Islamic State/Iraq Thread v4: The Caliphate is somewhere in Canada

[MadHorse]

Hey Kill Kill, thanks for informative posts!

 

[TheFinalBoss]

Ye man thanks Kill Kill

 

[Concrete]

If IS have focused their forces at Kobane, couldn't Turkey score a great victory by pouring armour over the border?

 

[Lonesome Crow]

If ISIS is sending reinforcements to Kobane, wouldn't those columns and the current ISIS positions be ideal targets for an AC-130?

B-1s are cool and all, F-16s and Rafales are Takayama levels of sexy, but if you really want to rustle some snackbar jimmies, nothing brings the pain like the AC-130.

 

[KILL KILL]

If IS have focused their forces at Kobane, couldn't Turkey score a great victory by pouring armour over the border?

oh god yeah. If they wanted, they could easily end the siege within hours. but they choose to do nothing, turning a blind eye on those still in the town. It's impossible to justify Turkey's actions. They should at least get the boot from the UN for this.

This is what Turkey has sitting only a few hundred meters away from Kobane...

EDIT: I wish I had more info because I just saw someone post photos of a pick up truck bed with like half a dozen dead Kurd bodies in the back. Things may not be going so well.

 

[ShinkanPo]

oh god yeah. If they wanted, they could easily end the siege within hours. but they choose to do nothing, turning a blind eye on those still in the town. It's impossible to justify Turkey's actions. They should at least get the boot from the UN for this.

This is what Turkey has sitting only a few hundred meters away from Kobane...

What are those tanks T-62s?

 

[Videer]

Those are PAttons, looks like M60A3 variant.

 

[xcvbn]

Findings show IS is using US made ammunition... no fucking shit

 

[Zankou]

Findings show IS is using US made ammunition... no fucking shit

"Findings?" They are openly driving around in US tanks and hummers. It's not a secret that half their equipment was seized from the Iraqi armed forces, all American made. You act as though this was some sort of revelation.

 

[Zankou]

The Hittites weren't the first culture there, it was actually the Hattic. Hittite language has a Hattic substratum. Hittite is Indo-European and Hattic is a language isolate.

You Turks bend over and worship an Arab and identify with an East Asian culture despite the fact that you are neither East Asian nor Arab, quite embarrassing for your psyche.

What we call Turks are just the various pre Turkic populations of Anatolia, Asia Minor, Northern Levant and Northern Mesopotamia who were taken over by Turkic tribes , a process anthropologists call Elite Dominance. The genetic input from these Turkic tribes into modern Turks is very minor. Kurds are a mix of Indo-Iranians and pre Indo-Iranian peoples of that region so the Kurds are partly native to their area.

You Nationalist Turks are soo happy to kill the Armenians and Kurds and Christians of the region in the name of Turkish supremacy but can't seem to fathom that you are overwhelmingly made up of non Turkic peoples of the region with affinity to those you seek to destroy and subjugate.

I've honestly never understood how Turks can accept their ethno-religious identity when it was forced on their descendants by horrific conquest.

I suppose it's equivalent to Native Americans identifying themselves as American, but they at least have some pride and distance. Turks are literally prostrating themselves towards Mecca five times a day, proud of their cultural/linguistic roots in Turkic Central Asia, and seemingly have no problem with this.

I guess if you think about it, it's a universal historical phenomenon -- people either tend to successfully resist the ideologies of their conquerors or they assimilate fully to them. Islam is almost the perfected imperial technique of ideological subordination and assimilation based on Roman imperial antecedents, mediated through Persian/Byzantine successors.

I suppose you would say the same thing for the continuing affiliations of more modern colonized nations with their colonizers (like Anglophone India). In many ways European colonialism was a further refinement of Muslim imperialism, which in turn was a refinement of Byzantine imperialism, which was sort of a marriage of Roman imperialism and bonkers Judaic nationalist religion. There's a reason these ideologies spread and lasted so successfully -- they are extremely aggressive, adaptable, and dominating.

 

[TheFinalBoss]

"Findings?" They are openly driving around in US tanks and hummers. It's not a secret that half their equipment was seized from the Iraqi armed forces, all American made. You act as though this was some sort of revelation.

But did u know that these tanks are now invincible?? I heard this from a very reliable source

 

[Zankou]

But did u know that these tanks are now invincible?? I heard this from a very reliable source

Yep. They just read a special Qur'anic blessing over the tanks, and they are transformed from hateful Crusader tanks (may they be damned into jehenna for eternity) into the blessed invincible chariots of Allah and his prophet (pbuh).

 

[Concrete]

Remember that orthodox priest just drenching soldiers and their guns in holy water?It was like that but with oil.

 

[Videer]

"Findings?" They are openly driving around in US tanks and hummers. It's not a secret that half their equipment was seized from the Iraqi armed forces, all American made. You act as though this was some sort of revelation.

There are nuts out there that think it is proof that we have actually supplied them with those weapons.

 

[Zankou]

There are nuts out there that think it is proof that we have actually supplied them with those weapons.

Not only that, there are nuts out there who believe Al Baghdadi is a Mossad agent.

Humans are just too stupid for words. I continue to marvel at how such a bunch of worthless imbeciles have nevertheless become increasingly pervaded by forms of rationality. It's like the central mystery of human history, how reason has managed to overcome the human propensity towards theological gibberish.

 

[europe1]

Turks are literally prostrating themselves towards Mecca five times a day, proud of their cultural/linguistic roots in Turkic Central Asia, and seemingly have no problem with this.

Are you saying that you need to be culturally/linguistically Arab to be a "proper" Muslim? (Arab meaning Gulf-Arab in this post).

Plenty of nations have pride in their cultural/linguistic roots but still pray towards Mecca. The Kurds, Persians, Bosnians, etc - all do the same. Turks are hardly alone in that regard.

That being said - the early history of Islam is basically the history of the Arabs. There is very little other history for the Arabs to form an identity around. And becuse Islam was invented by the Arabs, Islams early sources reflects Arab cultural traits and values. Hadits that talk about stuff like "how great camels are and how lowly dogs are" would only have emerged in an Arabian context. If Islam had emerged on the Turkic plains, such cultural antedotes would not exist.

So... basically, Early Islam is formilized around Arabism. (EDIT: as well as other influences such as Judeo-Christianity)

That being said - when Islam comes into contact with other nations, there is a form of cultural adjusting that comences. The fact that Persian- and Indonesian Islam is very much more tolerant towards (for example) image-making and saints than Arab Islam, is a sign of such adjustments. That is becuse such practices where already ingrained in their cultural context and never became an identity-issue to fight over (like how image-making became a identity-issue in the early Umayyad times for example)


EDIT: Of course, every person would argue that their own interpitation is the correct one. So an Iranian Muslim would argue that Arab Islam is Unortodox, while his own is Ortodox. Which one of these Islam(s) that is the "correct" Islam is pretty much an academical question, and have very little relevance to the conflict itself.

based on Roman imperial antecedents, mediated through Persian/Byzantine successors..

Roman Imperial antecedents influences the Persian Emprie? Wow never knew that. Sounds like intresting reading.



EDIT: Zankou, you realize that you started your post with saying "I've honestly never understood" and then proceded to give an explenation for the phenomenon that you just said you never understood?:icon_lol:

 

[Zankou]

I would say it rather differently Europe1 -- Early Islam slowly emerged and consolidated around *Arabizing*, although the issue is stupendously complex.

You do not see any real emphasis on privileging Arab cultural identity until Abd al Malik, when Arabic became the language of the emerging caliphate and its bureaucracy. Interestingly, a little-known fact is that the first historical "Islamic" inscriptions are actually coins dating from Persia, dated 685 AD. Prior to this you never had any coins, texts, or inscriptions mention Muhammad, much less the Qur'an.

It was in the 8th - 10th centuries that Islam was constructed as a distinctively Arab religion ... largely constructed by *non-Arabs* in fact, notably so-called Persians who defined many of the characteristic features of the religion as a sort of retrospective project. Most of the definitive texts of Islam are actually compiled by Persians (Tabari (the greatest Islamic exegete), Bukhari (the most definitive hadith compilation), Sibawayh (the greatest scholar of the Arabic language) -- all were Persians).

Btw I just got this book but have not read it yet ... it looks awesomely interesting.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0691157731/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o05_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

The broader point is that what we now loosely call "Persia" or "Persian" was basically a staggeringly diverse and sophisticated Central Asian set of cultural mixtures. What you see in the Abassid caliphate is this Central Asian culture essentially taking over and assimilating the much cruder "Arab religion" of the Umayyad caliphate (largely a Syrian artifact), displacing ethnic Arab authority with a fabulously sophisticated new religious entity, Islam, which radically transformed the Arab religion.

 

[Orgasmo]

Well this is obviously a biased one sided perspective on the matter. Why are the Kurdish terrorists not held responsible for their actions?
why is it not mentioned when it's a retaliation against Kurdish aggression?

Not to mention this conflict happened a long time ago; Kurdish rebellions have been going on for over 2 centuries against the Ottoman empire. What's the point of going back a century to explain and apologize for violence that is viewed by many Turks as an attack on their sovereignty? The Kurds like to play the victim when they effectively lose their treacherous attempts to cause strife and undermine Turkish authority.

The West has no right to play the righteous; not too long ago you caused the biggest wars in modern history. Not to mention European colonization which it's sole purpose was to cause havoc and strife in the Middle East by insisting that warring ethnic groups combine to form single nations. Moreover, puppet regimes and dictatorships were installed to culminate the West's colonization of the Middle East by ensuring no resistance will be met by the local populace to maintain your theft of natural resources and effectively control the region. Most of the world's current conflicts can trace their origins back to this diplomatic lunacy.

Next you're going to call Joe Biden, vice president of US a pathetic one-sided biased guy out to besmirch Turkey? I don't know if you fully understand what the word "pathetic" means. Look to your own comments for its very definition. Like I said before, you and liquidfire are just different side of the same coin. He's proudly supporting ISIS while you're the apologist.

"Our biggest problem was our allies," Mr Biden told students at the Harvard Kennedy School.

"The Turks… the Saudis, the Emirates, etc, what were they doing? They were so determined to take down (Syrian President Bashar al) Assad and essentially have a proxy Sunni-Shia war, what did they do? They poured hundreds of millions of dollars and tens, thousands of tonnes of weapons into anyone who would fight against Assad."

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-29528482

You sound just like that Islamist piece of shit Erdogan, one false denial after another.

Erdogan denied making such remarks, insisted that no militants had ever crossed into Syria from Turkey, and said Biden would become "history to me" over the vice president's comments.

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2014/10/06/joe_biden_is_the_only_honest_man_in_washington

 

[KILL KILL]

Turkey calls for Ground Invasion (Plus footage of shit blowing up)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/islamic-state/11146053/Turkey-calls-for-ground-invasion-of-Kobane-to-stop-Isil.html

As Islamic State jihadists continue to make gains in key Syrian border town, Turkish president Recep Tayyip Erdogan calls for a ground operation to slow their advance

The president of Turkey has urged for ground troops to be deployed in Kobane as the key Syrian border town teeters on the verge of falling under the control of the Islamic State and of Iraq and the Levant (Isil).

The town has been under assault by Isil jihadists for more than three weeks and has become a focal point for the West's air strikes against the terrorist organisation.

The fall of Kobane to Isil would mark a major victory for the jihadists, who are fighting for a long stretch of the border with Turkey for their self-proclaimed "Islamic caliphate".

At least 412 people, more than half of them jihadists, have been killed in and around Kobane since mid-September, according to the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights, a Britain-based monitoring group.

Turkish president Recep Tayyip Erdogan has warned that a ground operation is needed to defeat the militants, fuelling concerns that US-led air strikes are doing little to halt Isil's advances.

"The terror will not be over... unless we cooperate for a ground operation," president Erdogan said in a televised speech in the eastern city of Gaziantep, adding that air strikes were not enough on their own.

"Months have passed but no results have been achieved. Kobane is about to fall."

His comments came as Dutch F-16s joined the fight in northern Iraq, possibly killing Isil militants with their first aerial strikes, the country's defence ministry said.

"Two Dutch F-16s this morning used weapons for the first time in Iraq against the IS terror group. They dropped three bombs on armed IS vehicles that were shooting at (Kurdish) Peshmerga fighters in the north of the country," a statement said.

"Vehicles were destroyed in the attack and Isil fighters possibly killed."

Despite an initial slowing in the jihadist

 

[europe1]

Interestingly, a little-known fact is that the first historical "Islamic" inscriptions are actually coins dating from Persia, dated 685 AD. Prior to this you never had any coins, texts, or inscriptions mention Muhammad, much less the Qur'an.

According to: "Seeing Islam as Others Saw It: A Survey and Evaluation of Christian, Jewish and Zoroastrian Writings on Early Islam" the first note about Muhammed was made by Thomas the Presbyter in ca:640.

However, Thomas only refeers to him as "Muhammed of the Arabs" - and never states anything else characteristic about Muhammed. It basically only describes him as a leader of sorts in vauge terms.

Here is the book btw if anyone is intrested. Thomas the Presbyter is on page 120: http://bookzz.org/book/1190569/0daf03

It was in the 8th - 10th centuries that Islam was constructed as a distinctively Arab religion ... largely constructed by *non-Arabs* in fact, notably so-called Persians who defined many of the characteristic features of the religion as a sort of retrospective project. Most of the definitive texts of Islam are actually compiled by Persians (Tabari (the greatest Islamic exegete), Bukhari (the most definitive hadith compilation), Sibawayh (the greatest scholar of the Arabic language) -- all were Persians).

That's intresting since the dominant narrative has been Umayyad Caliphs who have tried to impose arabanization on other etnicities - and folks like the Persians trying to resist such assimilation processes.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0691157731/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o05_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Looks really intresting. And even more intresting - a library in my area has it! I'll definitively get my filthy, filthy paws on it soon!