Has BJJ Stopped evolving for MMA?

[These Two Hands]

Guys... very inclined to take thesetwohands opinion on street fighting higher than others because he grew up in Ulster..not a diss at all. Just a place where being tough can be very important to having a decent life. Just saying

Correct me if I am wrong."thesetwohands"

It had it's moments, lol.

 

[These Two Hands]

No I didn't sell any drugs or do anything illegal.

Nothing illegal about fucking someone up who attacks you, even if you stand your ground. It's just that they sue. But I know how to handle that - deep down they know they're wrong. lol

There was a couple times arrest almost happened but I'm good at managing shit like that.

Slapped my boss around at work once for bullying me. The cops came but nobody would back him up since he's such a jerk. They had to let me go since we couldn't keep working together but I got a good reference, unemployment and worked for them later. If I waited around they would've had me in cuffs, as it went I never even spoke to the cops.

I'm not the backing down type but I make up for it by being lucky and knowing things like "always leave the scene". I also left the state until it blew over, just to be safe.

BJJ is cool, I've just never used it in a fight. I know someone who used it in a bar fight and he got sued so...

Get your money's worth I guess. haha

Hey, good for you man. Best of luck with that.

 

[jack36767]

It had it's moments, lol.

The whole Conor poppy pin controversy and his Facebook rant afterwards had me worried sectarianism was trying to come into the ufc

 

[These Two Hands]

The whole Conor poppy pin controversy and his Facebook rant afterwards had me worried sectarianism was trying to come into the ufc

I don't think McGregor gives a flying fuck about the cause one way or another, really. He's an entertaining sort, though. Quite the spectacle ha ha ha.

 

[jack36767]

I don't think McGregor gives a flying fuck about the cause one way or another, really. He's an entertaining sort, though. Quite the spectacle ha ha ha.

I agree lol, just the idiots during that whole thing were funny

 

[These Two Hands]

I agree lol, just the idiots during that whole thing were funny

Yep. For some reason it brings to mind a friend's oft repeated factoid that Graham Norton is from South Dublin, while Liam Neeson is from Antrim... Hmmm...

Anyway, enough digression. I think it is likely that there will be a pretty large leap soon in MMA Jiu Jitsu, as a lot of the phenoms and innovators in "sport BJJ" are quite young (early 20s or so) and a common them among many of them in interviews is an intent to compete in MMA at some point. It's fairly well established that what is happening presently is a lot of neutralization due to widespread familiarity and having at least some kind of base in grappling for most successful MMA competitors. Stagnation, combined with innovation, produces all kinds of things. Perhaps it won't happen, but it will be interesting to see what transpires.

 

[yetanother]

Anyway, enough digression. I think it is likely that there will be a pretty large leap soon in MMA Jiu Jitsu, as a lot of the phenoms and innovators in "sport BJJ" are quite young (early 20s or so) and a common them among many of them in interviews is an intent to compete in MMA at some point. es.

Ryan Hall has been pulling off some pretty interesting stuff recently.
It would be interesting to see how someone with both a slick modern bjj game (like Ryan has) and ample brute strength succeeds.

 

[BrainBar]

I think the round length hurts BJJ. As everyone in MMA trains BJJ now, at least for defense, it takes longer to wear an opponent down and set stuff up. Add to it the refs threatening to stand it back up....and well...it doesn't bode as well.

If I had my way....the first round would be a 20 minute round. 5 min 2nd round. For title fights a final 2 minute 3rd round. And no ref stand ups. "As real as it gets" right? If you can't get up from under a grappler....that's on you, not the ref.

 

[jack36767]

I think the round length hurts BJJ. As everyone in MMA trains BJJ now, at least for defense, it takes longer to wear an opponent down and set stuff up. Add to it the refs threatening to stand it back up....and well...it doesn't bode as well.

If I had my way....the first round would be a 20 minute round. 5 min 2nd round. For title fights a final 2 minute 3rd round. And no ref stand ups. "As real as it gets" right? If you can't get up from under a grappler....that's on you, not the ref.

Josh Barnett talked about that in regards to Askren. When you watch his fights he's working to pass and set stuff up. Barnett thought that Askrens finish rates would go way up without standups and 10 minute round

 

[Lamfadha]

OK, I'm going to be a little picky here and I hope no one takes this the wrong way...Kyokushin is not a TMA, it's an MMA.

Kyokushin = Boxing + Goju-Ryu + Shotokan + Muay Thai. and probably others. It's quite new. Lesser known offshoots of Kyokushin, Ashihara and Enshin, include Judo.

TKD is about 100 years old and they spar, I'll leave anyone to decide how traditional it is. Aikido is new but they don't spar because they'd break each other's wrists.

I had an instructor who was very good at both Kyokushin and Aikido and has a few years of BJJ. He can wrist lock people from any position and it's great for disarms. I would not recommend resisting.

Aikido is a subset of Daito Ryu, which was created for disarming sword drawing opponents or protecting ones own sword, not "catching" punches or fighting grapplers. Criticizing it's lack of ability in unarmed dueling is like saying people who run track suck at swimming.

TKD is every bit as legit as boxing, there's a boxing gym across the street from me that's loaded with soccer moms. Both boxing and TKD are incomplete on their own but good at training their specific areas when well coached.

BJJ and modern Judo would have been totally useless in feudal Japan as Aikido or Kendo in the octagon.

Every martial art is good for what it was intended and no amount of training makes you a veteran of combat.

The founder of Kyokushin was a 5th Dan in Judo and Kyokushin involves a few throws. Kudo an offshoot of Kyokushin is Kyokushin + Judo in rules that allow for everything.

People don't realise that "TMA" were scientific systems where things that didn't work were discarded and things that worked where kept. They just stagnated and became watered down by rules and safety measures.
Also don't realise that MMA was being developed everywhere over the 20th century with SAMBO in Russia , GJJ in Brazil , Kyokushin in Japan etc.

Ju Jitsu especially the Takeda system in the 1600's was complete but only taught to government officials. Daito Ryu in the 1800's which Kyokushin founder practised and had self defenses from them in Kyokushin.
Ju Jitsu had striking and guard work etc but Judo and BJJ (which is Judo) Ju Jitsu derivatives became more respected than Ju Jitsu for some reason even though Ju Jitsu was basically MMA.

It is just weird for people to shit on "TMA" when they were already where we are now in the 1800's or sooner.
Sport BJJ is starting to stagnate from what it was like Judo has, Karate has and what Wrestling has declined from with rules and safety measures holding it back.
Karate used to have sweeps, hammerfists. ground and pound elbows etc , Judo used to have strikes and advanced groundwork, Wrestling used to have subs where is all that now?
GJJ used to practice their JJ against guys that wanted to punch them they used low side kicks to close then takedown then submit that is why GJJ was effective in MMA/Vale Tudo.
They brought back training their art like a complete martial art while their competition fought a stripped down version of their art now BJJ is stripping it's martial art down.

I guess I am getting at is that MMA is Martial Arts always has been and will be they took what worked and left everything that didn't behind but then stagnated and didn't prepare their students correctly.
It can happen to anything BJJ hasn't been around long enough to hit the stagnation point especially with their guys competing in MMA to keep them from stagnating like Karate etc.

 

[AnotherOldGuy]

I think the round length hurts BJJ. As everyone in MMA trains BJJ now, at least for defense, it takes longer to wear an opponent down and set stuff up. Add to it the refs threatening to stand it back up....and well...it doesn't bode as well.

If I had my way....the first round would be a 20 minute round. 5 min 2nd round. For title fights a final 2 minute 3rd round. And no ref stand ups. "As real as it gets" right? If you can't get up from under a grappler....that's on you, not the ref.

I agree. On the other hand, having a cage or ring to limit movement definitely helps grapplers, making takedowns much easier because the striker (especially a tall one) can't just keep throwing fading punches and kicks from a distance to wear down the grappler.

It's a sport, there's always going to be trade-offs for entertainment value. Standups and quick rounds help strikers in the name of entertainment. Rings/cages/boundaries of any kind helps grapplers in the name of entertainment (ie who'd watch if they fought on a football field).

 

[TehGwarch]

The current state of BJJ in MMA is just shitty.

Most fighters don't know basic things, I don't know who promoted them to whatever belt they are but most are blue belts at best.

Punch block series would really help their guard, they don't know how to trap the arms to keep from getting punched and get angles to setup subs, what to do in half guard, etc.

Put your feet on the guys hips, shove him away and stand up if you are not a guard player. What do they do? Wait until the guy dives on top of them lock the guard so they have no mobility and flail helplessly.

Stand up against the cage is really bad, too many overhooks. Get the underhook and hip throw him, forget this wrestling shit. You see a guy with a perfect opening for an underhook but instead he reaches over the guys back, then he goes down. Shocking.

They don't know how to throw from the clinch, no upper body throws, just dive for the legs. You see openings for ogoshi everywhere but they don't know it. All those years to learn 1 takedown.

Most fighters are useless in the clinch, bad off their backs and can't pass guard. They stink.

 

[jack36767]

The current state of BJJ in MMA is just shitty.

Most fighters don't know basic things, I don't know who promoted them to whatever belt they are but most are blue belts at best.

Punch block series would really help their guard, they don't know how to trap the arms to keep from getting punched and get angles to setup subs, what to do in half guard, etc.

Put your feet on the guys hips, shove him away and stand up if you are not a guard player. What do they do? Wait until the guy dives on top of them lock the guard so they have no mobility and flail helplessly.

Stand up against the cage is really bad, too many overhooks. Get the underhook and hip throw him, forget this wrestling shit. You see a guy with a perfect opening for an underhook but instead he reaches over the guys back, then he goes down. Shocking.

They don't know how to throw from the clinch, no upper body throws, just dive for the legs. You see openings for ogoshi everywhere but they don't know it. All those years to learn 1 takedown.

Most fighters are useless in the clinch, bad off their backs and can't pass guard. They stink.

Plenty of wrestlers understand Overhooks...and hip tosses and throws...not as easy as one would think with the sweat and cut grease acting to make everything slippery

 

[BJJ_Rage]

The current state of BJJ in MMA is just shitty.

Most fighters don't know basic things, I don't know who promoted them to whatever belt they are but most are blue belts at best.

Punch block series would really help their guard, they don't know how to trap the arms to keep from getting punched and get angles to setup subs, what to do in half guard, etc.

Put your feet on the guys hips, shove him away and stand up if you are not a guard player. What do they do? Wait until the guy dives on top of them lock the guard so they have no mobility and flail helplessly.

Stand up against the cage is really bad, too many overhooks. Get the underhook and hip throw him, forget this wrestling shit. You see a guy with a perfect opening for an underhook but instead he reaches over the guys back, then he goes down. Shocking.

They don't know how to throw from the clinch, no upper body throws, just dive for the legs. You see openings for ogoshi everywhere but they don't know it. All those years to learn 1 takedown.

Most fighters are useless in the clinch, bad off their backs and can't pass guard. They stink.

unless you are talking about amateur mma, are you fucking insane?

the clinch is probably one of the most drille positions in mma training, pro mma fighters train with elite instructors, you think they dont know clinch work? how many ufc fights do you have? or how many ufc fighters do you train? if you do not, may be you should join a gym and teach them a few things, get some ufc titles for your students and make some money training fighters.

by the way, whats your belt and who do you train under? the way you talk, it seems you are at least a bb, and I would venture to say a very succesful competitor, am I right?

 

[Gentle Giant]

Another multi-quote novelist.

Just to make this clear...I do this in my spare time.

Guess there's only 1 thing to settle this - put shoes on the fighters, fight with concrete floor and walls and allow everything.

Didn't think so.

Anyhow, let's start off by getting rid of the words you're trying to put in my mouth. I never said BJJ was useless. Get that straight. I've used it in real life. It works. And now....

I was simply pointing out the irony that BJJ made a name for itself by exposing the holes in other traditional martial arts only for BJJ to get exposed and turn more into a traditional martial art. I was making a point that BJJ is incomplete.

You were instigating a rather pathetic strawman with wishy washy rose tinted BS regarding how BJJ was then versus how it is now. Completely idiotic and clueless about the diverse games of many grapplers which encompassed a lot more than the butt scooting semantic drivel you're trying to drive as the status quo.

If that's the conclusion you arrived at from anything I said, you really need some schooling. The actual point is that butt flopping is something that evolved from sport BJJ. Much of BJJ's evolution is limited exclusively to sport BJJ. You can't worm guard a guy in the cage. The additional point is that we see BJJ evolving for sport, but we don't see an evolution in MMA. I hope you can wrap your mind around that.

I can wrap my head around that it's a useless red herring you're proposing. "much of BJJs evolution" ... Keenan, Miyao and their ilk is just one part of the game. One that is popular right now. But it is pathetic (on your part) to drive some idiotic rhetoric that, that style is what dominates all of BJJ - even in the competition scene. In the nogi, the ADCC, in 10th planet, the leg lockers expert coming out of Danaher.
You're being ignorant and insulting as fuck as to try and jam one aspect onto everyone.

Furthermore, even if you were right, and you aren't- It wouldn't prove shit. The fact that you're developing situational new techniques for various competitions says noting about the solid foundation of core BJJ working for MMA. You're piledriving causation = correlation bullshit because you get the idea that if BJJ is not reinvented for MMA at the same pace as it is for sports BJJ something is wrong. It's convenient for you because you get to ignore many of the competitors who have great success at the heighest levels who don't rely on worm guards. Cyborg, Buchecha, Davi Ramos, Kron, Rodolfo, Galvao, Jacare and so forth. All winners of heighest level of competition.
Plus you're ignoring Eddie Bravos systems which is LITERALLY taking BJJ in a completely different direction as well, and made for MMA.

Goodness. Your ability to exercise logic is terrible. I'll help you out again. Strikers have had to evolve their striking to MMA. Wrestling has evolved for MMA. Yes, even their basics. Stance. Footwork. Dealing with the larger area of the cage. Dealing with the cage blocking your takedowns. They've evolved. But as far as BJJ goes, I see limited adaptation. And I almost feel like BJJ guys don't even care. As far as boxing being better, that's a matter of opinion. But I will say that I believe it's more practical. A good boxer can handle an assailant without having to go to the ground or tie up. But that's another debate.

The point went completely over your ignorant head. You're arguing that BJJ is in problems because it is evolving for sports BJJ and not MMA (which is bullshit). Now you're painting adaptation- Wrestling and strikers adapting for MMA as an argument?

The point was that strikers and wrestlers are not inventing new moves, new ways to kick and punch you have never seen before, and that the idea that they don't somehow is a problem. Because you seem to think that something is wrong with BJJ when it doesn't reinvent the wheel all the time.


The whole point is that there is a solid foundation of Wrestling, striking, BJJ, and Judo that works. and when you core fundamentals work, you cannot swap them over. I'm pointing out to you that saying BJJ is in problems because its not evolving for MMA, is beyond fucking stupid, because it's already defactor essential for all strikers and wrestlers to learn it, and the same goes for BJJ guys who also need to learn striking and wrestling.
You apply a ignorant logic on BJJ but goes into defeatism when refusing to apply the same illogical guidelines on striking and boxing, and that's what is annoying AF about your entire sthick.

And the last part is too stupid to even reply to. Putting words in someone's mouth and then sarcastically arguing against points that were never made is not the way to win a debate. To take a page from Chael Sonnen, gentle giant, you absolutely suck.

Here is the bile you wrote:

So all of this leads me to ask, has BJJ stopped evolving for MMA? Is this it? BJJ has reached it's maximum potential as a martial art in MMA? There is nothing else that can be done to improve its effectiveness? It really makes me wonder if BJJ really is the ultimate martial art or if it really is more of a back up plan.

I almost feel like boxing would be a better martial art to learn.

Screw your loaded question clickbait bullshit. You deserve to be called out for this you troll.

 

[jack36767]

You were instigating a rather pathetic strawman with wishy washy rose tinted BS regarding how BJJ was then versus how it is now. Completely idiotic and clueless about the diverse games of many grapplers which encompassed a lot more than the butt scooting semantic drivel you're trying to drive as the status quo.







I can wrap my head around that it's a useless red herring you're proposing. "much of BJJs evolution" ... Keenan, Miyao and their ilk is just one part of the game. One that is popular right now. But it is pathetic (on your part) to drive some idiotic rhetoric that, that style is what dominates all of BJJ - even in the competition scene. In the nogi, the ADCC, in 10th planet, the leg lockers expert coming out of Danaher.
You're being ignorant and insulting as fuck as to try and jam one aspect onto everyone.

Furthermore, even if you were right, and you aren't- It wouldn't prove shit. The fact that you're developing situational new techniques for various competitions says noting about the solid foundation of core BJJ working for MMA. You're piledriving causation = correlation bullshit because you get the idea that if BJJ is not reinvented for MMA at the same pace as it is for sports BJJ something is wrong. It's convenient for you because you get to ignore many of the competitors who have great success at the heighest levels who don't rely on worm guards. Cyborg, Buchecha, Davi Ramos, Kron, Rodolfo, Galvao, Jacare and so forth. All winners of heighest level of competition.
Plus you're ignoring Eddie Bravos systems which is LITERALLY taking BJJ in a completely different direction as well, and made for MMA.







The point went completely over your ignorant head. You're arguing that BJJ is in problems because it is evolving for sports BJJ and not MMA (which is bullshit). Now you're painting adaptation- Wrestling and strikers adapting for MMA as an argument?

The point was that strikers and wrestlers are not inventing new moves, new ways to kick and punch you have never seen before, and that the idea that they don't somehow is a problem. Because you seem to think that something is wrong with BJJ when it doesn't reinvent the wheel all the time.


The whole point is that there is a solid foundation of Wrestling, striking, BJJ, and Judo that works. and when you core fundamentals work, you cannot swap them over. I'm pointing out to you that saying BJJ is in problems because its not evolving for MMA, is beyond fucking stupid, because it's already defactor essential for all strikers and wrestlers to learn it, and the same goes for BJJ guys who also need to learn striking and wrestling.
You apply a ignorant logic on BJJ but goes into defeatism when refusing to apply the same illogical guidelines on striking and boxing, and that's what is annoying AF about your entire sthick.







Here is the bile you wrote:




Screw your loaded question clickbait bullshit. You deserve to be called out for this you troll.

Dude...calm down..you're making me look zen...

It's not as dumb a question as you seem to think. They just took it to illogical extremes

 

[kintana]

I know that some people believe that UFC 1 proved that traditional martial arts are ineffective in real life. But in reality, all it did was show a hole in traditional martial arts. As UFC's continued, in less than a decade, BJJ was no longer king. Wrestlers were learning how defend submissions. Strikers were learning how to stuff takedowns. So while UFC 1 exposed the fact that most martial arts have no ground game, modern MMA is exposing the fact that BJJ has no stand up game. And that, in my opinion, is a problem.

I remember there was a time where maybe 50% of black belts dreamed of testing themselves in MMA. The Nog bros even ditched the gi for a while. There was a time where guys wanted to represent BJJ as a martial art that was still relevant. But what's the current role of BJJ in MMA? Watching Feijao have a pretty useless guard against OSP tells me. It's supplemental. It's not treated as essential. It's not your rifle. It's not even your side arm. It's your knife. It's like a last resort. A forgotten tool unless the opportunity presents itself.

Even when it's used, it's mostly just the same basic stuff that we've seen for years. Meanwhile, BJJ players are evolving the art at a rapid rate in a sport context. Sitting straight to their butts. Spinning upside down, pulling pants, and tying the gi in knots. I notice that the new BJJ dream isn't to compete in MMA. It's to win medals and open a school.

So all of this leads me to ask, has BJJ stopped evolving for MMA? Is this it? BJJ has reached it's maximum potential as a martial art in MMA? There is nothing else that can be done to improve its effectiveness? It really makes me wonder if BJJ really is the ultimate martial art or if it really is more of a back up plan.

I almost feel like boxing would be a better martial art to learn.

BJJ athletes want to make a living from BJJ not all of them want to make a living from MMA.

Thought I am not a fan of the butt sitting I can see why people would do it. Now is that effective for MMA ? No it is not. Some of the fancy stuff can work in MMA if Ryan Hall is any proof.

But why should a full time BJJ athletes who competes in IBJJF, ADCC and others worry about having the skill set of a MMA fighter. Times have changed BJJ doesn't need to prove itself. Just like Judo, Wrestling, Boxing and Muay Thai dont need to prove themselves.

Take all the above martial arts throw the top guys in those sports into a MMA match with only that skill set they will probably lose. The reason isn't because they and BJJ are not effective it is not because MMA is now more well rounded. Even if Rickson was 30 years old today he could not win in MMA with only his skill set. Because now guys know grappling.

Another point in the past there was probably zero money in BJJ if you were one of the top guys and your last name was not Gracie. Now there is some money not a lot but some. So a guy like Nog needed MMA. Even Eddie Bravo said that if it wasn't for his win against Royler opening doors he would have had to fight MMA to survive. Today the elite BJJ guys do not need MMA to survive.

Now the problem is that a lot of BJJ schools do not teach the basics of self defense or MMA. I saw one beginner class show spider guard. But they can't escape a headlock. But there is a reason for this most guys will probably want to win in competitions.

Yes probably BJJ stopped evolving for MMA because there is some money in BJJ.

That is not to say that you cannot be good in MMA if BJJ is your primary art. D. Maia and Dos Anjos are good examples.

 

[Badger67]

Plenty of wrestlers understand Overhooks...and hip tosses and throws...not as easy as one would think with the sweat and cut grease acting to make everything slippery

This, ^^, plus try throwing a good wrestler from the clinch with o'goshi. uchi mata and variants (this is my bread and butter in wrestling/judo), it isn't easy by far and im a guy who can do it. The average mma guy might get thrown with it, a solid wrestler/judoka? Not bloody likely for the effort you'll need. Some guys like karo, DHK, Maia is quite good surprisingly, etc are good at it but still, it's not going to be a common place thing.

 

[PointyShinyBurn]

Solid 8/10 for TehGwarch.

 

[jack36767]

This, ^^, plus try throwing a good wrestler from the clinch with o'goshi. uchi mata and variants (this is my bread and butter in wrestling/judo), it isn't easy by far and im a guy who can do it. The average mma guy might get thrown with it, a solid wrestler/judoka? Not bloody likely for the effort you'll need. Some guys like karo, DHK, Maia is quite good surprisingly, etc are good at it but still, it's not going to be a common place thing.

Exactly, the same reason that some wrestling coaches don't prefer to teach throws is the same reason the thinks they should be used "so much more". People want to use throws as short cuts from actually doing the work rather than understanding everything requires the work. You don't throw because "wrestling is too hard", you throw because you are good at it or its there