Islamic State/Iraq Thread v4: The Caliphate is somewhere in Canada

[Orgasmo]

Turkey calls for Ground Invasion (Plus footage of shit blowing up)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/islamic-state/11146053/Turkey-calls-for-ground-invasion-of-Kobane-to-stop-Isil.html




There were massive protests being held in turkey over night. Shit got kind of crazy. Fires were burned, and the police were forced to break it up and enact a curfew. Perhaps that helped Turkey realize that they're being douche bags.

One reporter on the border tweeted earlier;

All Turkey is doing is paying lip service, nothing more. They claim to be blocking weapons and fighters from reaching Kobane, but they're actually preventing Kurdish reinforcements from helping the town.

 

[Zankou]

Kurds rioting in Ankara, as well they should.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/oct/07/isis-kurds-syria-kobani-turkey#comments

 

[Orgasmo]

Kurds rioting in Ankara, as well they should.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/oct/07/isis-kurds-syria-kobani-turkey#comments

Turkey won't intervene unless US explicitly promises to get rid of Assad. This coalition against ISIS is nothing more than a clown show of competing interests, and the piecemeal air strikes are not doing enough damage to ISIS to halt its advances. Unlike a conventional military, ISIS is at its core a guerrilla force with little valuable stationary assets. You have to utilize small continent of ground troops supported by A-10, Apaches and AC-130 to shift the momentum. However, the West doesn't have the political will to do so, and Middle Eastern "partners" sure as hell aren't going to do it unless they get want they want.

 

[KILL KILL]

This is another pretty cool article that talks about the mighty, invincible female Kurdish soldiers that have been slaughtering ISIL for months.

http://rt.com/news/193972-kurdish-women-fighters-isis/#.VDQybTZfSBg.twitter

Female Kurdish fighters ignite fear into Islamic State militants, who believe that they’ll go straight to hell if they are killed by a woman.

The commander of the Kurdish women fighters, Dalil Derki, said that his unit strikes terror into Islamic state militants, who have “twisted Islam.”

“In their philosophy women don't have their own role in society. Their philosophy and culture is that they believe that if they are killed by a woman they won’t go to heaven. Instead they will go to hell,” he explained to RT.

According to the YPG commander, half of the jihadists on the border were killed by women fighters and “if they want to go to hell, they should keep fighting us.”

Another female soldier, Beritan, said that she has already been in many “dangerous fights,” with one battle even lasting “for an entire night and day.”

“I wasn't really scared, I was more focused on killing the terrorists than dying myself,” she explained.

 

[GhostZ06]

 

[Kirku]

How so?

Because you're getting besmirched ITT, and you're handling it really poorly.

 

[zulqarnayn]

The Hittites weren't the first culture there, it was actually the Hattic. Hittite language has a Hattic substratum. Hittite is Indo-European and Hattic is a language isolate.

You Turks bend over and worship an Arab and identify with an East Asian culture despite the fact that you are neither East Asian nor Arab, quite embarrassing for your psyche.

What we call Turks are just the various pre Turkic populations of Anatolia, Asia Minor, Northern Levant and Northern Mesopotamia who were taken over by Turkic tribes , a process anthropologists call Elite Dominance. The genetic input from these Turkic tribes into modern Turks is very minor. Kurds are a mix of Indo-Iranians and pre Indo-Iranian peoples of that region so the Kurds are partly native to their area.

You Nationalist Turks are soo happy to kill the Armenians and Kurds and Christians of the region in the name of Turkish supremacy but can't seem to fathom that you are overwhelmingly made up of non Turkic peoples of the region with affinity to those you seek to destroy and subjugate.

What does that even mean? God is Arab? wtf? Do you even know that 80% of the world's Muslim population is non-Arab? If you're referring to Mohamed then you couldn't have been more wrong; he's a prophet.

And NO you're wrong again no one is happy to kill anyone; Turkey's actions was a retaliatory response to Armenian aggression. You're trying to play the Armenians and Kurds as the victims while you paint the Turks as evil and bloodthirsty savages by purposely excluding the fact it was justified. You're extremely dubious assumptions can only mean your ignorant or just an outright liar with a personal animosity towards Turkey. Do you even know why the conflict between the Armenians and Turks began?
The Ottoman Empire was collapsing, and everyone was trying to take a piece. Bulgaria, Greece, some Arab countries were already formed. Russia gave the Armenians hope for a new country so they revolted against the Government. That is, they wanted an Armenia in the lands of the Ottomans. They stroke Turkish villages, many Turkish villagers died, many women were raped. Ottomans stroke back. There was blood shed on both sides. So the Turks decided to expel the Armenians away from their lands.
Then you go on and blame the Turks for their actions? What the hell do people expect? This deceitful nonsense that has been thrown around by the media that the Turks committed "genocide" against the Armenians is preposterous. It's a hidden agenda perpetrated by a hateful 'group' to promote the Turks as the aggressors when in fact they were well within their rights to defend their sovereignty.

 

[whougonnacall]

some twitter activity hinting the wests airstrikes are ramping up around kobane......finaly!!
Jenan Moussa @jenanmoussa
Follow
#Kobane now: Coalition jets still in air. I am not at border at the moment but eyewitness tells me 2 strikes in last 20 mins. @akhbar
New airstrike is in West #Kobane. There is certainly escalation on side of the coalition. We never saw so many strikes in one day. @akhbar

https://en-maktoob.news.yahoo.com/video/frenchman-fights-return-sister-syria-171824933.html
Frenchmans sister joins isis , now regretting it , cant decide if this is funny / justice served or tragic

 

[KILL KILL]

some twitter activity hinting the wests airstrikes are ramping up around kobane......finaly!!
Jenan Moussa @jenanmoussa
Follow
#Kobane now: Coalition jets still in air. I am not at border at the moment but eyewitness tells me 2 strikes in last 20 mins. @akhbar
New airstrike is in West #Kobane. There is certainly escalation on side of the coalition. We never saw so many strikes in one day. @akhbar

https://en-maktoob.news.yahoo.com/video/frenchman-fights-return-sister-syria-171824933.html
Frenchmans sister joins isis , now regretting it , cant decide if this is funny / justice served or tragic

Check out my posts from lastnight and this morning. I even used some of these tweets lol.

 

[Zankou]

According to: "Seeing Islam as Others Saw It: A Survey and Evaluation of Christian, Jewish and Zoroastrian Writings on Early Islam" the first note about Muhammed was made by Thomas the Presbyter in ca:640.

However, Thomas only refeers to him as "Muhammed of the Arabs" - and never states anything else characteristic about Muhammed. It basically only describes him as a leader of sorts in vauge terms.

Here is the book btw if anyone is intrested. Thomas the Presbyter is on page 120: http://bookzz.org/book/1190569/0daf03



That's intresting since the dominant narrative has been Umayyad Caliphs who have tried to impose arabanization on other etnicities - and folks like the Persians trying to resist such assimilation processes.



Looks really intresting. And even more intresting - a library in my area has it! I'll definitively get my filthy, filthy paws on it soon!

Sorry I may not have been clear -- I meant earliest historical record in the sense of an *actual* historical object, i.e. something that was actually produced at the time. There are texts that are dated earlier in terms of their original composition (most obviously, the Qur'an itself!), but they often have severe problems in terms of authenticity and being only known from redacted copies of redacted copies, with interpolations and anachronisms. IMHO the earliest clear dated use of the name "Mohammed" in a text that does not have authenticity problems is probably the Sebeos Chronicles dating to 660 AD, but this is a disputed subject when you move beyond the actual concrete historical evidence -- the earliest of which shows up 685 AD in the form of Persian coinage.

That Hoyland book has a lot of critical material in general, it's a recent classic in the field. As modern scholarship has shown how unreliable the later Islamic historical accounts are, the earlier non-Islamic accounts have become vital (though they suffer from reliability problems of their own).

By now it has long been a truism that the early Arab Conquests were probably far less conquests (in terms of battles), and far less 'Arab,' than the dominant narratives later argued. Following Mohammed's death, both the Arab language and the Arab religion seems to have been held very close to the vest. Islam was not really thought of as a distinct religion open to converts until remarkably late. In fact nobody seems to have had any conception of Islam as a separate religion until well into the Umayyad era, so even the idea of conversion was fairly incoherent ... and when it emerged, it emerged largely as a consequence of people avoiding the taxation policies begun initially by Abd al Malik (prior to which there were periodic levies, but no regular taxation). This is, in many ways, the point in time at which a distinctively "Arab" identity emerged, along with a distinctively "Islamic" religion. This guy gives a great rendition of the basic gist of modern scholarship on this point ... well worth a read!

http://attwiw.com/2014/01/22/islamic-history-part-16-the-caliphate-of-abd-al-malik-685-705/

Another interesting point that reverses traditional understanding is that it is now widely believed that Arabic, as a language group, was already widespread throughout the Levant, Syria, and Mesopotamia long before Mohammed. In other words, the process of Arabization and conquest was somewhat similar to the false narratives in the book of Joshua, where descendents of the Canaanites claimed they were outsiders who conquered the land -- in reality they were already pervasive throughout the land, and slowly formed an explanation about how that came to be in terms of divinely sanctioned conquest.

 

[fissionfusion]

What does that even mean? God is Arab? wtf? Do you even know that 80% of the world's Muslim population is non-Arab? If you're referring to Mohamed then you couldn't have been more wrong; he's a prophet.

And NO you're wrong again no one is happy to kill anyone; Turkey's actions was a retaliatory response to Armenian aggression. You're trying to play the Armenians and Kurds as the victims while you paint the Turks as evil and bloodthirsty savages by purposely excluding the fact it was justified. You're extremely dubious assumptions can only mean your ignorant or just an outright liar with a personal animosity towards Turkey. Do you even know why the conflict between the Armenians and Turks began?
The Ottoman Empire was collapsing, and everyone was trying to take a piece. Bulgaria, Greece, some Arab countries were already formed. Russia gave the Armenians hope for a new country so they revolted against the Government. That is, they wanted an Armenia in the lands of the Ottomans. They stroke Turkish villages, many Turkish villagers died, many women were raped. Ottomans stroke back. There was blood shed on both sides. So the Turks decided to expel the Armenians away from their lands.
Then you go on and blame the Turks for their actions? What the hell do people expect? This deceitful nonsense that has been thrown around by the media that the Turks committed "genocide" against the Armenians is preposterous. It's a hidden agenda perpetrated by a hateful 'group' to promote the Turks as the aggressors when in fact they were well within their rights to defend their sovereignty.

This would make for a great fiction novel.

 

[GhostZ06]

 

[Zankou]

What does that even mean? God is Arab? wtf? Do you even know that 80% of the world's Muslim population is non-Arab? If you're referring to Mohamed then you couldn't have been more wrong; he's a prophet.

And NO you're wrong again no one is happy to kill anyone; Turkey's actions was a retaliatory response to Armenian aggression. You're trying to play the Armenians and Kurds as the victims while you paint the Turks as evil and bloodthirsty savages by purposely excluding the fact it was justified. You're extremely dubious assumptions can only mean your ignorant or just an outright liar with a personal animosity towards Turkey. Do you even know why the conflict between the Armenians and Turks began?
The Ottoman Empire was collapsing, and everyone was trying to take a piece. Bulgaria, Greece, some Arab countries were already formed. Russia gave the Armenians hope for a new country so they revolted against the Government. That is, they wanted an Armenia in the lands of the Ottomans. They stroke Turkish villages, many Turkish villagers died, many women were raped. Ottomans stroke back. There was blood shed on both sides. So the Turks decided to expel the Armenians away from their lands.
Then you go on and blame the Turks for their actions? What the hell do people expect? This deceitful nonsense that has been thrown around by the media that the Turks committed "genocide" against the Armenians is preposterous. It's a hidden agenda perpetrated by a hateful 'group' to promote the Turks as the aggressors when in fact they were well within their rights to defend their sovereignty.

We already know, everybody in the region who is not a Turk is trying to destroy the Turks and must be expelled and/or killed, it's okay to do so because they are evil enemies threatening Turkey's continued existence.

"The percentage of non-Muslims in Turkey fell from 19% in 1914 to 2.5% in 1927."

But not genocide, no, this was just defense. 100 years later, the playbook hasn't changed.

Btw I love the point about how the Turks expelled the Armenians from 'their lands,' as if the Ottoman Turks were the rightful inhabitants rather than comparatively recent interlopers. We Americans likewise remember when we expelled those savage, murderous Indians from our own lands -- they were basically terrorists -- so we're kind of a team there.

 

[Victor Maitland]

Another war "by way of deception" .
The extremists think they are fighting for some islamic cause. But CIA/Mossad are pulling the strings. As soon as they have committed enough atrocities and shocked people enough , any military action will be completely unopposed and US/Israel will be able to carry out all their military objectives in the region under the guise of fighting the terrorists that they control. Take down the Syria regime and create a gateway to attack Iran. Just a wild guess !!

 

[KILL KILL]

Another war "by way of deception" .
The extremists think they are fighting for some islamic cause. But CIA/Mossad are pulling the strings. As soon as they have committed enough atrocities and shocked people enough , any military action will be completely unopposed and US/Israel will be able to carry out all their military objectives in the region under the guise of fighting the terrorists that they control. Take down the Syria regime and create a gateway to attack Iran. Just a wild guess !!

CIA and Mossad you say? It may have been a guess, but it was a pretty dumb guess.

 

[MicroBrew]

Zulqarnayn

Turks were a great nation even before they adopted Islam. This religion did not help the Arabs, Iranians, Egyptians and others to unite with Turks to form a nation. Conversely, it weakened the Turks’ national relations; it numbed Turkish national feelings and enthusiasm. This was natural, because Mohammedanism was based on Arab nationalism above all nationalities.

Mustapha Kemal Ataturk

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Mustafa_Kemal_Atatürk

Islam is how the Gulf Arabs carried out their conquest and subjugation of non Arabs, it is the vehicle that the Gulf Arabs used/use to further Gulf Arab cultural hegemony. Other cultures have used Islam to further their own conquests and ethnic goals but ultimately it is Arab cultural expansionism , something that got a resurgence from the Saudis pushing Wahabism on the world for decades now.

 

[YoungBoyd]

There were massive protests being held in turkey over night. Shit got kind of crazy. Fires were burned, and the police were forced to break it up and enact a curfew. Perhaps that helped Turkey realize that they're being douche bags.

One reporter on the border tweeted earlier;

Supposedly 10+ people killed in protests. Shameful situation really.

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/vi...inces.aspx?pageID=238&nID=72659&NewsCatID=341

VIDEO: More than 10 killed in ISIL protests across Turkey as curfew declared in five provinces

 

[zulqarnayn]

Zulqarnayn



Mustapha Kemal Ataturk

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Mustafa_Kemal_Atatürk

Islam is how the Gulf Arabs carried out their conquest and subjugation of non Arabs, it is the vehicle that the Gulf Arabs used/use to further Gulf Arab cultural hegemony. Other cultures have used Islam to further their own conquests and ethnic goals but ultimately it is Arab cultural expansionism , something that got a resurgence from the Saudis pushing Wahabism on the world for decades now.

What is the point of this? This discussion started out as; Turkey supports ISIS. Then it became Turkey is happy to kill Armenians, Kurds and Christians of the region in the name of Turkish supremacy. And now it's about Arab cultural hegemony? What are you trying to say exactly? Please make up your mind.

 

[MicroBrew]

What does that even mean? God is Arab? wtf? Do you even know that 80% of the world's Muslim population is non-Arab? If you're referring to Mohamed then you couldn't have been more wrong; he's a prophet.

And NO you're wrong again no one is happy to kill anyone; Turkey's actions was a retaliatory response to Armenian aggression. You're trying to play the Armenians and Kurds as the victims while you paint the Turks as evil and bloodthirsty savages by purposely excluding the fact it was justified. You're extremely dubious assumptions can only mean your ignorant or just an outright liar with a personal animosity towards Turkey. Do you even know why the conflict between the Armenians and Turks began?
The Ottoman Empire was collapsing, and everyone was trying to take a piece. Bulgaria, Greece, some Arab countries were already formed. Russia gave the Armenians hope for a new country so they revolted against the Government. That is, they wanted an Armenia in the lands of the Ottomans. They stroke Turkish villages, many Turkish villagers died, many women were raped. Ottomans stroke back. There was blood shed on both sides. So the Turks decided to expel the Armenians away from their lands.
Then you go on and blame the Turks for their actions? What the hell do people expect? This deceitful nonsense that has been thrown around by the media that the Turks committed "genocide" against the Armenians is preposterous. It's a hidden agenda perpetrated by a hateful 'group' to promote the Turks as the aggressors when in fact they were well within their rights to defend their sovereignty.

See my above post about Ataturk's quote.

How does 80% or more of the world's Muslims being non Arab change the fact that Islam is an Arab creation.

Allah is the Arabic name for god , which was carried over from pre-Mohammedan Arab pagan religion . Ofcourse there are cognates for Allah in other Semitic languages but it is the Arabs who use that specific name .Non Arab Muslims around the world use the name Allah only because their pre Arabian religion was replaced with Islam. So when you pray to Allah, you a non Arab are praying to an Arab god.

Muhammed was an Arab, from the tribe of Quraysh , from what is now Saudi Arabia. So you a non Arab prostrate yourself to the pronouncements of an Arab as the word of god (god of the Arabs) .

You complain about Armenians allegedly trying to take away Ottoman land and right after you mention this : "The Ottoman Empire was collapsing" . How exactly do you think the Ottoman empire came about ; how do empires come about unless they conquer and subjugate cultures. With your logic Kenyans were the aggressors for trying to evict the British empire from Kenya.

Armenians are , as far as we know, natives of the region taken over by Indo-Iranian conquerors. Just as Turkic pastoral tribes from what is now Mongolia spread out and conquered diverse races so too did the Indo-Europeans semi-nomadic pastoralists spread out from the Pontic Caspian steppes. The fact that Armenians speak an I-E language does not mean they are from the Indo-European homeland, just as an African American or a Spanish speaking Amerindian aren't English and Spanish respectively.

 

[MicroBrew]

What is the point of this? This discussion started out as; Turkey supports ISIS. Then it became Turkey is happy to kill Armenians, Kurds and Christians of the region in the name of Turkish supremacy. And now it's about Arab cultural hegemony? What are you trying to say exactly? Please make up your mind.

You were the one who inserted the argument that the Kurds were terrorists trying to steal Turkish land. So the counter argument then explorers the relationship between the Kurds and the Turks in a historical context and how today's Turks are essentially just acculturated Turks and not real Turks.

Are you uncomfortable that exploring the roots of Islam and having the fact that you bend over and pray to an Arab bluntly stated to you is upsetting your Turkish sensitivities.