Jacare should have won that fight vs Gastellum.

[TStoner]

It’s very close. Can’t argue much either way, but I agreed with the decision. Kelvin lost the first round. No doubt. But he dropped Jacare in the second so he definitely won that round in my mind. The third, while very close, had equal exchanges in the striking with Kelvin taking the scrambles and grappling - which should be Jacares strength - which gave him the third in my mind. I ain’t mad, and nobody should be, but I can see why others disagree

 

[rjmbrd]

Your point was that old guys are at the top because we don’t get younger talent. Well how did we get the old guys at the top? The incentive is better now than ever.

That may be what you interpreted, but it certainly was not my point. What I was underlining is that Jacare is more skilled than Kelvin - consider how they both fought when equally fresh, but that Jacare is well past his athletic prime and can no longer keep up or take big hits. Kelvin, for his part, is still athletically in great shape and clearly more durable.

The hw all american has to start training a new sport to be successful in mma. Any “athlete” has to learn a new sport. Just like it would be pretty hard to start playing any sport, it’s not so easy to just start to play mma. Some take that journey. It will never be an easy one or a sure one.

Brock Lesnar and Cole Konrad both were NCAA division I champions, and both famously attempted to enter the NFL, with the Vikings and Jets respectively, before falling back to MMA as a backup consideration. They both became MMA champions.

The risk -vs- reward is so bad in MMA that we are failing to attract suitable young athletes with the requisite background for success. Elite athletes the size of 185/205/265 do not consider MMA as their first (or sometimes second, third) option.

That is why we are shuffling around the old farts of yesteryear in those divisions.

The starting pay at the absolute highest level of the sports is 12k to get your head punched in. Good luck convincing a young man over 6' and 200+ lbs with elite speed and athletic qualities to take a single glance at MMA.

 

[rjmbrd]

If what you were saying were true, then why would anyone play football? The NFL doesn't guarantee contracts and the average career length is 3 years. Sure we hear about the stars making a lot, but John Doe who makes $500K for a year or two then gets cut, is SOL. $1 million is garbage money for the rest of your life not to mention the head trauma that comes with it.

I think MMA has plenty of elite athletes. It's just American like to think only basketball and football players are athletes, wonder why.....

Making a million dollars in 3 years of the NFL would be top 1% of all UFC athletes in the history of the organization.

MMA has elite athletes in the lower weight classes, where we see average age make sense for an athletic endeavor. 38-45 year old guys populating the upper divisions are not, by ANY reasonable standard 'elite athletes' at that point in their lives.

The starting pay is 12k to get your head punched in. As a thought experiment, lets say it was now 250k/year, if you were 205/265. Do you think this would have a wild influx of young athletes?

It would literally change the sport over night. When one guy with legitimately elite genetics trips and falls into MMA, we call him the greatest of all time. The NFL is literally populates with Jon Jones, he's not the exception he's the rule there.

 

[daltonames]

Yeah I understand that. But at the same time, bad judging decisions are an unsatisfying conclusion to a fight and bad for the sport as well.

I think we'd all be happy with seeing a Jacare/Kelvin rematch. Rather than judges determining the fate of both of their careers cause they were forced to chose a winner of a 3rd round that was clearly even.

I understand your point, but it wasn't an unsatisfying conclusion for me personally, I thought Kelvin did more damage and was advancing and walking down Jacare the whole time from round 2 on, just eating Jacare's shots like they were nothing. I wouldn't have put up a fuss if Jacare got the decision. i personally don't need to see a rematch anytime soon. but that's just me.

 

[Lint]

I understand your point, but it wasn't an unsatisfying conclusion for me personally, I thought Kelvin did more damage and was advancing and walking down Jacare the whole time from round 2 on, just eating Jacare's shots like they were nothing. I wouldn't have put up a fuss if Jacare got the decision. i personally don't need to see a rematch anytime soon. but that's just me.

Kelvin was moving towards Jacare the whole time.
That doesn't mean he was delivering, that's a complete different thing.

Walking towards a guy that is beating your chin at will just because you can endure it doesn't earn you any points, right? It was impressive that Kelvin kept moving towards after being tagged by right hands time and again, but that doesn't mean he should win. Offense/striking matters, your resilience is just good for you.

 

[kflo]

Making a million dollars in 3 years of the NFL would be top 1% of all UFC athletes in the history of the organization.

MMA has elite athletes in the lower weight classes, where we see average age make sense for an athletic endeavor. 38-45 year old guys populating the upper divisions are not, by ANY reasonable standard 'elite athletes' at that point in their lives.

The starting pay is 12k to get your head punched in. As a thought experiment, lets say it was now 250k/year, if you were 205/265. Do you think this would have a wild influx of young athletes?

It would literally change the sport over night. When one guy with legitimately elite genetics trips and falls into MMA, we call him the greatest of all time. The NFL is literally populates with Jon Jones, he's not the exception he's the rule there.

Your perspective is all fucked up. You can make 12k in the minors (prelims is minors) after only a few years practicing a sport. Name another sport with similar opportunities. Not sure why your benchmark is the nfl. Often the primary differentiator is size and the reason they don’t go to mma if they are talented but not 350 lbs is because it’s hard work, not because the pay after only a few years training isnt that high.

 

[kflo]

And you didn’t explain how they used to get talent but now they can’t.

 

[2004 account]

Anyone perpetrating that “don’t leave it to the judges” line really doesn’t want a fair sport and that’s pretty sad.

 

[FimbulFightPicks]

Watch that fight again, and have a word with yourself.

If damage is considered the criteria for a win, there is no possible way Gastellum wins. If coming close to finishing the fight is the criteria being used, the judges should have given it a draw.

Kelvin was mounted twice in the first round and was defending armbars for the last minute. While Gastellum's knockdown of Jacare in the second round got him all about 1 minute of influence.

Kelvin won round 2 and 3. Jacare won round 1. He nearly finished him, but he didn´t. I´m not much for giving points for someone nearly doing something, thats not the same. He didn´t get the job done. Jacare was not good enough and he couldnt finnish him. Getting points for nearly finishing someone sounds really odd doesn´t it? Like giving points for nearly scoring a goal in football. ¨

Ever since the Anderson Silva, Bisping and the Hendo and Bisping fight, its clear as water that damage doesn´t mean much, despite the claims that they now take it into account. You can be an opened can of tomatoes and still nothing. Bisping poked hendo the entire fight and people said he "dominated" him, which was insane to say of course. But thats how it goes. Based off this kelvin got a few more strikes in, and there´s that. Jacare was also badly fatiguing and if it had been a 5 rounder, he might not had been able to get up from his chair.

Jacare was sliding around already in round 2, could barely stand most of the time. Kelvi should had pushed the pace more as he was way fresher, but props to Jacare for finding a bit of a second wind.

 

[Mike]

Jacare should have taken the 3rd. He was teeing off on Kelvin but his Homer Simpson chin saw him through. Much like how Diego used to win fights. Swing at air while running forward and eating haymakers from your confused opponent.

 

[Mike]

Anyone perpetrating that “don’t leave it to the judges” line really doesn’t want a fair sport and that’s pretty sad.

Seriously. As fans we shouldn't accept permanently bad judging. It's ridiculous..

 

[Mike]

If what you were saying were true, then why would anyone play football? The NFL doesn't guarantee contracts and the average career length is 3 years. Sure we hear about the stars making a lot, but John Doe who makes $500K for a year or two then gets cut, is SOL. $1 million is garbage money for the rest of your life not to mention the head trauma that comes with it.

I think MMA has plenty of elite athletes. It's just American like to think only basketball and football players are athletes, wonder why.....

Right you make a million as a benchwarmer there. Now compare that to mma where you have to be elite to touch a mil, or a middle of the pack guy that hangs around WAY too long.

 

[VVarhead]

That's the problem with this scoring system. If round 3 was a toss-up like you say (and it definitely was), then it should be scored 10-10. You shouldn't have to arbitrarily pick a winner. 10-9 Jacare round 1, 10-9 Kelvin round 2, 10-10 round 3. 29-29, fight should be a draw.

That's actually a problem with the judges, not the system itself.
A 10-10 round is a perfectly valid score, but judges refuse to give 10-10s, somehow.

 

[rjmbrd]

Your perspective is all fucked up. You can make 12k in the minors (prelims is minors) after only a few years practicing a sport. Name another sport with similar opportunities. Not sure why your benchmark is the nfl. Often the primary differentiator is size and the reason they don’t go to mma if they are talented but not 350 lbs is because it’s hard work, not because the pay after only a few years training isnt that high.

Calling fighting for the UFC 'the minros' is intellectually dishonest. There is not a sports organization in the world that can sell for $4,000,000,000 that is considered a minor league. This is literally, too stupid to discuss further.

Minor league MMA exists in the form of local, regional and lesser national orgs.

Regarding 185/205/265: the lack of signed fighters, high average age and demonstrably low skill and athleticism is a sourcing problem. There are plenty of other suitably sized high caliber athletes in other sports, including the minors of each, but we can't find them in MMA.

As a thought experiment, ask yourself a question, and answer honestly - if the starting pay for a heavyweight signed to the UFC went from 12k to get your head punched in, to 500k guaranteed, would more men signup to try?

Would a larger talent pool interested in heavyweight MMA produce a deeper division? Of course.

 

[daltonames]

Kelvin was moving towards Jacare the whole time.
That doesn't mean he was delivering, that's a complete different thing.

Walking towards a guy that is beating your chin at will just because you can endure it doesn't earn you any points, right? It was impressive that Kelvin kept moving towards after being tagged by right hands time and again, but that doesn't mean he should win. Offense/striking matters, your resilience is just good for you.

Kelvin was walking forward, absorbing Jacare's shots and landing shots of his own, and his shots were definitely doing more damage to Jacare than Jacare's shots were doing to him. In my estimation, that wins him the fight.
I'm not sure your point here. he was moving forward, and he was delivering. Jacare got knocked down, wobbled and was more of a mess at the end of that fight than i've ever seen him in the UFC.

 

[george14]

Then there's you incorrect assertion that playing football for "a year or two" results in "head trauma". CTE typically is seen in players that play for a long ass time. A year or 3 playing pro isn't going to result in CTE in most players (some sure, but the bigger issue is the players that are long term pros and all the players that suffered concussions prior to turning pro).

Professional athletes (outside of mma) make great money:
NBA = $6.2M (x 4.8 year average career length = $30M)
MLB = $4.4M (x 5.6 = $24.64M)
NHL = $2.9M (x 5.5 = $16M)
NFL = $2.1M (x 3.5 = $7.35M)

So what person would turn down the opportunity for free college and then the chance to earn $7-30M by their mid to late 20's? On the other hand you have mma where there are no collegiate scholarships, very little pay for all but a handful of fighters, and one of, if not THE, highest risk of injury. As an example take someone that wins TUF. They fight 3-4 times on the show with little to no pay, then they fight and win the finale to get a contract that potentially (not guaranteed) pays them a total of $100k for 6 fights over 2 years. If your choices are free college and $7M over 3.5 years, or no college and earning only $200k over 4 years, the choice is stupidly simple.

Well that is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard and blatantly false. Aaron Hernandez played 3 years in the NFL and they said he has the worst case of CTE in the history of planet Earth. The had never seen a case this bad. So what you are saying is ridiculous. There are plenty of guys who have retired because they've had so many concussions. There was a Linebacker for the 49ers who just retired too after playing 1 season because he had 10+ concussions.

I'm looking at Mickey Gall's earnings for 2016, he is a young guy. By my estimation he earned $90K strictly for fighting and that's only 3 fights. That doesn't include Reebok money to my knowledge, nor does it include sponsorships these guys have. I'm assuming after all the BS he is probably earning $150K a year and the guy has been in the UFC for hardly a year.

It has been proven time and time again that football is more dangerous than MMA. Like I said, the guys in MMA have a longer career. I'm not saying which is smarter, I'm saying the NFL does not always have the best athletes. That is a perpetuated myth.

 

[george14]

Making a million dollars in 3 years of the NFL would be top 1% of all UFC athletes in the history of the organization.

MMA has elite athletes in the lower weight classes, where we see average age make sense for an athletic endeavor. 38-45 year old guys populating the upper divisions are not, by ANY reasonable standard 'elite athletes' at that point in their lives.

The starting pay is 12k to get your head punched in. As a thought experiment, lets say it was now 250k/year, if you were 205/265. Do you think this would have a wild influx of young athletes?

It would literally change the sport over night. When one guy with legitimately elite genetics trips and falls into MMA, we call him the greatest of all time. The NFL is literally populates with Jon Jones, he's not the exception he's the rule there.

You and I can just agree to disagree. Athleticism is a word that has different meaning to different people. You saying "the NFL is filled with Jon Jones" is your opinion and likely hyperbole. Jones admitted he wasn't good at football. Now does that mean he wasn't athletic enough? No. I guess Michael Westbrook and Johnnie Morton weren't athletic enough for MMA. Athleticism is not some universal term where no matter what, a guy can excel.

Do you think LeBron James would be a good hockey player? As someone who played for a long time I can tell you no. His size makes it impossible to have lateral quickness on the ice and he has a very high center of gravity so he would be getting cut down constantly. There are very few guys in the NHL 6'8". It's just an example of how not everyone who is a good athlete can translate to another sport.

The fact that dad bod Josh Barnett could pin any NFL player down, put his nuts in their face, and there is not a single thing they could do to stop him could be my definition of athleticism. He is literally imposing his strength, skill, stamina, speed on them all. But just because it's not yours doesn't mean the NFL is the Holy Grail of athletes. It's a subjective term.

 

[Sunken]

Coin Flip

 

[Street Fighter 2]

Gastellum's chin held up well, but other than that he was getting pinged every minute of fight, except for the brief moment Jacare got knocked down.

Heck, Jacare landed 3-4 huge left hooks, at the end of the second round. Someone like Bisping, Rockhold would have dieded if they were at the end of those.

The third round was very close, but again Jacare had the better shots, got a couple of short take downs as well.

The first round should have been 10-8, if it was under the new rules. Second round was all Jacare until and even after the knockdown. Kelvin had like a couple minutes of good attack in the whole fight.

I think the image of Jacare slipping and sliding out of gassing out swayed the judges.

PS: I thought Kelvin's stand up was really good before - but I think he relies more on his chin than his boxing, someone like Stephen Thompson would destroy him, if he were to go down to WW. Whittaker also is far quicker than Gastellum, and will have a field day.

Jacare gassed after 1 round because he ain't bout that life. Let that sink in

 

[Flokk]

Heavyweight has the oldest average age of all divisions. That is a metric you don't want in athletics. We're shuffling around 40 year olds because the sport is having trouble attracting young, high caliber athletes.

The overall quality - and literal depth by numbers - at 150/170 is cartoonishly better than the upper weight divisions. That isn't just personified because of the size of humans, the NFL, NBA, MLB are not populated with average sized humans. Money is what attracts the appropriately sized elite athletes.

If the starting pay to get your head punched in at the highest level of MMA went up from 12k, you would see young, elite athletes enter the sport virtually overnight. Right now the risk -vs- reward is so terrible you just don't see it.

We crown EIGHT new All-American Division I heavyweight wrestlers each year. Where are they? You would be shocked at how many are teaching high school gym for 45k/year plus benefits. Thats how bad the risk -vs- reward is in the UFC right now.

The UFC shat the bed with HW. It just stopped caring outside of Randy and Bork. All the middling talent hit the bricks while the rest just kept aging. Putting up even a little effort to promote Stipe-Ngannou is the most the UFC has done lately.

It's also hard to find skilled big guys just because there are fewer big guys. But yah, it's fucked. Nobody with two brain cells to rub together is enticed by fucking Reebok money.

The UFC's own model is what keeps it fringe and chills real talent. HW is just the most obvious example. But if you poke into any division you'll see the same shit.