Is concentrated orange juice just sugar and unhealthy?

[XMoker]

lol... you missed what I was getting at, either that or I worded it poorly. What I'm saying is; people should not be drilling certain theories that they themselves do not apply.

So, I'm not saying whether or not someone is giving good or ill advice, I'm saying that you shouldn't press something so hard, if you yourself, do not do it. Take carbs for example. Why should I scold someone about how "bad" carbs are, if I eat them as well? I was not supporting what he was saying per se, I just was mentioning that I don't like when people are hypocrites. Practice what you preach, and preach what you practice. Bad advice is still bad advice. What you personally do does not change that. So no... that's not what I was saying. lol

That's... I don't know how to put it.. something seems off.

What's wrong with giving advice that you don't follow, if you know full well you should follow it?

Ok this is might be reaching, or I might be trying to argue semantics, but here goes. Is it wrong for a smoker to suggest to their kids they not smoke? The advice is solid no matter who dispenses it, no?

 

[Endo]

Is it wrong for a smoker to suggest to their kids they not smoke? The advice is solid no matter who dispenses it, no?

That's an excellent example. No, it does not make it bad advice. Which is what I said. I just think it's wrong. On the topic of kids, if you tell someone not to do something you do, what do you think is going to happen? Do you think they are going to listen to you, even though you are right? Probably not, but you succeeded in making yourself look like an ass.

Suggesting to a child not to smoke due to health reasons, and demanding that they don't smoke, is totally different. You should not bitch someone out because they eat rice, if you eat rice. If rice is bad but you eat it anyways, you should be advising them not to eat it... not telling them.

I'm more of getting at usage of words rather then the idea of what is wrong and right.

 

[XMoker]

Just deleted a long winded response, here's the cliff notes. I think I caught myself in a semantics game.

I do understand the whole "do as I say not as I do" vs "leading by example" and I'm with you on it, with some things, especially impressionable children. But a big fat slob could give sound sports performance nutritional advice, just because he doesn't practice what he preaches doesn't make his advice any less sound.

He could, and I full well know that opens up another derailing argument, like "Would I take dating advice from a gay guy?" "Would I take investing advice from a guy in foreclosure?"

It's not about who is giving the advice, it's about the advice itself. And really, what we are discussing is more fact than opinion anyway, isn't it?

Christ, this is borderline long winded too. And way off topic.

 

[Steakeater**]

Because not everybody is the same.......

some people need a high carb diet, some dont. Im not gonna tell a sedentary fatass to eat as much bread and pasta as I do

 

[Endo]

Absolutely off-topic. You're still missing my point. I'm agreeing with you. It has nothing to do with who gives the advice.

Plain and simple... I just don't like hypocrites.

 

[Rowan11088]

Interesting discussion we have here. Frankly, I think anyone who expects perfection from those doling out GOOD advice here, is just being immature. Don't be so damn insecure, and don't read too far into what is posted here...much of what might seem "elitist" to you probably isn't. I often post stuff I'm quite sure about in a very matter of fact way, but I certainly don't claim to be better than anyone else here...I just have spent a decent amount of time learning about nutrition, as all the regulars have.

HOWEVER, because this is a field with so much misinformation and bad science, I can understand why it's a lot easier to listen to someone who actually takes their own advice. Personal experience makes more of a difference here.

 

[XTrainer]

cool. im not even trying to be a dick.. im actually curious. i drink mainly water, but i didnt think there was anything wrong with a glass of non-concentrated or freshly squeezed juice in the morning.

Look, it's like I said earlier in this thread, it's not going to kill you in and of itself, but neither will Snickers bar.

The point is, the difference between 90% and 100% adherence to just about any nutritional plan is trivial, and a serious athlete can get away with more cheating than a sedentary person before seeing serious health effects. Basic stuff here.

However, lifestyle habits add up. If it is YOUR ONLY dietary vice, no, a glass of OJ in the morning will not hurt you. You'd actually be doing better than most people. But tell me, how strict are you about your diet the rest of the day? When you drink fruit juice, you're consuming sugar alone with little redeeming value. If that's how you choose to spend your 10%, so be it, but recognize it for what it is.

Furthermore, this does not mean unhealthy foods/"cheats" are suddenly acceptable. You have a greater tolerance for them before you see serious effects, true. But you also have higher standards of performance...merely being "fit" isn't good enough for you (or else you're lost )--so the negative effects of "cheating" mean something to you before you're obese, diabetic, etc. (unlike most Americans).

Finally, it is such a darn simple lifestyle change to eliminate sugary beverages and immediately observe better health. You also free up caloric space in your diet for more useful things. Why not do it?

Make sense?
-

 

[joshetc]

it's not a problem if you aren't having issues from it, but that doesn't mean it's a generally good practice. it's certainly better than mountain dew, but if you're fat, being fat is your problem, probably not so much scurvy.

This.

If you are trying to gain weight, drinking juice isn't as bad for you as if you are fat. If you are trying to lose weight you have no business drinking juice of any kind. It simply takes the easiest part of dieting (giving up completely empty calories from drinks) and throwing it out the window.

 

[Steakeater**]

Absolutely off-topic. You're still missing my point. I'm agreeing with you. It has nothing to do with who gives the advice.

Plain and simple... I just don't like hypocrites.

I know what you mean, it just doesnt bother me that people go against what they say assuming we are under the same circumstances, so long as what they tell me it still the truth.

 

[wisdom blows]

Look, it's like I said earlier in this thread, it's not going to kill you in and of itself, but neither will Snickers bar.

The point is, the difference between 90% and 100% adherence to just about any nutritional plan is trivial, and a serious athlete can get away with more cheating than a sedentary person before seeing serious health effects. Basic stuff here.

However, lifestyle habits add up. If it is YOUR ONLY dietary vice, no, a glass of OJ in the morning will not hurt you. You'd actually be doing better than most people. But tell me, how strict are you about your diet the rest of the day? When you drink fruit juice, you're consuming sugar alone with little redeeming value. If that's how you choose to spend your 10%, so be it, but recognize it for what it is.

Furthermore, this does not mean unhealthy foods/"cheats" are suddenly acceptable. You have a greater tolerance for them before you see serious effects, true. But you also have higher standards of performance...merely being "fit" isn't good enough for you (or else you're lost )--so the negative effects of "cheating" mean something to you before you're obese, diabetic, etc. (unlike most Americans).

Finally, it is such a darn simple lifestyle change to eliminate sugary beverages and immediately observe better health. You also free up caloric space in your diet for more useful things. Why not do it?

Make sense?
-

but is there not a difference between sugar in fruit, and sugar in a snickers? i work out 5-6 days a week, so im not really that worried. i follow a 75/25 diet... 75 percent of the time, i eat pretty damn strict, and the other 25 is weekends or whatever... a burrito, 2 slices of pizza, etc...

what is the difference between fruit and fruit juice? fruit is good for you, no?

 

[XMoker]

Fruit juice has more vitamins and other goodies and better taste than a snickers. I think there are very few foods that are in the "absolute 100% don't eat category", It's about when, why and how much you eat/drink it. I think fruit/juice may have it's place, depending on your when, why and how much.

I think in the simplest terms it's fruit juice = processed (unless you're the one squeezing) sugar water, where fruit = fruit juice - processing + fiber. And as far as goodness per calorie, you're better off leaving either out in place of a glass of water and eating something not chock full of sugar.

 

[XTrainer]

but is there not a difference between sugar in fruit, and sugar in a snickers? Fundamentally, no. i work out 5-6 days a week, so im not really that worried. i follow a 75/25 diet... 75 percent of the time, i eat pretty damn strict, and the other 25 is weekends or whatever... a burrito, 2 slices of pizza, etc...

what is the difference between fruit and fruit juice? fruit is good for you, no?

It's a question of nutritional density. Compare an orange and a glass of orange juice. The glass of orange juice has FAR more sugar, is less filling, and there are benefits to eating the actual "flesh" of the fruit, of course...calorie for calorie, you're getting a lot more healthful "stuff" (antioxidants, etc.) out of an orange than a glass of OJ.

Fruit juice has more vitamins and other goodies and better taste than a snickers. It was a minor exaggeration to make a point, I'm not going to debate what is healthier, a glass of OJ or a Snicker's bar...they're both unhealthy for the same fundamental reasons. I think there are very few foods that are in the "absolute 100% don't eat category", It's about when, why and how much you eat/drink it. I think fruit/juice may have it's place, depending on your when, why and how much. And so do Snickers bars, if you apply that logic. Not saying you're wrong, just pointing out that you're not really saying anything. I don't mean that critically, but when someone asks if they should drink juice, the answer should generally be no, just as it with Snickers bars. Yes, you can apply all sorts of qualifiers to the situation and make special exceptions and allowances, but that doesn't get at the meat of the issue. ANYTHING can be added or excluded from a diet by that logic.

...

 

[Gary Peters]

Well that's awfully presumptuous. I can tell you for a fact that I do not drink fruit juice because it is essentially sugar water, albeit with a relative pinch of redeeming value. If you can't take my word on that, well, I guess that's your problem.

I don't think you used "presumptuous" in the correct context. However, I think the manner of your responses have been. You, like many others, are so quick to go on the attack when something is said that isn't 100% optimal in your mind. I never said drinking orange juice is the OPTIMAL choice to make. I said if he enjoys drinking orange juice, it fits into his "diet" and is happy with it then I don't see a problem with having a small glass of OJ in the morning.

THEY ARE NOT OK! Not generally, anyway. Circumstances can change that, but if you think this forum in generally supports consumption of sugar-laden sports drinks and gainers, you haven't been paying much attention.

The above shows you contradicting yourself. If weight gainers and gatorade are unhealthy how can circumstances change that? They will always be "unhealthy" and sub-optimal no matter what the circumstances are. :icon_conf

What if the TS doesn't have any other source of vitamin c during the day? Would that be a circumstance where a small glass of OJ per day would be ok? I think so.

Anyway, I don't care all that much about orange juice. I rarely drink it myself, I just thought it was funny how uptight people get when someone thinks outside the nutrition label.

 

[XTrainer]

I don't think you used "presumptuous" in the correct context. However, I think the manner of your responses have been. You, like many others, are so quick to go on the attack when something is said that isn't 100% optimal in your mind. I never said drinking orange juice is the OPTIMAL choice to make. I said if he enjoys drinking orange juice, it fits into his "diet" and is happy with it then I don't see a problem with having a small glass of OJ in the morning.



The above shows you contradicting yourself. If weight gainers and gatorade are unhealthy how can circumstances change that? They will always be "unhealthy" and sub-optimal no matter what the circumstances are. :icon_conf

What if the TS doesn't have any other source of vitamin c during the day? Would that be a circumstance where a small glass of OJ per day would be ok? I think so.

Anyway, I don't care all that much about orange juice. I rarely drink it myself, I just thought it was funny how uptight people get when someone thinks outside the nutrition label.

Got on here late today, gotta go, but I'll get to this soon.

EDIT: See below

 

[domdeezy]

and how come orange juice sux but gatorade and weight gainers (full of processed carbs) are ok ???

This. and chocolate milk and fruit in general If you arent trying to lose weight a little juice is not bad for you

 

[XTrainer]

I don't think you used "presumptuous" in the correct context. Yes, I did. You're "presuming" to know the dietary habits of the posters. However, I think the manner of your responses have been. You, like many others, are so quick to go on the attack when something is said that isn't 100% optimal in your mind. "Go on the attack?" For pointing out that a habit is unhealthy/suboptimal? Please...

I never said drinking orange juice is the OPTIMAL choice to make. I said if he enjoys drinking orange juice, it fits into his "diet" and is happy with it then I don't see a problem with having a small glass of OJ in the morning. Can't you see that this is circular reasoning? "If conditions are such that OJ is OK, OJ is OK..."



The above shows you contradicting yourself. If weight gainers and gatorade are unhealthy how can circumstances change that? They will always be "unhealthy" and sub-optimal no matter what the circumstances are. :icon_conf

No, you are selectively reading the parts of my posts you want to read. There's a difference between foods that are generally healthy and foods that are generally unhealthy. PRACTICALLY ANYTHING PALATABLE (i.e. not your car keys) CAN BE JUSTIFIED FOR DIETARY EXCLUSION OR INCLUSION BASED ON CIRCUMSTANCE. ...that DOES NOT mean that all foods are OK. Some foods are generally useful, and some foods need a whole lot of external justification to warrant consumption, and even with that justification, we're still talking about a likely sub-optimal choice.



What if the TS doesn't have any other source of vitamin c during the day? Would that be a circumstance where a small glass of OJ per day would be ok? I think so.

What if he were stranded in the wilderness and orange juice was the only way to get calories and fluids? We can play with "what if" scenarios all day...they're beside the point. We don't deliberately restrict our options. Rather, we make the best of the options we have available. Can people find better options than fruit juice, for example? Well, for most of the civilized world, yes they can.

Even in the absence of options, the nature of the choice stays the same. As a simplified example...If I had to live on a desert island and the only thing available for me to consume was fruit juice, and I relied solely on that juice my calories, and I consumed enough to satisfy my hunger, I should expect the negative consequences associated with excess sugar consumption, regardless of the extenuating circumstances that forced me to subsist that way.

Likewise, on a smaller scale, whatever circumstances "force" me to cheat on my diet do not change the fact that my diet is suboptimal because of that cheating.

Anyway, I don't care all that much about orange juice. I rarely drink it myself, I just thought it was funny how uptight people get when someone thinks outside the nutrition label.

I have no idea what that's supposed to mean.

This. and chocolate milk and fruit in general If you arent trying to lose weight a little juice is not bad for you

This has been addressed

My points in RED.

 

[XTrainer]

Now, as far as my own diet, do I do things that are suboptimal? OF COURSE. I joke about my peanut butter addiction on here all the time, for example. I am also, generally speaking, opposed to heavy legume consumption, so there's an obvious contradiction there.

Are there "circumstances" with justify me eating PB? Yes, there are many reasons why I eat PB.

BUT THE KEY POINT IS--I'm not kidding myself by thinking that eating PB is "optimal" for my health. Even the best of circumstantial reasons to consume PB would not make it the BEST choice for optimal health. I eat PB for a variety of reasons-financial (college student ), convenience, deliciousness, etc., and I tighten up my diet in other areas (I don't consume other legumes, and monitor fat/calories from other sources, for example) to avoid compounding the problem. So while the negatives effects of my PB consumption are probably minimal, I don't fool myself into thinking it's optimal. I weigh the costs with the benefits and make my own choice. I accept that my consumption is probably detrimental, even if I can marginalize that detrimental effect.

That's a MUCH different approach than an "anything goes" approach to nutrition advocated by some in this thread, who are equating dietary justification with dietary optimization.

 

[Rowan11088]

I agree with XTrainer completely here. I really don't see anyone being "uptight", we're not having these conversations at the bar you know. This is a quasi-academic subforum, even if it doesn't always seem like it.

Besides, I think the majority of the original answers here were perfectly accurate and fair: TS asked whether concentrate is worse than fresh OJ, and most posts told him that in fact both are not the BEST choice, and the difference between them is negligible. I don't think anyone said "You can NEVER DRINK ORANGE JUICE AAAAAAHHHHH!!!"

 

[XTrainer]

Rowan, you mentioned something about greek yogurt and circulatory system health earlier, can you elaborate (I've never heard of such a thing and I'm a yogurt connoisseur )?

 

[Rowan11088]

Rowan, you mentioned something about greek yogurt and circulatory system health earlier, can you elaborate (I've never heard of such a thing and I'm a yogurt connoisseur )?

Oh, I didn't even mean anything like that, I was simply offering up a low carb breakfast possibility besides eggs, the idea being that large amounts of carbohydrates are detrimental to heart health. Greek yogurt has high protein and very low carbs.