How to Develop Martial Arts Hand Speed

[ssssmashing]

Um, BULLSHIT. That is unfortunate that this may have damaged you mate, but I have never heard of a boxing gym that did not use dumbells with their fighters. All pro boxers use the weights for shadow and reaches. oscar swears by them.

I have never met a physician that states its a safe practice. The weight of 16oz gloves is all the weight you should wear when you throw a punc at anywhere near full speed or power.

If you want resistance training with a punch plyometric bands are much safer.

 

[jamison]

I have never met a physician that states its a safe practice. The weight of 16oz gloves is all the weight you should wear when you throw a punc at anywhere near full speed or power.

If you want resistance training with a punch plyometric bands are much safer.

Good for you. How many Doctors have you met and specifically asked this question, and why? Regardless, I was just at the boxing hall of fame banquet eating dinner with many boxing hall of famers. Every one of them used the 2 or 5lb dumbells. Every boxing gym uses theese. Every single one. This is common boxing 101. Doctors will also tell you that running is bad for your knees. I guess all combat athletes will have to give up shadowing with weights and running then. Also, Oscar De La Hoya swears by the dumbells for handspeed. But then again, whos he?
Sounds like you better start a public campaign and tell boxing gyms across america to no longer use their dumbbells. Even females use theese. I have used them since I was a kid. Again, it's bullshit and you can tell your physician I said so.

 

[jamison]

Also, some of you may have seen the new show Fight Girls with Master Toddy. You will se all Toddys students shadowing with the dumbbells. You will See Kit Kope do the same. I just cant believe you went on here and said no one should do this. I dont know anyone whos ever been hurt from it and I speak from experience. Glad things are different at your kung fu dojo. This just shows that impressionable people on here should be carefull who they listen to.

 

[Justin Pressley]

boxing with weights doesnt make your hands fast, it may for a short time (10-15 mins) after you stop using them, but after that it doesnt really help with speed, it does help with should endurance though. Also use resistance cables, and Isomertics for speed.

 

[SnowBlynd]

I wouldn't use Master Toddy as a reliable source for how to do something correctly...just sayin.

 

[philong]

You will se all Toddys students shadowing with the dumbbells. You will See Kit Kope do the same. I just cant believe you went on here and said no one should do this. I dont know anyone whos ever been hurt from it and I speak from experience. This just shows that impressionable people on here should be carefull who they listen to.

For years traditional "expertise" advocated the hurdlers stretch before excersize physiologists acsertained it was harmful and modified it. Leg extensions were once considered one of the main building blocks of strong legs until it was determined that the shear forces could damage the knees and squats were much better...... Just because something has always been done a particular way does not mean it is correct. Just because your opinion and experience is that it is correct does not make that a fact.
A logical extrapolation would dictate that trying to stop the momentum of weights could possibly cause a hyperextension of the musculature & ligature of the limb. This possibility would be exacerbated by heavier weights as opposed to lighter ones and would be virtually non existent (though still within the realm of possibility) with no weights.
I agree whole heartedly with your final statement and I mean no disrespect but unless you are a qualified individual your statements are conjecture. Instead of hyperbole and conjecture perhaps it would be best to consult a qualified exercise physiologist.

 

[jamison]

For years traditional "expertise" advocated the hurdlers stretch before excersize physiologists acsertained it was harmful and modified it. Leg extensions were once considered one of the main building blocks of strong legs until it was determined that the shear forces could damage the knees and squats were much better...... Just because something has always been done a particular way does not mean it is correct. Just because your opinion and experience is that it is correct does not make that a fact.
A logical extrapolation would dictate that trying to stop the momentum of weights could possibly cause a hyperextension of the musculature & ligature of the limb. This possibility would be exacerbated by heavier weights as opposed to lighter ones and would be virtually non existent (though still within the realm of possibility) with no weights.
I agree whole heartedly with your final statement and I mean no disrespect but unless you are a qualified individual your statements are conjecture. Instead of hyperbole and conjecture perhaps it would be best to consult a qualified exercise physiologist.

Learn to read and comprehend before you quote someone. Nowhere in my post did it say it was correct because it has always been. Rather, it said that it has always been, and it has been succesfull and never detrimental. There is no established history of this hurting fighters. The fact that almost every Boxing trainer, every boxer and many mma fighters swear by it should say something to the couch potatoes and mcdojo warriors on here though. Its obvious many on here have not trained in boxing and probably lack mma training as well. Yet theese people will jump off their ass to give advice.

 

[Extremesyko420]

Its good to have good handspeed but its better to have quick reflexes and to know exactly how your opponent strikes and carries their hands. Side to side movement and knowing how to back up and box for mma is more important than hand speed. The problem with most quick combinations is you have to set them up, and be ready to defend yourself from a takedown and a strike at the sametime, and sometimes if you miss or get very little you have wasted a good amount of energy.

 

[philong]

Learn to read and comprehend before you quote someone. Nowhere in my post did it say it was correct because it has always been. Rather, it said that it has always been, and it has been succesfull and never detrimental. There is no established history of this hurting fighters.

Since you are trying to pass yourself off as an authority I will now ask for your credentials to back up your statements.................
Your OPINION is NOT a fact and unless you can provide some corraborating data from a reliable source (remember the exercise physiologist I recommended you conferring with) your OPINION is worthless in a rational discussion of FACTS.
Your last statement here is wrong, sssmashing referred to messing up his shoulders using weights as you are advocating. This would then establish a "history" per your statement thereby proving your assumption incorrect.
Shall I quote you some more???????
"Um, BULLSHIT." - This was your response to ssssmashing when he warned about the dangers of injury when shadow boxing with weights. This would be an inferrence that it was correct which is a direct contradiction to your statement in this post. Which one is it??????????? Make up your mind.
"As for shadow boxing with the dumbells. EVERYONE should be doing this, it boxing 101." (sic) "This is the best exersize for building up your shoulders and hand speed." - So here you're saying it is NOT correct??? That's your claim in your most recent post but your earlier ones contradict this claim. Perhaps you should work on articulating better. (BTW- perhaps you should also confer with a personal trainer. Shadow boxing with weights is NOT the best way to build up your shoulders, that would be Lat Raises and OH Presses)
"Again, it's bullshit and you can tell your physician I said so." - ????I'm having a hard time seeing where these quotes from you agree with your statement in this post that "Nowhere in my post did I say it was correct...."
I will again ask for your credentials establishing you as an expert in the field of exersize physiology. What degree do you hold?? Where did you go to school? Since you are trying to pass off your posts as established fact I would like some corraborating evidence from a reputable source, sorry but the word of an internet "expert" isn't god enough for me.
I will close with another quote from you, one which I agree with completely-
"That just shows that impressionable people on here should be careful who they listen to."

 

[jamison]

Since you are trying to pass yourself off as an authority I will now ask for your credentials to back up your statements.................
Your OPINION is NOT a fact and unless you can provide some corraborating data from a reliable source (remember the exercise physiologist I recommended you conferring with) your OPINION is worthless in a rational discussion of FACTS.
Your last statement here is wrong, sssmashing referred to messing up his shoulders using weights as you are advocating. This would then establish a "history" per your statement thereby proving your assumption incorrect.
Shall I quote you some more???????
"Um, BULLSHIT." - This was your response to ssssmashing when he warned about the dangers of injury when shadow boxing with weights. This would be an inferrence that it was correct which is a direct contradiction to your statement in this post. Which one is it??????????? Make up your mind.
"As for shadow boxing with the dumbells. EVERYONE should be doing this, it boxing 101." (sic) "This is the best exersize for building up your shoulders and hand speed." - So here you're saying it is NOT correct??? That's your claim in your most recent post but your earlier ones contradict this claim. Perhaps you should work on articulating better. (BTW- perhaps you should also confer with a personal trainer. Shadow boxing with weights is NOT the best way to build up your shoulders, that would be Lat Raises and OH Presses)
"Again, it's bullshit and you can tell your physician I said so." - ????I'm having a hard time seeing where these quotes from you agree with your statement in this post that "Nowhere in my post did I say it was correct...."
I will again ask for your credentials establishing you as an expert in the field of exersize physiology. What degree do you hold?? Where did you go to school? Since you are trying to pass off your posts as established fact I would like some corraborating evidence from a reputable source, sorry but the word of an internet "expert" isn't god enough for me.
I will close with another quote from you, one which I agree with completely-
"That just shows that impressionable people on here should be careful who they listen to."

Are you his mcdojo buddy? There's a quote button, use it. As for my credentials and my degree, you are comical. Read what I said. Every boxing gym uses dumbbells for shadowboxing. It is your buddy that comes on and says it is no longer safe to do so. he is the one that needs to back it up, jackass. I have used dumbbells for shadowboxing for 15 years. I have never had a problem nor do I know of anyone that has, but of course I already stated this. If you're gonna come on and alarm everyone that shadowboxing with dumbbells is unsafe, you should have some prooef to counter the history. like I said, it's bullshit. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say you never been in a boxing gym. This thread is is overdone now. Everyone trains with dumbbells. Many pros swear by them. Your buddy does not. neat. End thread.

 

[philong]

Are you his mcdojo buddy? There's a quote button, use it. As for my credentials and my degree, you are comical. Read what I said. Every boxing gym uses dumbbells for shadowboxing. It is your buddy that comes on and says it is no longer safe to do so. he is the one that needs to back it up, jackass. I have used dumbbells for shadowboxing for 15 years. I have never had a problem nor do I know of anyone that has, but of course I already stated this. If you're gonna come on and alarm everyone that shadowboxing with dumbbells is unsafe, you should have some prooef to counter the history. like I said, it's bullshit. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say you never been in a boxing gym. This thread is is overdone now. Everyone trains with dumbbells. Many pros swear by them. Your buddy does not. neat. End thread.

I quoted you quite succinctly, sorry if you have a problem following along. I read what you said & your quotes are directly contradictory , I merely want you to clarify which one of your quotes are correct and which ones are (to quote you again) "bullshit". I don't know sssmashing any more than I know you. YOU are claiming that it is safe and trying to pass yourself off as an authority on the matter. I asked for corraborating documentation and verification of your credentials establishing your expertise in this area. I take by your combative demeanor that you lack the credentials and you're trying to deflect the topic away from this fact. Your posts are then relegated to assumption, hyperbole & conjecture. Unfortunately I live in the realm of reality where factual data is required. Here's a few of FACTS for you.
1) too much force pulling on your joints WILL cause hyperextension of the musculature & ligature of the limb.
2) too much momentum from excess weights WILL cause the scenario in FACT #1
3) the amount of weight and speed needed to cause FACT #2 will vary by individual
Please feel free to find ANY reputable data to disprove these facts...........................
None of this takes into account the original topic of the thread which was handspeed. What are you trying to develop with the weights? The weights will develop slow twitch muscle fibers and aerobic capacity. Unfortunately these are not what are needed for hand speed, that would be the fast twitch muscle fibers and anaerobic capacity. But then I'm sure you were already aware of that.
I am not trying to pass myself off as an authority on anything, I am merely asking you to back up your (contradictory) statements. I will again remind you that just because something has always been done a certain way doesn't mean that it is correct (otherwise we'd all be studying TMA's and bickering about which one was superior).
The reason you desire for the thread to end is because you made an incorrect statement and got called to back it up. You tried to pass yourself off as an authority on the subject and were incapable of providing verifiable documentation when I requested it.
Again, I will quote you-
"That just shows that impressionable people on here should be careful who they listen to."

 

[jamison]

I quoted you quite succinctly, sorry if you have a problem following along. I read what you said & your quotes are directly contradictory , I merely want you to clarify which one of your quotes are correct and which ones are (to quote you again) "bullshit". I don't know sssmashing any more than I know you. YOU are claiming that it is safe and trying to pass yourself off as an authority on the matter. I asked for corraborating documentation and verification of your credentials establishing your expertise in this area. I take by your combative demeanor that you lack the credentials and you're trying to deflect the topic away from this fact. Your posts are then relegated to assumption, hyperbole & conjecture. Unfortunately I live in the realm of reality where factual data is required. Here's a few of FACTS for you.
1) too much force pulling on your joints WILL cause hyperextension of the musculature & ligature of the limb.
2) too much momentum from excess weights WILL cause the scenario in FACT #1
3) the amount of weight and speed needed to cause FACT #2 will vary by individual
Please feel free to find ANY reputable data to disprove these facts...........................
None of this takes into account the original topic of the thread which was handspeed. What are you trying to develop with the weights? The weights will develop slow twitch muscle fibers and aerobic capacity. Unfortunately these are not what are needed for hand speed, that would be the fast twitch muscle fibers and anaerobic capacity. But then I'm sure you were already aware of that.
I am not trying to pass myself off as an authority on anything, I am merely asking you to back up your (contradictory) statements. I will again remind you that just because something has always been done a certain way doesn't mean that it is correct (otherwise we'd all be studying TMA's and bickering about which one was superior).
The reason you desire for the thread to end is because you made an incorrect statement and got called to back it up. You tried to pass yourself off as an authority on the subject and were incapable of providing verifiable documentation when I requested it.
Again, I will quote you-
"That just shows that impressionable people on here should be careful who they listen to."

Aaron I know you're new here, but let me explain something to you, this is a COMBAT forum. Why the hell would I need a "credentials" to say everyone shadowboxes with dumbbells and I know of no one getting injured? Why would I need "credentials" to say explain that I personally have used theese for many years with no injury? Would you go into an mma gym or boxing gym and tell people to stop shadow boxing with dumbbells unless they can show you "credentials"?
The facts are that shadowboxing with dumbbells is extremely common. If you disagree with this then say so, untill otherwise, stfu with your corny ass "credential" talk. Go into a boxing gym and ask for their credentials to use 2lb dumbbells. Hell, you mise well go into an aerobics class and tell the woman they need to stop shadowing with dumbbells. Dumbass. This is the last I post on this thread. My point remains this. It is quite common to shadow with dumbbells. I have never been injured doing so and know not of anyone who has. Many of the top fighters you root for use them as well. Perhaps you should stick with kung fu where things are different.
This is my last post in this thread. I'm tired of repeating myself. No that does not mean that I got called on something. Dont try and play intenet bully here and stop saying I passed myself off as an "authority". My points are very clear. If your so afraid your shoulders will be ruined using dumbbells then dont do them. If you want to continue this via pm rather than taking up the forum, pm me with YOUR "credentials", dumbass.

 

[vu]

Um...so when we talk "shadowboxing with dumbells" are we talking like...not going full-force/full-speed or really kinda "focusing on technique" and going like...60% speed or something...? Or straight up going all-out and punching full-force?

B/c I'm reading y'alls argument here and both make sense...sometimes empirical evidence (as seen in the many many generations of boxing gyms using dumbells) is good enough for me, sometimes it's not and good hard facts from exercise physiologists will do it for me...it all depends on the situation and using common sense...

For every argument there's plenty of decent, rational, yet incorrect thing...for example, "Well every boxer has done it forever and it's worked fine for them" sounds pretty good, but at the same time...for a long time, people believed the world was flat, the earth was the center of the universe, and all that jazz...all b/c we used what our senses could tell us to describe a situation and nothing more...just playing the devil's advocate here...

That said, I think you guys are arguing about apples and oranges...I honestly don't think anybody in the right mind would shadowbox full-force using a dumbell that's like 5 lbs...maybe I'm wrong because I don't train at a boxing gym and I've never experienced it myself, but my own frame of reference really kinda keeps me from doing that out of fear of injury; maybe I should try it to see if it improves my hands, I dunno........although I CAN imagine lightly shadow-boxing with heavier weights to indeed build up endurance and strength and whatnot...

It's kinda like wearing a weight-vest or something...it's just another tool in the tool-box...you're not going to straight up train all the time wearing one using the logic "Oh, if I can carry around THIS much weight, imagine my performance when I'm NOT wearing it"...it's hell on your lower back, hell on your knees, hell on your ankles, etc...but there IS a time/place for properly using them...

Ok, maybe I'm just rambling here...I'm just tired of seeing this dick measuring contest...

 

[Rudy Richter]

A point I'd like to bring up: the average punch for a decent boxer takes 100 to 150ms from start of the elbow extension to the moment of impact. Now for anyone who doesn't know the average reaction time is between 200 and 270ms. For someone very fast it could be as low as 150ms. It doesn't take a genius to see that once a punch thrown by said 'decent' boxer has been initiated, no human can react in time to defend it.

So there must be other mechanisms at work when someone defends a punch in these circumstances (i.e. two good fighters). Most likely what seems to happen is that a good fighter will see the telegraph of the punch before the actual start of the punch proper. So it would seem that being able to appear fast would have more to do with reducing the telegraphing movements than speeding up the actual punch. And the converse would be true. To increase your success at defending, it would be important to spot the telegraphs. That would give the appearance of faster reactions where actually you are just seeing the movement earlier and increasing the reaction time available to defend.

Faster reactions and faster hands will definitely give you an advantage but reducing telegraph movements and the ability to read your opponent better are important points to consider.

Excellent post!

 

[kku919]

READ, in mma it IS overrated, NOT USELESS but overrated. Let me explain for you, rarely in MMA does a fighter win just base in hand speed. In boxing this is common. Hand speed is much more important in boxing than in MMA.

As for the shadowboxing with the dumbbells. EVERYONE should be doing this, it boxing 101. It improves hand speed more than any single excersise I know and every pro boxer does this, every one. This is as standard as jumping rope or road work. However, the fact you use 10lb dumbells is amazing. Most use 2 or 5 lbs. Even Holyfield uses 5lbs. I have never seen someone use above 10lbs. I prefer the 2 or the 5 and I have pretty large arms. I can't imagine punching with proper form using 10lbs weights, but if you can thats awsome. This is the best excersize for building up your shoulders and hand speed. Most people will do "reaches" first and then shadowbox. I try to daily do 10 minutes of reaches and 10 min of shadow with the weights.

What is do with the 10 pound weights i do 50 jabs 50 hooks , then i do defense for 3 minutes, i do shadowing boxing 3 minutes with 5 pound weight

 

[philong]

Aaron I know you're new here, but let me explain something to you, this is a COMBAT forum. Why the hell would I need a "credentials" to say everyone shadowboxes with dumbbells and I know of no one getting injured? Why would I need "credentials" to say explain that I personally have used theese for many years with no injury? Would you go into an mma gym or boxing gym and tell people to stop shadow boxing with dumbbells unless they can show you "credentials"?
The facts are that shadowboxing with dumbbells is extremely common. If you disagree with this then say so, untill otherwise, stfu with your corny ass "credential" talk. Go into a boxing gym and ask for their credentials to use 2lb dumbbells. Hell, you mise well go into an aerobics class and tell the woman they need to stop shadowing with dumbbells. Dumbass. This is the last I post on this thread. My point remains this. It is quite common to shadow with dumbbells. I have never been injured doing so and know not of anyone who has. Many of the top fighters you root for use them as well. Perhaps you should stick with kung fu where things are different.
This is my last post in this thread. I'm tired of repeating myself. No that does not mean that I got called on something. Dont try and play intenet bully here and stop saying I passed myself off as an "authority". My points are very clear. If your so afraid your shoulders will be ruined using dumbbells then dont do them. If you want to continue this via pm rather than taking up the forum, pm me with YOUR "credentials", dumbass.

You are not tired of repeating yourself, you are tired of being proven wrong and being incapable of backing up your (self contradicting) statements.
You need "credentials" to to back up your OPINION that shadow boxing with dumbells can cause no injuries. This is imopssible due to the laws of physics (you know, the laws that govern everything in the universe?). Check out Sir Isaac Newton (among others) and some of his writings.
For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. In order to accellerate / decellerate an object requires force. The amount of force is multiplied with the addition of mass (weights). The force would be pushing / pulling from a stationary object (your body) and this force would be transferred in varying amounts to various areas of your skeletal & muscular systems. there are several other variables involved. Mechanics- remeber the fulcrum & lever from your physics class? The longer your ulna / radius, phalanges, the supination / pronation of your hand, angle of attack, etc. Velocity- the speed of accelleration / decelleration would effect the transmission of loads to your body.
Then there's the physiological aspect. Overall condition of the subject in question. Flexibility. Strength. Strenght of tendons, ligatures.
Accellerating / decellerating an object is going to transfer stress to the individual. There is no way around this fact (unless you have managed to suspend the laws of physics that govern everything in existence). If this is enough to injure someone is open to debate due to the many variables involved. Is the chance for injury there? Without a doubt, as has been proven both physically & physiologically. Repetative stress injuries are very common and result from multiple small trauma that by themselves would do no damage but cumulatively do (think tennis elbow).
The basis of your arguement boils down to 2 items (per your posts)
1) You don't know of anyone who has been injured.
This arguement is really not worth addressing but I will quote you again (actually paraphrase since I will have to change one word, which I will put in parenthases)
"How many (Doctors) Boxers have you met and asked this specific question, and why?"
2) It's OK because that is the way it has always been done.
This arguement is also a fallacy. As I pointed out earlier training methods change as exersize physiologists learn correct ways to do things without injury (rememer the hurdlers stretch?).
Your continued attempts to drag me into your juvenile name calling only reiterate the fact that you lack any kind of corraborating data to back up your erroneous statements and are forced to degenerate into name calling in an attempt to deflect the topic.
As to your PM's I have no need to sneak around and try to resolve your issues. I am a full grown man and I have no problem facing up to anything and everything I post. If I am wrong I will readily admit it and publicly issue an apology, I have long since learned not to expect the same from internet "experts".
Also per you PM's I don't know sssmashing any better than I know you. I have no idea what style he trains in, nor do I particularly care. Your continued referrence to "McDojo's" is but another futile attempt to deflect the topic.
I will eagerly await either proof that you have managed to suspend the laws of Physics or your retraction of your claims..........................

 

[jamison]

You need "credentials" to to back up your OPINION that shadow boxing with dumbells can cause no injuries.

Aaron, you are funny. I need credentials? I have told you that I have done this for years. It is the norm in boxing so I need no "credentials. This is a combat forum where people will talk expereience. I understand from your previous posts that you are in your 50's and have a kung fu background so you would not understand. Stick to kung fu as your dr. Will probably tell you thats a safer bet at your age.

 

[jamison]

Um...so when we talk "shadowboxing with dumbells" are we talking like...not going full-force/full-speed or really kinda "focusing on technique" and going like...60% speed or something...? Or straight up going all-out and punching full-force?
.

Ok, maybe I'm just rambling here...I'm just tired of seeing this dick measuring contest...

Lol, only light shadowboxing with 2, 3, or some guys will use 5lb dumbbells. Bigger guys usually. Holyfield and Roy Jones both use the 5's. I've seen Oscar use the the 3's. oddly enough I have seen Manny using the 5 and thought that was incredible during his size.

 

[Lifes]

Shadowing with weights does slow you down. It can only make you punch faster instantly after that for awhile. It does, however trains your muscular endurance for that specific movement as your muscles and grown accustomed to punching at that intensity. And to explain why I said punching with weights will make you slower is because, well, weights does restrict your body to punch slower ( for that particular movement ) so your muscles will also be conditioned that way. You will only punch faster if you punch at your fastest ( Which you must do it without weights as it'll slow you down ) It's basic theory. Look at all those big muscular people who look like some poster at your gym and compare them to people who train for muscular endurance. They will have different bodies and their training regime will be different from each other. Why then do you think fighters do polymetrics? Polymetrics often require fast movements and that trains their muscle to react that way. So their muscles will be used to that speed. If you don't believe me, find someone you know and ask him to do polymetrics push ups while you do the standard push up and compare after 2 or 3 weeks whose punch is faster.

 

[ssssmashing]

Google it. Most of the newest studies indicate that punching with weights does nothing for speed. It makes you feel faster but it is illusory.