of using distance footwork.

Shit I got sucked in, LOL!

But I'm not going to argue cause this is a thread on Karate BB's in MMA.

Peace!
Click to expand...

"not going to raise to the bait" and "not going to argue cause..." but still writes an essay. lol

We're not baiting you, just correcting your non sense. You're the one who call Woodley and Alvarez MT style fighters and saying there's a "lack of mobility" and "stagnant stalling" from MT fighters. We're showing you that it's not the case, that's all.

MT is not the only martial art where fighters sometimes take some damage to deliver more damage, just look at Kyokushin Karate for example.

The example in the video I inserted was to display movement from a MT fighter beating a Kickboxer at his own game. I don't see how that proves your point. It's actually the Kickboxer who's getting smashed from the outside and leg kicked, while the MT fighter is dodging most of the kicks not absorbing them, it's the opposite of what you're saying.

Also, being able to take some shots doesn't mean you're an immobile robot who wants a "toe to toe bashfest".
 
a guy said:
Thompson did try to go to the legs against Woodley. Didn't turn out so well:

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Tayski said:
"not going to raise to the bait" and "not going to argue cause..." but still writes an essay. lol

We're not baiting you, just correcting your non sense. You're the one who call Woodley and Alvarez MT style fighters and saying there's a "lack of mobility" and "stagnant stalling" from MT fighters. We're showing you that it's not the case, that's all.

MT is not the only martial art where fighters sometimes take some damage to deliver more damage, just look at Kyokushin Karate for example.

The example in the video I inserted was to display movement from a MT fighter beating a Kickboxer at his own game. I don't see how that proves your point. It's actually the Kickboxer who's getting smashed from the outside and leg kicked, while the MT fighter is dodging most of the kicks not absorbing them, it's the opposite of what you're saying.

Also, being able to take some shots doesn't mean you're an immobile robot who wants a "toe to toe bashfest".
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LOL...

Boing 737A's are one of the safest planes ever engineered...

Tic Toc...

5...4...3...2...1...

Now you guys argue the opposite and post a gif of a 737 crash, LOL!
 
CFGroup said:
LOL...

Boing 737A's are one of the safest planes ever engineered...

Tic Toc...

5...4...3...2...1...

Now you guys argue the opposite and post a gif of a 737 crash, LOL!
Click to expand...

Man...do you have any idea how often that counter happens in MMA? It's the easiest way to end up on top in the sport. Thompson nearly got finished doing what you suggested against Woodley. You can't hand wave that way away. GSP hit tons of his takedowns like that, Rory stops everyone from low kicking him that way, Silva famously knocked out Irvin, Edgar hits knee taps that way, the list goes on. Can it work? Sure. But the risks are a lot greater than you imply.
 
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a guy said:
Man...do you have any idea how often that counter happens in MMA? It's the easiest way to end up on top in the sport. Thompson nearly got finished doing what you suggested against Woodley. You can't hand wave that way away. GSP hit tons of his takedowns like that, Rory stops everyone from low kicking him that way, Silva famously knocked out Irvin, Edgar hits knee taps that way, the list goes on. Can it work? Sure. But the risks are a lot greater than you imply.
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Tayski said:
The safest plane model is actually the Airbus A340:

http://www.airsafe.com/events/models/rate_mod.htm

http://www.fearofflying.com/resources/safest-airliners-and-airline-safety.shtml
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U boys need live!

wow...!

Go out get some air.

Go on a date!

Hold a girls hand.

It's like the argument Shirdog hyenas....

They say Greyhounds aren't the fastest dog....

5...4...3...2...1!

LOL!
 
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