Has BJJ Stopped evolving for MMA?

[jack36767]

Truth be told, you may be right...but hard sparring won't change my view. If I got into the cage with an opponent of equal age, weight, and skill, well... if we hit the ground (technically, I know so little MA since I just started), I would rather we proved who was better by using wrestling and bjj ( Rather than using tItty twisters, pinching, head kicks, or hammer fists).

Some of the techniques I mentioned in parentheses are forbidden by ufc rules. I mention it because it is so easy to say one rule is good and one rule is bad... or how one rule enhances grappling while another rule degrades it.

But in my view, if you want to make grappling relevant, then you have to change the rules to make a grappling relevant.

Someone in the thread stated:
"bringing back 12-6 elbows and knees to the ground will force new and better tactics that better favor groundwork and will actually give bjj guys more options to stop and hurt wrestlers."

If that's the case, we might also allow pinching because that too will force better groundwork. And while we're at it, we can allow a fighter to grab the cheek by inserting a finger inside the mouth and just tearing at that cheek because that will force new tactics, Yada yada. Then where does it stop? Bring back stompping.

Or, allow only certain blows when on the ground and that makes grappling more relevant. I say grappling, but I really mean bjj.

I am in the minority.

-T

You wanted a reason why mine or others opinion is worth more...you may have watched a lot of fights...your literally just started training...so those opinions are without a complete understanding

 

[T-Bone]

You wanted a reason why mine or others opinion is worth more...you may have watched a lot of fights...your literally just started training...so those opinions are without a complete understanding

Fair point.

-T

 

[AnotherOldGuy]

I think most people missed the point of this thread.

Everyone is training BJJ and neutralising each other? Who is taking BJJ in the MMA context and pushing past the point where guys are neutralising it? Not that many.

In just about every established sport (ie something which has been around for a generation or more), defense learns to neutralize offense. Its true in pure grappling (everything from wrestling to judo to BJJ to sambo have introduced rules to reduce stalling, because two world class grapplers can successfully shut each other down 99% of the time without such rules). Its true in pure striking (boxing has gone through a number of rule changes to force combat, and I suspect the same is true of kick boxing).

Its true in American football (and even after many iterations of rules the last Superbowl was domination by defense). Its true in hockey (again a lot of rule changes to increase scoring). Its true in what most of the world calls football (soccer); which hasn't changed the rules and has almost no scoring even between mismatched sides. Its true in baseball (lower pitcher's mound helped a bit for a short time but scores are down. It's true in basketball (again rule changes, or simply not calling some transgressions like traveling were introduced to increase offense).

What's happening to BJJ in MMA is that everyone does it, so as soon as someone pushes the context, another BJJ'er finds a way to neutralize it. As the saying goes, offense sells tickets, defense wins games.

Its a sport. If there were no rules everyone would have guns and knives in there (humans are weapons fighters, we'd still be lion food if we fought primarily unarmed). Sports have arbitrary rules, and are always being tweaked to make the sports more fun and more entertaining. The problem for the UFC and other MMA organizations is that unlike the NHL, NFL, MLB, NBA etc, they don't get to set the rules because prize fighting rules are set by the government.

 

[BrainBar]

I think it's evolved beyond MMA honestly. BJJ guys, imo, no longer need to prove themselves via MMA like the Gracies originally did. Events like Metamoris are booming and BJJ is exploding in popularity.

MMA on the other hand has evolved to become more of a kickboxing event since striking is so valued by promotions wanting to sell PPVs. And....the WWF aspect is creeping in.

MMA has however caused BJJ to accept strength and conditioning and wrestling as crucial elements of ground fighting. The same way BJJ revolutionized MMA....wrestling revolutionized BJJ a bit because it's undeniable that a good wrestler with great S&C can compete a belt level up just because of those abilities. BJJ guys who compete have adapt to that.


But I think BJJ has evolved more due to other ground fighting arts than it has for MMA. It still remains true that an high level grappler can compete in MMA successfully with mediocre striking skills.....but an elite striker with mediocre grappling skills will struggle most times unless facing a similar opponent with no ground skills.

If you had 10 points to spread amongst any arts to prep for MMA it would be:
4- wrestling
4- BJJ
2- Boxing or Thai

 

[BrainBar]

Guys are learning jiu jitsu to stop jiu jitsu. Makes JJ seem pretty relevant to me

Yep. Had one of our young and...um...uninformed...aspiring amateur MMA fighters in the gym say "Jiu-jitsu is useless in a fight, all you gotta do is learn it and then you'll never get tapped".

Hahah....yeah....sort of. Given...he rarely attends BJJ class. And when he spars with our good BJJ guys he seems to always get hurt upon the takedown or always gets his "eye poked" when he's in their guard. So haven't gotten to see him neutralize BJJ yet.

 

[jack36767]

Yep. Had one of our young and...um...uninformed...aspiring amateur MMA fighters in the gym say "Jiu-jitsu is useless in a fight, all you gotta do is learn it and then you'll never get tapped".

Hahah....yeah....sort of. Given...he rarely attends BJJ class. And when he spars with our good BJJ guys he seems to always get hurt upon the takedown or always gets his "eye poked" when he's in their guard. So haven't gotten to see him neutralize BJJ yet.

I hate those kind of guys

 

[Uchi Mata]

Yep. Had one of our young and...um...uninformed...aspiring amateur MMA fighters in the gym say "Jiu-jitsu is useless in a fight, all you gotta do is learn it and then you'll never get tapped".

Hahah....yeah....sort of. Given...he rarely attends BJJ class. And when he spars with our good BJJ guys he seems to always get hurt upon the takedown or always gets his "eye poked" when he's in their guard. So haven't gotten to see him neutralize BJJ yet.

Ugh. The 'this is when I'd be punching you bro' ultra-amateur MMA fighter.

 

[DoctorTaco]

Yep. Had one of our young and...um...uninformed...aspiring amateur MMA fighters in the gym say "Jiu-jitsu is useless in a fight, all you gotta do is learn it and then you'll never get tapped".

Hahah....yeah....sort of. Given...he rarely attends BJJ class. And when he spars with our good BJJ guys he seems to always get hurt upon the takedown or always gets his "eye poked" when he's in their guard. So haven't gotten to see him neutralize BJJ yet.

Sounds like a wrestler to me. I was training a promising Mma guy (as his striking coach) who was 3-1 with a strong wrestling pedigree. Refused to learn jits because wrestling is better and then lost his next 4 fights by submission. You can't make this stuff up.

 

[AnotherOldGuy]

I
If you had 10 points to spread amongst any arts to prep for MMA it would be:
4- wrestling
4- BJJ
2- Boxing or Thai

I wonder what the actual distribution is among recent and current champions. If you mean points since they were born, I'd guess most have 7 points in one style (typically BJJ or wrestling, though a few have or had karate (GSP, Liddell, Machida), sambo/judo (Fedor, Rousey), and then the remaining 3 in filling up the holes from there.

If you mean how they distribute their points once they start MMA, most are probably evenly split between grappling and striking. I doubt there are many who do a 8/2 split for grappling over striking (or vice-versa).

The problem is that at higher levels of MMA, everyone is good at defending (and defending against subs, against takedowns, and against strikes). If you have a hole in any of them, your opponent will neutralize your strength (by just defending against it) and move it to wherever you're weak (unless you're lucky enough to fight Kampman, who decided to strike against Daley and grapple with Shields - that must of made his coach pull his hair out).

 

[Uchi Mata]

Sounds like a wrestler to me. I was training a promising Mma guy (as his striking coach) who was 3-1 with a strong wrestling pedigree. Refused to learn jits because wrestling is better and then lost his next 4 fights by submission. You can't make this stuff up.

Some wrestlers are too stupid to learn BJJ, and some BJJ guys are too stupid to learn wrestling. Is normal.

 

[jack36767]

Sounds like a wrestler to me. I was training a promising Mma guy (as his striking coach) who was 3-1 with a strong wrestling pedigree. Refused to learn jits because wrestling is better and then lost his next 4 fights by submission. You can't make this stuff up.

That's not all wrestlers, please don't let a bad experience lead to judging all of us lol

 

[dmwalking]

Wow, I forgot about this thread. I'll try to reply to as much as I can. These are my replies to the first page.

Absolutely. It's not until now we have known that the name of the game is cross training. Everyone was shocked when they found out that BJJ had no stand-up game at all!


I remember that time too, but I actually think it was more than 50% of BJJ black belts who wanted to do MMA. I think it was more like 150%! It's true. It was back when BJJ was still relevant. And you're right, Feijao having a useless guard just proves it. It really is a supplemental, and not essential element of MMA. I mean, nobody gets caught in submissions anymore because it's so easy to defend!
I'm sure that if you ask UFC competitors who have Black belts like Maia, Jacare, Werdum, Yoel Romero, Big Nog, Weidman, Jake Shields, Palhares, Ryan Hall, Dos Anjoes, de Oliveria, Tanquinho, Gilbert Burns, Bibano Fernandens, Shinya Aoki, Chris Holdsworth, Nate Diaz, Joe Lauzon, Wilson Reis, Davi Ramos, Anderson Silva, Wanderlei, GSP, Matt Serra and BJ Penn, they will all tell you that BJJ was a waste of time and that they should just have watched some youtube videos. anybody can learn some bjj escapes easily.

All these losers never got anywhere by using their BJJ. That to me proves that BJJ is irrelevant in modern MMA.


This is true. BJJ sports guys are scissoring each other and butt scooting. the fact that they don't do that in MMA proves that BJJ doesn't work in MMA anymore.


Ohh yeah, boxing is a much better art. I think BJJ is completely useless, and anybody who says otherwise should take another look at Feijaos guard. You can always look at the causation by looking at the correlation. THAT IS SCIENCE.
the truth of the matter is that BJJ is not effective, and that is why it is not evolving. I heard someone say that it doesn't change that much, just like striking is not changing so much and what that really tells us is that the basics in both grappling and striking are important! HAHAHHA.. That is the dumbest thing I have ever heard. everyone who watches UFC knows that they throw new punches and kicks in every fight and that is great because it means it is evolving. like pokemon, and not like Feijaos guard. the BJJ community really screwed up when they put all of their hopes behind feijaos guard, haha.



There is one thing BJJ can do to be more effective for MMA- remove all BJJ, and replace it with aikido logs and exercises from wii fitness. it still wont be great but it will be more useful than BJJ currently is for MMA. Boxing and wrestling is the way to go. just youtube submission defence and throw your black belt in the trash. its only good for butt scooting and scissoring your sensei. I remember a time when submissions worked, but now a days its just wrestling submissions and TKOs. nobody ever gets submitted. ohh BJJ you're so irrelevant!

Sarcasm works better when your points are irrefutable. And usually, when a person's point is irrefutable, they don't need sarcasm. Not appreciated. And I'm not gonna stoop to your level. Not in the mood to be petty. But I will be condescending. To be fair, you earned it.

Anyhow, let's start off by getting rid of the words you're trying to put in my mouth. I never said BJJ was useless. Get that straight. I've used it in real life. It works. And now....

I was simply pointing out the irony that BJJ made a name for itself by exposing the holes in other traditional martial arts only for BJJ to get exposed and turn more into a traditional martial art. I was making a point that BJJ is incomplete.

Great list of competitors. By the way, last I checked, Yoel is not a BJJ blackbelt. The rest of them are all great fighters that I love to watch and cheer for. But there's a reason why Werdum and RDA went to Kings. BJJ incomplete. I will say that guys like Werdum, Maia, RDA, and Ryan Hall are definitely more forward thinking as far as evolving their BJJ for MMA. As they succeed, we'll see more guys adopting their techniques. But in the mean time, you still see most of the same old techniques and typical mistakes.

If that's the conclusion you arrived at from anything I said, you really need some schooling. The actual point is that butt flopping is something that evolved from sport BJJ. Much of BJJ's evolution is limited exclusively to sport BJJ. You can't worm guard a guy in the cage. The additional point is that we see BJJ evolving for sport, but we don't see an evolution in MMA. I hope you can wrap your mind around that.

Goodness. Your ability to exercise logic is terrible. I'll help you out again. Strikers have had to evolve their striking to MMA. Wrestling has evolved for MMA. Yes, even their basics. Stance. Footwork. Dealing with the larger area of the cage. Dealing with the cage blocking your takedowns. They've evolved. But as far as BJJ goes, I see limited adaptation. And I almost feel like BJJ guys don't even care. As far as boxing being better, that's a matter of opinion. But I will say that I believe it's more practical. A good boxer can handle an assailant without having to go to the ground or tie up. But that's another debate.

And the last part is too stupid to even reply to. Putting words in someone's mouth and then sarcastically arguing against points that were never made is not the way to win a debate. To take a page from Chael Sonnen, gentle giant, you absolutely suck.

Ding ding ding.

Jiujitsu does not seem to decide many fights because it is so important that everyone trains it so extensively.

The problem that I see here is assuming everyone trains it extensively. Ryan Bader sure didn't look like he trained BJJ extensively. Feijao looked lost. I would say that jiu jitsu doesn't decide as many fights because people already know the basic attacks to defend. It's like fighting Roy Nelson. You know to expect a jab, overhand right, and an uppercut. It's kind of the same with BJJ.

TS, I think your reading to much into one fighter. Feijao has never been a guy to employ the classic BJJ philosophy or have an attacking guard.
Go watch Maia/Magny or Ortiz/Tavares to see BJJ on display both offensively and defensively.

Don't get me wrong, I know that BJJ has been, still is, and always will be effective in MMA. What I'm saying is that I can't observe much of an evolution by comparison to the other dominant martial arts. Karate guys have evolved. Wrestlers have evolved. Now we have two BJJ guys who evolved, but they mostly just closed their striking gap. Maia seems to be the only guy sticking to his BJJ as his primary weapon.

So that makes me wonder, is it because BJJ is done evolving for MMA? So instead of focusing on BJJ, they're focusing more on striking? I don't know. I don't claim to know. I just know that I don't see much evolution in BJJ for MMA.

 

[MC Paul Barman]

I've won over 500 street fights without needing this bjj stuff.

 

[dmwalking]

Page 2 replies. Much better. I appreciate the more civil responses.

Based on these stats, it looks like number of fights won by TKO/KO/Stoppage equal those won by submissions... at least for most of the weight classes.

I am assuming those submissions were BJJ submissions.

-T

The only issue I have is that these stats stop at 2013. A lot of fights have happened since then.

[
QUOTE="GalegoREB, post: 113352493, member: 250082"]http://fightnomics.com/category/blog/ufc-fight-ended-2015-graph/
"Out of 244 fights that didn’t make it to the final bell, 154 of those were due to KO, TKO, or doctor stoppage due to legally inflicted damage. That T/KO/Stoppage rate accounted for 33% of 2015 fights, up slightly from 30% in 2014.

An additional 90 times a fighter was forced to submit due to a choke or lock, or required a referee to intervene when they were no longer able to do to so. The “tap, snap, or nap” scenario played out in 19% of all UFC fights last year, exactly in line with 2014."

Not even 20% of the fights ended with submissions in 2014 and 2015.[/QUOTE]

And there we have it. I'm not so crazy after all.

I guess it depends, the biggest issue with BJJ is the cultural split you don't see in most other martial arts.

For a long time, BJJ was synonymous with MMA. However now BJJ is its very own separate style. BJJ compared to the other "big 3" (Boxing, Wrestling, Muay Thai) almost developed in reverse, in that it started off very MMA centric and then developed and adapted into a sport specific art afterwards. Contrast this to wrestling, which started off as a sport centric style which was adapted to be used in MMA.

So you get this cultural split where half the BJJ community wants to have a fighting/MMA focused style of BJJ, where as the other half wants to say fuck it and train to win BJJ competitions. So this leads to an interesting question, just who should be evolving BJJ for MMA? Should the whole community be responsible for something that only part of the community care about?

Imo the people responsible for evolving BJJ for MMA, should be the MMA community. They're the ones who would benefit from the advancements, which often have little relevance in modern sport Jiu-Jitsu. To really notice how pronounced this "cultural split" is, go on to wrestling message boards and see how many people slam Russian ties as leaving you exposed to strikes for example. The idea of slamming a guy like Floyd Mayweather for not advancing "MMA Boxing" would be ridiculous, yet similar things happen within the BJJ community all the time.

Fantastic post.

Many people say: I just want to train sport.

We still make fun of Aikido, and no blue belt that I have ever seen will not know how to slam his way out of a standing bear hug.

90% of any people, not just us, have never been in a real fight.

I do not know any person outside of the martial arts community in which I participate that is a trained fighter.

I think it's fair to mock a martial art that doesn't involve sparring. Not so fair to mock one that actually does spar. A kyokushin guy will light you up bad. Not all TMA's are useless.

When I first started BJJ in 1994, BJJ was all about learning an art that could help you in a street fight. No gloves, no rounds, no referee. MMA came afterward. In my opinion, gloves change the whole dynamic of BJJ in MMA. Without gloves, you would see a fraction of the punching you currently see. You would also see better grappling.

Interesting thought. I do remember seeing a bare knuckle vale tudo tourney streamed from Brazil. Definitely not as much punching. And they also did away with rounds. It was just one long 15 minute round. 20 minute main event. Most of the fights ended before the bell. I'm guessing it's because the BJJ guys had more time to work their game.
-T[/QUOTE]

 

[dmwalking]

1. If every MMA fighter trains something, it's relevant to MMA.
2. The rules do matter. BJJ works better with no gloves or time limits. But most of the apparent loss of effectiveness is about everyone learning it, not the rules.
3. To be a BJJ based fighter in MMA you have to have good TDs. Most pure BJJ guys don't, though the exceptions like Demian Maia prove that a BJJ centric style can still be very effective if you can reliably get guys to the mat.
4. Sport BJJ has developed in a different direction than MMA BJJ, but that doesn't mean MMA BJJ hasn't and isn't developing. It is. You're seeing more leg locking, more non-wrestling oriented TDs (from guys like Maia and Tony Ferguson, for instance), and a greater synthesis of BJJ and wrestling.

In some ways old school BJJ was actually very lazy, in the sense that because only the Gracies and their students knew it you didn't have to work very hard physically or strategically to make it work. It was enough to put someone in your guard because they had no idea how to deal with it, and if you got their back you didn't have to worry about them getting out because they knew no escapes of submission defense. Well, now people know how to deal with old school BJJ so it doesn't work as well, you can't be as strategically lazy. Now you have to figure out how to get to positions where you can submit a knowledgeable opponent while not getting hurt, you have to know how to use your guard not only to submit but mainly to not get hurt until you can get back to a neutral position (because with punches, sorry purists, guard is an inherently inferior position and only a knowledge gap is going to let you win off your back consistently), and when you do get to a dominant position you have to know how to keep it while also doing damage and simultaneously setting up submissions or otherwise your opponent is going to get out. You also can't count on some silly Karate guy just falling into your guard or going down from a crappy single or clinch trip, you have to know how to take down other skilled wrestlers. A lot of the assumptions that made BJJ work so well in UFC 1 are completely false now.

Opportunistic BJJ doesn't work well in modern MMA because most guys are not going to screw up very badly. What you need now is BJJ oriented towards dominating from the start ala BTT/Carlson school. MMA BJJ has evolved towards better TDs and positional control oriented around striking rather than immediately submitting. In other words, it looks more like wrestling. So I guess if you're really interested in having effective BJJ for MMA get better at TDs and start worrying more if you can punch someone without being punched than if you can submit them. The days of a guard dominant, heavily submission oriented style of BJJ in MMA are done. It just doesn't work that well with rough equality of knowledge.

Great post.

Does it bother that BJJ is not as prevalent in MMA compared to striking? Nope. I prefer to see knockouts. That's why boxing is so exciting.

-T

It does bother me because I love BJJ and believe that it's better than MMA would have people believe. Also, maybe I'm missing something in boxing, but there aren't that many knockouts.

Side note, why doesn't anyone use Half Guard, like Lucas Leite style?

Because it's not in style yet. Just like the front snap kick. It was a TMA move and useless until Anderson made it famous. If you see Jon Jones use it, everyone will start using it.

MMA rules already favor grapplers. Gracies helped create some of the rules.

The rules favor wrestlers and top game players.

When you start adding strikes, you start loving knee shields in all positions. When I'm rolling MMA the only half guard I'll hang out in for more than a second is Z-guard because that knee shield allows some distance control.

I don't like knee shield. I feel like distance is the last thing you want in a fight unless you're standing up. Tim Boetch got lit up for using a knee shield. The other guy was able to reach him.

 

[dmwalking]

I feel like sport BJJ is much more useful for self defense against unarmed assault than MMA. Not fighting, but self-defense against unarmed opponents, staying on your feet to leave, backing up while hiding behind the jab, and guard work against larger, stronger, less trained people.

"I'm going to drop you, pin and strike, then break your joint while you are effectively helpless." vs. "I'm leaving and if you get in my way or trip me, I'm going to put you to sleep from the bottom."

The later isn't necessarily satisfying to the ego, but it isn't wrong.

I mean, when people train BJJ but aren't fighting MMA, do you really want them learning how to assault people better? It just isn't relevant.

I wouldn't try and choke anyone from bottom. Better to sweep. I've been slammed before. It's not good.

THIS.

BJJ is most effective on the ignorant. It becomes energy inefficient the minute you're competing with someone of even modest ability. The energy expenditure via isometric contractions and body maneuvering is not worth the effort to "Maybe" catch an opponent slipping. (And I do mean slipping.)

Striking is a more immediate and energy efficient pathway to success in the octagon than using fuel on a strategy that needs a bunch of things to go right, which doesn't often present itself.

Interesting.

you think someone with "modest" skills will be able to stop maia from grapplefucking him? Or jaca, werdum, oliveira, or any elite black belt for that matter? UFC fighters are not "modest" they are pro athletes who live to train and probably spend more time on the mats than most hobbiest black belts do.

Modest grappling skills will get your ass raped in the UFC, unless you are facing melvin mahoef type of guy.

IDK man. I think the reason why Maia tools guys is partially because other guys aren't as good at BJJ. Demian has tooled many guys with modest BJJ.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

I wouldn't try and choke anyone from bottom. Better to sweep. I've been slammed before. It's not good.




Interesting.



IDK man. I think the reason why Maia tools guys is partially because other guys aren't as good at BJJ. Demian has tooled many guys with modest BJJ.

Gunnar nelson has way above modest bjj skills, hes elite, and he really made him look like a noob. Have you ever seen some other bjj fighter tooling people left and right in MMA the way demian does, even other strikers? Besides Jaca, I personally do not remember anyone making their opponents look like total noobs on the ground.

I believe maia has developed 2 moves that are his bread and butter and it works extremelly well for mma (many other bjj fighters simple do not)

1. Single leg, on of the best in all mma.
2. Dope mount pass.
He has taken this pass to mount to the next level, it just seems impossible for his opponents to stop him.

I think maia under subgrappling terms would have much more problems with other grapplers, but his mma grappling is just on another level.

 

[TehGwarch]

Page 2 replies. Much better. I appreciate the more civil responses.

I think it's fair to mock a martial art that doesn't involve sparring. Not so fair to mock one that actually does spar. A kyokushin guy will light you up bad. Not all TMA's are useless.

OK, I'm going to be a little picky here and I hope no one takes this the wrong way...Kyokushin is not a TMA, it's an MMA.

Kyokushin = Boxing + Goju-Ryu + Shotokan + Muay Thai. and probably others. It's quite new. Lesser known offshoots of Kyokushin, Ashihara and Enshin, include Judo.

TKD is about 100 years old and they spar, I'll leave anyone to decide how traditional it is. Aikido is new but they don't spar because they'd break each other's wrists.

I had an instructor who was very good at both Kyokushin and Aikido and has a few years of BJJ. He can wrist lock people from any position and it's great for disarms. I would not recommend resisting.

Aikido is a subset of Daito Ryu, which was created for disarming sword drawing opponents or protecting ones own sword, not "catching" punches or fighting grapplers. Criticizing it's lack of ability in unarmed dueling is like saying people who run track suck at swimming.

TKD is every bit as legit as boxing, there's a boxing gym across the street from me that's loaded with soccer moms. Both boxing and TKD are incomplete on their own but good at training their specific areas when well coached.

BJJ and modern Judo would have been totally useless in feudal Japan as Aikido or Kendo in the octagon.

Every martial art is good for what it was intended and no amount of training makes you a veteran of combat.

 

[DoctorTaco]

That's not all wrestlers, please don't let a bad experience lead to judging all of us lol

I also took a 3 round beating from a phenomenal wrestler in my Mma debut. You guys are on thin ice, bub.

 

[jack36767]

I also took a 3 round beating from a phenomenal wrestler in my Mma debut. You guys are on thin ice, bub.

That is not technically his fault... lol