Is Jon Jones beating his opponents at LHW with his skill or his size?

[Chain Saw]

Ok then its proven. You are no longer needed.

This thread is no longer needed.

 

[slipleft]

What?

Listen here:
Gus and Jones are roughly the same size.

DC beat Gus but he never came close to beating Jon.

This literally proves that Jones is winning due to his skill, not his size, because Gus is the same fucking size as him and has not been nearly as successful.

Not at all. Jones beat DC while Gus did not because Jones has a better balance of skill and size (length) than Gus.

 

[Chi-City]

who said that? nobody. Question is which contributes more to his success? Would he be like a prime Anderson Silva at LHW if his size wasnt there, only a 76" reach? or is he a very good striker that has a very large frame that nobody can compete with.

First lets be clear size and reach are not the same so when you say "size" it seems like a red herring. Jones had the size advantage in three of his fights at LHW. There are no reach classes.

The major point you seem to over look is there have been may fighters in many weight classes who have had just as big of a reach advantage as Jones yet none of them where anywhere nearly as successful as Jones. Why is that?

 

[VIPERdude]

most HWs are slow. anyway ... DCs HW run is overrated.

I happen to agree. Plus DC at HW he wasnt cutting all the weight.

 

[MikeMcMann]

How are you saying anything different than I am then? I am saying Jons size is a huge part of his success. A prime MW Silva would beat Jones handily if the guy didnt have such a massive frame to work with. My argument being he is lucky to be able to make LHW. At HW Jones will be at home but not superior. Im not discrediting his skill at all.

What I am saying is EVRYONE's size and build contribute to whatever level of success they have as they have learned to use that specific body style optimally.

What seperates the top guys from everyone else is the level of skill they can APPLY to that body style. DIabate with Jones anti wrestling SKILLS and clinch game SKILLS could have been a murderer with his elite striking game. But he did not have those other SKILLS and therefore guys could force him out of his game into their games and beat him.

The differentiator at the top levels of MMA is and always be the skill, SKILL, SKILL.

You want to pretend it is the size.

 

[Chain Saw]

Not at all. Jones beat DC while Gus did not because Jones has a better balance of skill and size (length) than Gus.

Skill.

One got flipped up on his back, one wasn't even a real takedown.

 

[VIPERdude]

First lets be clear size and reach are not the same so when you say "size" it seems like a red herring. Jones had the size advantage in three of his fights at LHW. There are no reach classes.

The major point you seem to over look is there have been may fighters in many weight classes who have had just as big of a reach advantage as Jones yet none of them where anywhere nearly as successful as Jones. Why is that?

They fought in their rightful weight class. You think Jones is talking about challenging himself at HW? He has been wanting to move permanently since 2014. Also has stated in an interview that he would HAVE TO because he was getting older and his body was changing and the weight cut would be harder to do. He is a natural HW.

 

[MikeMcMann]

It's a confluence of factors, of which length is certainly one. Length doesn't equate solely to reach, but also to leverage. So why create a list of lengthy but lesser-skilled fighters to prove your point? Many of the lengthy fighters you identify had the moderate success they did due to their length and despite their lesser skill, which counters the point you are trying to make.

Ceterus parabus, a longer fighter will win. But ceterus isn't always parabus, so take caution when using examples.

you cite 'despite their lesser skill' and think somehow you countered my point? That made my point.

But yes its a confluence of factors of which SKILL is the pre eminent one. No body style makes it to the top of MMA without a super high level of skill to apply it and arguably the tall lanky build, could be argued requires the most skill to over come its inherent challenges, and therefore when a guy like Jones or Anderson breaks through they truly dominate as they had to have even higher skill than others.

 

[Fatal Catro]

This is getting old.

 

[MikeMcMann]

So exceptions prove the rule?

Guess what, people have fallen from planes at 30,000 ft altitude, without parachutes or some other netting device, and lived .... so you figure that means that falling from great heights isn't dangerous?

The RULE throughout MMA history has been of stocky grapplers dominating lankier fighters.

That has been mostly the standard since MMA started with very few exceptions.

 

[MyEnglishIsPeperoni]

What I am saying is EVRYONE's size and build contribute to whatever level of success they have as they have learned to use that specific body style optimally.

What seperates the top guys from everyone else is the level of skill they can APPLY to that body style. DIabate with Jones anti wrestling SKILLS and clinch game SKILLS could have been a murderer with his elite striking game. But he did not have those other SKILLS and therefore guys could force him out of his game into their games and beat him.

The differentiator at the top levels of MMA is and always be the skill, SKILL, SKILL.

You want to pretend it is the size.

depends which sports etc. BUT its possible, even with all your "disadvantages", but its hard and thats why i like mma/soccer etc. cuz you can even win with "disadvantages" ... just my opinion.
edit: theres only one way to find it out ... they have to swap their bodies ... lol

 

[Chain Saw]

Skill.

Jones is the better MMA wrestler.

 

[VIPERdude]

Skill.

Jones is the better MMA wrestler.

hm....some say skill some say size. Many say both, which doesnt answer the question much ...but the debate continues

 

[Chain Saw]

funny how i said the same thing to your mom

Awww, did I hurt your wittle feelings by telling you your thread was fucking retarded?

Jon Jones is the GOAT bitch, get mad about it.

 

[Squarechoke]

The answer, which should be extremely obvious, is both.

He has some insane physical advantages, that's undeniable, and he clearly has the skill to make the best of them in all aspects of the game. All fighters are combinations of their attributes and what they've learned.

Well, that and we all know what he spices that combo with...

 

[slipleft]

The RULE throughout MMA history has been of stocky grapplers dominating lankier fighters.

That has been mostly the standard since MMA started with very few exceptions.

It did traditionally, though I disagree that persists today. My sense is that the top 5 of each division are increasingly dominated by more balanced competitors, and the stocky grapplers are having less success because of it. Woodley is an exception, but otherwise it seems to hold.

 

[MyEnglishIsPeperoni]

Skill.

Jones is the better MMA wrestler.

every1 knows that cormier isnt the best MMA wrestler ... lol. Gus took jones down and never wrestled in his life.

best mma wrestler are probably GSP/woodley/khabib etc ... when it comes to pure wrestling, yoel is probably the best.

 

[VIPERdude]

This is getting old.

what is, seems like Sherdog would be the place for a discussion. How those who have nothing to say, say something anyway lol. Always entertaining

 

[MikeMcMann]

First lets be clear size and reach are not the same so when you say "size" it seems like a red herring. Jones had the size advantage in three of his fights at LHW. There are no reach classes.

The major point you seem to over look is there have been may fighters in many weight classes who have had just as big of a reach advantage as Jones yet none of them where anywhere nearly as successful as Jones. Why is that?

No one putting forth that Jones wins due to size will ever engage your question there honestly as the difference is how Jones applies that body style. The DIFFERENTIATOR. And that differentiator is the SKILL.

Why could Diabate not due everything Jones could do and more at LHW when as TS says Daibate even has an elite skill area (his striking) and Jones does not have one dominant area?

The difference is solely the overall skill level Jones brought to the game. He may not be the best pure wrestler but his MMA wrestling is good enough to nullify the best wrestlers in the division. He may not be the best pure striker in the division but his MMA striking is good enough to hold with the best in the division. His clinch game, where lanky guys usual suffer as they struggle to get power in close, is instead devastating as he has found a way to use elbows and other short strikes effectively.

Jones is arguably the most complete fighter(well balanced in all areas) this sport has seen and that allows him to beat guys who look like they have a clear advantage in certain areas. And some shertards want to argue that to be that takes little or no skill and simply showing up with a size advantage is enough to take people to being one of the GOATs of this sports.

Shertards. Trolls, Idiots.

 

[slipleft]

you cite 'despite their lesser skill' and think somehow you countered my point? That made my point.

But yes its a confluence of factors of which SKILL is the pre eminent one. No body style makes it to the top of MMA without a super high level of skill to apply it and arguably the tall lanky build, could be argued requires the most skill to over come its inherent challenges, and therefore when a guy like Jones or Anderson breaks through they truly dominate as they had to have even higher skill than others.

Hm. I'm saying that if those fighters had their same skill level, but were of more average build, I think they would've been even less successful.

And you say "skill is the preeminent one", but I honestly don't even know what skill means. Skill sounds like a lot of factors all rolled into one, so sure, lots of factors in combination will be more important by comparison than a single factor.

But I do seem to recall a study that showed successful fighters have, on average, above average reach. Maybe would be worth finding.