Has BJJ Stopped evolving for MMA?

[BJJ_Rage]

Been watching UFC for 20 years, watched boxing since I was a kid. I have an opinion on rules... just like you. IMO, a few rule changes improves the level of competition in MMA.

If we look at MMA as just fighing, well, we can go back to the almost-no-holds-barred days. Nah, UFC was not as exciting as today. Allow hammer fists to a standing opponent only and ya know what happens? The athletes have to use a new tactical technique when on the ground. That, my good man, improves the sport.

Is your opinion worth more weight than mine? Enlighten us and explain why, otherwise, chalk this up as we disagree.

Thanks for contributing.

-T

Is not true, PRIDE was WAY WAY more exiting than what the UFC is. PRIDE banned elbows, but soccer kicking was legal, and added a lot of exitment to the table. Now anyone could soccer kick anyone, you dont need to be a ninja for that. What you seem to be in love with is watching something the regular joe cant do, well you can watch kickboxing and boxing, regular joes will get killed in there, too bad in fighting, bullrushing also exist, and that is something regular joes can do also.

What you are proposing is absolutely ridiculous, banning something because "you dont need to train to be good at" is ridiculous, in order to hammer punch someone, you have to get the guy into a position where youc an do it.

 

[These Two Hands]

Bar fights. lol

The outcome of a bar fight doesn't really matter.

I left without talking to police because nobody was around or it was over so fast nobody cared. People tend to seriously hurt you when witnesses are not around.

I know, I know people never try to hurt each other outside of a bar. lol That's why real martial artists tend to come from FSU or South America.

Americans hipsters in gated communities talking about bar fights with other pussies like they are emergencies.

Yeah I've never been too inclined to stick around and talk to the police either. Sometimes somebody knows who you were, or names you. Sometimes it's still going on when they show up. Bar fights are just an example, they're one of the most common ones to get locked up for. The outcome of the bar fight sure matters when you're standing in the dock.

Prison sucks, as I am sure you also know well.

I've been in a lot of street fights. Most of them could have been avoided. I've lived in Ulster, so I'm reasonably aware that violence can happen anywhere. Perhaps you are so super tough that what would be considered violence in Northern Ireland is laughable to you - hey, good for you son.

I don't know about hipsters and gated communities, I grew up as the "lowest common denominator" and tend to stick around my own sort.

 

[T-Bone]

I just want clarification...you want this new rule because hammers fists aren't "technical" enough because any person can do them.. and because it "will force new tactics on the ground", am I getting that right?

I think keeping hammer fists, bringing back 12-6 elbows and knees to the ground will force new and better tactics that better favor groundwork and will actually give bjj guys more options to stop and hurt wrestlers.

The biggest thing that would benefit bjj guys without artificially going back to NHB era to completely favor them would be a 10 minute first round

You enumerated my position correctly. Although I disagree with your position. That's okay.

Is not true, PRIDE was WAY WAY more exiting than what the UFC is. PRIDE banned elbows, but soccer kicking was legal, and added a lot of exitment to the table. Now anyone could soccer kick anyone, you dont need to be a ninja for that. What you seem to be in love with is watching something the regular joe cant do, well you can watch kickboxing and boxing, regular joes will get killed in there, too bad in fighting, bullrushing also exist, and that is something regular joes can do also.

What you are proposing is absolutely ridiculous, banning something because "you dont need to train to be good at" is ridiculous, in order to hammer punch someone, you have to get the guy into a position where youc an do it.

2 guys on the street. One of them knows TKD, the other knows no MA.

Scenario #1: TKD guy kicks to the head. Pretty cool. Fight over.

Scenario #2: TKD guy slips on a banana peel lining up a kick. Both fall to ground, clutching. What does the guy that knows nothing do? Hammer fist. Hail Mary punches, etc.

Case closed. I should have been a lawyer like my cousin vinny.

-T

 

[BJJ_Rage]

You enumerated my position correctly. Although I disagree with your position. That's okay.




2 guys on the street. One of them knows TKD, the other knows no MA.

Scenario #1: TKD guy kicks to the head. Pretty cool. Fight over.

Scenario #2: TKD guy slips on a banana peel lining up a kick. Both fall to ground, clutching. What does the guy that knows nothing do? Hammer fist. Hail Mary punches, etc.

Case closed. I should have been a lawyer like my cousin vinny.

-T

Scenario #3: knows nothing guy bullrushes takes the tkd dude down and beats the living shit out of him.

Again, if you wanna see pretty kicks and ninja shit, bruce lee movies --------> way.

 

[SummerStriker]

Scenario #3: knows nothing guy bullrushes takes the tkd dude down and beats the living shit out of him.

Again, if you wanna see pretty kicks and ninja shit, bruce lee movies --------> way.

Or the TKD guy is in better shape from being an adult with a workout hobby and can make a good fist, so when they start slapping each other and rolling around he comes out on top.

 

[lechien]

Did I read this correctly?

no training is better than TKD training!

You have to be kidding me.

I respect every MA, not sure why so many people do not.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

Did I read this correctly?

no training is better than TKD training!

You have to be kidding me.

I respect every MA, not sure why so many people do not.

How did you come up with this conclusion ?

 

[lechien]

from what I am reading above.

 

[GalegoREB]

Been watching UFC for 20 years, watched boxing since I was a kid. I have an opinion on rules... just like you. IMO, a few rule changes improves the level of competition in MMA.

If we look at MMA as just fighing, well, we can go back to the almost-no-holds-barred days. Nah, UFC was not as exciting as today. Allow hammer fists to a standing opponent only and ya know what happens? The athletes have to use a new tactical technique when on the ground. That, my good man, improves the sport.

Is your opinion worth more weight than mine? Enlighten us and explain why, otherwise, chalk this up as we disagree.

Thanks for contributing.

-T

Your problem is that you have a romanticized view of fighting when the reality is much more ugly. Do some hard sparring and some of things that have been said in this thread will make much more sense to you

 

[Big Nasty Edison]

So is this thread about the validity of other martial arts in a street fight vs. some average joe? I don't do karate but I watch a lot more point karate on youtube than I should and some of those WKF guys seem like they'd be hell to catch and get your hands on if they have enough space in the street.

 

[TehGwarch]

Yeah I've never been too inclined to stick around and talk to the police either. Sometimes somebody knows who you were, or names you. Sometimes it's still going on when they show up. Bar fights are just an example, they're one of the most common ones to get locked up for. The outcome of the bar fight sure matters when you're standing in the dock.

Prison sucks, as I am sure you also know well.

I've been in a lot of street fights. Most of them could have been avoided. I've lived in Ulster, so I'm reasonably aware that violence can happen anywhere. Perhaps you are so super tough that what would be considered violence in Northern Ireland is laughable to you - hey, good for you son.

I don't know about hipsters and gated communities, I grew up as the "lowest common denominator" and tend to stick around my own sort.

Obviously fights can happen where you have to play "good guy" but those are few and far between if you play your cards right.

I never go to bars or drink, you know that whole "clean living thing" everybody hates and disparages. But then again, that's part of the wisdom one gains...

Which makes me wonder about alleged "athletes" who care so much for their "explosiveness" they can't risk building their slow twitch fibers(lol)...but go to bars, drink alcohol and have fights.

Trust me, do the tricep push downs, train your combat applications and stay out of the bar. Making good decisions and doing boring tasks is part of being an adult.

I wear glasses, hats and don't hang out with rats. Naming me would not be a great idea, since I will also get his name. Amazing how quickly they change their tune, these are not brave people.

Most of the fights I was in were avoidable (by me backing down, which I won't) and I hurt some people who thought they could lean on me...but I don't really give a shit. lol

 

[These Two Hands]

Obviously fights can happen where you have to play "good guy" but those are few and far between if you play your cards right.

I never go to bars or drink, you know that whole "clean living thing" everybody hates and disparages. But then again, that's part of the wisdom one gains...

I used to a lot. Kind of grew out of it as I got older though.

Which makes me wonder about alleged "athletes" who care so much for their "explosiveness" they can't risk building their slow twitch fibers(lol)...but go to bars, drink alcohol and have fights. Then mock me for doing tricep push downs and training self defense.

Trust me, do the push downs, train your combat applications and stay out of the bar. Making good decisions and doing boring tasks is part of being an adult.

I didn't mock you in that thread, I don't give a fuck how you want to work out. Whatever works for you, man. However like my Da always said, never trust a man who doesn't drink. I was never an athlete, but when I was younger I liked to fight a lot. Bars are good places to get into fights.

I wear glasses, hats and don't hang out with rats. Naming me would not be a great idea, since I will also get his name. Amazing how quickly they change their tune, these are not brave people.

Snitches get stitches, yeah of course. Even my toddlers know that.

Most of the fights I was in were avoidable (by me backing down, which I won't) and I hurt some people permanently who thought they could lean on me...but I don't really give a shit. lol

Gotta do what you gotta do.

This whole thing spun off from me simply pointing out you can get away with choking someone out a lot easier than you can beating them down. When I was younger, I enjoyed carnage and the focused, calm "buzz" that you get when you fight. I did some pretty bad things to people (some of them pretty bad people, mind you) and was made to pay a price for some of those actions - an unjust price, in my opinion, but that's why you've got to be smart about these things. I've taken some pretty gnarly beatings too, I'm not superman or anything. In the end, it never ends. You go do something to someone, they do something back. While you're laid up, the guys you run with go do something and then the guys the other fella runs with do something back. People's families and children usually get dragged into it, so then you have to escalate things in kind. It doesn't take long before both sides are burying friends and loved ones. And for what? Because you considered yourself too big to back down? Yeah, I used to think like that when I was a lad too.

Hindsight is a bittersweet lesson, but honestly sometimes you really have to choose your battles. Not every slight is worth going to prison for, or starting a feud over.

Lastly, if you were to sit across from me in a bar (ok, so you don't go to bars - Starbucks then) and flatly tell me you walk around handing out GBH freely and liberally, but have never done time for it because you don't hang around with rats, first thing that's going to come to my mind is that you're either a fucking gobshite, or you're a rat yourself. The world doesn't work that way, everyone gets pinched at some point or another.

 

[TehGwarch]

I used to a lot. Kind of grew out of it as I got older though.



I didn't mock you in that thread, I don't give a fuck how you want to work out. Whatever works for you, man. However like my Da always said, never trust a man who doesn't drink. I was never an athlete, but when I was younger I liked to fight a lot. Bars are good places to get into fights.



Snitches get stitches, yeah of course. Even my toddlers know that.



Gotta do what you gotta do.

This whole thing spun off from me simply pointing out you can get away with choking someone out a lot easier than you can beating them down. When I was younger, I enjoyed carnage and the focused, calm "buzz" that you get when you fight. I did some pretty bad things to people (some of them pretty bad people, mind you) and was made to pay a price for some of those actions - an unjust price, in my opinion, but that's why you've got to be smart about these things. I've taken some pretty gnarly beatings too, I'm not superman or anything. In the end, it never ends. You go do something to someone, they do something back. While you're laid up, the guys you run with go do something and then the guys the other fella runs with do something back. People's families and children usually get dragged into it, so then you have to escalate things in kind. It doesn't take long before both sides are burying friends and loved ones. And for what? Because you considered yourself too big to back down? Yeah, I used to think like that when I was a lad too.

Hindsight is a bittersweet lesson, but honestly sometimes you really have to choose your battles. Not every slight is worth going to prison for, or starting a feud over.

Lastly, if you were to sit across from me in a bar (ok, so you don't go to bars - Starbucks then) and flatly tell me you walk around handing out GBH freely and liberally, but have never done time for it because you don't hang around with rats, first thing that's going to come to my mind is that you're either a fucking gobshite, or you're a rat yourself. The world doesn't work that way, everyone gets pinched at some point or another.

No I didn't sell any drugs or do anything illegal.

Nothing illegal about fucking someone up who attacks you, even if you stand your ground. It's just that they sue. But I know how to handle that - deep down they know they're wrong. lol

There was a couple times arrest almost happened but I'm good at managing shit like that.

Slapped my boss around at work once for bullying me. The cops came but nobody would back him up since he's such a jerk. They had to let me go since we couldn't keep working together but I got a good reference, unemployment and worked for them later. If I waited around they would've had me in cuffs, as it went I never even spoke to the cops.

I'm not the backing down type but I make up for it by being lucky and knowing things like "always leave the scene". I also left the state until it blew over, just to be safe.

BJJ is cool, I've just never used it in a fight. I know someone who used it in a bar fight and he got sued so...

Get your money's worth I guess. haha

 

[T-Bone]

Your problem is that you have a romanticized view of fighting when the reality is much more ugly. Do some hard sparring and some of things that have been said in this thread will make much more sense to you

Truth be told, you may be right...but hard sparring won't change my view. If I got into the cage with an opponent of equal age, weight, and skill, well... if we hit the ground (technically, I know so little MA since I just started), I would rather we proved who was better by using wrestling and bjj ( Rather than using tItty twisters, pinching, head kicks, or hammer fists).

Some of the techniques I mentioned in parentheses are forbidden by ufc rules. I mention it because it is so easy to say one rule is good and one rule is bad... or how one rule enhances grappling while another rule degrades it.

But in my view, if you want to make grappling relevant, then you have to change the rules to make a grappling relevant.

Someone in the thread stated:
"bringing back 12-6 elbows and knees to the ground will force new and better tactics that better favor groundwork and will actually give bjj guys more options to stop and hurt wrestlers."

If that's the case, we might also allow pinching because that too will force better groundwork. And while we're at it, we can allow a fighter to grab the cheek by inserting a finger inside the mouth and just tearing at that cheek because that will force new tactics, Yada yada. Then where does it stop? Bring back stompping.

Or, allow only certain blows when on the ground and that makes grappling more relevant. I say grappling, but I really mean bjj.

I am in the minority.

-T

 

[BJJ_Rage]

Truth be told, you may be right...but hard sparring won't change my view. If I got into the cage with an opponent of equal age, weight, and skill, well... if we hit the ground (technically, I know so little MA since I just started), I would rather we proved who was better by using wrestling and bjj ( Rather than using tItty twisters, pinching, head kicks, or hammer fists).

Some of the techniques I mentioned in parentheses are forbidden by ufc rules. I mention it because it is so easy to say one rule is good and one rule is bad... or how one rule enhances grappling while another rule degrades it.

But in my view, if you want to make grappling relevant, then you have to change the rules to make a grappling relevant.

Someone in the thread stated:
"bringing back 12-6 elbows and knees to the ground will force new and better tactics that better favor groundwork and will actually give bjj guys more options to stop and hurt wrestlers."

If that's the case, we might also allow pinching because that too will force better groundwork. And while we're at it, we can allow a fighter to grab the cheek by inserting a finger inside the mouth and just tearing at that cheek because that will force new tactics, Yada yada. Then where does it stop? Bring back stompping.

Or, allow only certain blows when on the ground and that makes grappling more relevant. I say grappling, but I really mean bjj.

I am in the minority.

-T

why do you want to make grappling more relevant? grappling will be more relevant if you take away some rules, thus making it closer to a real life scenario, now making new rules in order to favor a specific set of moves, thats different, and it really makes no sense.

 

[T-Bone]

why do you want to make grappling more relevant? grappling will be more relevant if you take away some rules, thus making it closer to a real life scenario, now making new rules in order to favor a specific set of moves, thats different, and it really makes no sense.

Well, I was saying that certain rules, IMO, make it so fighters do not need to know as many grappling techniques because they are relying on ground striking to weaken an opponent, then they get the TKO or use a submission to end the fight.

As we remove ground strikes, a bjj or grappler will, wait for it, be able to grapple and use sophisticated techniques to submit an opponent.

Many have stated rule changes have disfavored the bjj fighter in MMA. So, change some of the rules. I do not want rule changes to favor grapplers, but I think rule changes are necessary to give each Martial Art in MMA competition equal opportunity to excel.

And I do not care about real life scenario. We are not talking street fights. We care talking regulated MMA that was originally conceived in UFC to showcase the martial arts.

Which rules do you think will make grappling more relevant if said rules are removed?

-T

 

[Bluesbreaker]

I think most people missed the point of this thread.

Everyone is training BJJ and neutralising each other? Who is taking BJJ in the MMA context and pushing past the point where guys are neutralising it? Not that many.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

Well, I was saying that certain rules, IMO, make it so fighters do not need to know as many grappling techniques because they are relying on ground striking to weaken an opponent, then they get the TKO or use a submission to end the fight.

As we remove ground strikes, a bjj or grappler will, wait for it, be able to grapple and use sophisticated techniques to submit an opponent.

Many have stated rule changes have disfavored the bjj fighter in MMA. So, change some of the rules. I do not want rule changes to favor grapplers, but I think rule changes are necessary to give each Martial Art in MMA competition equal opportunity to excel.[/QUOTE]

you have it backwards, the inclusion of rules such as gloves time limit, banning heel strikes from guard, banning upckicks is what has made grappling less effective, if you banned strikes, sure it will make grappling more relevant, but in detriment or reality, if you want to watch 2 guys grappling, thats what grappling competitions are for, not mma.

And I do not care about real life scenario. We are not talking street fights. We care talking regulated MMA that was originally conceived in UFC to showcase the martial arts.

wrong, the UFC was created to showcase which MA was the best IN A FIGHTING scenario, thus having been born with practcally no rules. The reason why bjj exploted was because it worked even in this extreme scenario. If strikes were banned right from the beginning, sure bjj wouldve been nice and all, but wouldve never been proved to work under a realistic scenario.

Which rules do you think will make grappling more relevant if said rules are removed?

-T

gloves upkicks and time limit (time limit is not an option, but 10 minute rounds a la pride will help)

 

[T-Bone]

Many have stated rule changes have disfavored the bjj fighter in MMA. So, change some of the rules. I do not want rule changes to favor grapplers, but I think rule changes are necessary to give each Martial Art in MMA competition equal opportunity to excel.

[QUOTE="BJJ_Rage]
you have it backwards, the inclusion of rules such as gloves time limit, banning heel strikes from guard, banning upckicks is what has made grappling less effective, if you banned strikes, sure it will make grappling more relevant, but in detriment or reality, if you want to watch 2 guys grappling, thats what grappling competitions are for, not mma.



wrong, the UFC was created to showcase which MA was the best IN A FIGHTING scenario, thus having been born with practcally no rules. The reason why bjj exploted was because it worked even in this extreme scenario. If strikes were banned right from the beginning, sure bjj wouldve been nice and all, but wouldve never been proved to work under a realistic scenario.
[/QUOTE]

Post is mangled... all above this line is quoted............

gloves upkicks and time limit (time limit is not an option, but 10 minute rounds a la pride will help)[/QUOTE]

All good stuff. You're right... UFC showcased MMA in a fighting situation. I stand corrected.

I agree about gloves and time limits too.

T is tired. Gotta get up for work

-T

 

[jack36767]

Guys... very inclined to take thesetwohands opinion on street fighting higher than others because he grew up in Ulster..not a diss at all. Just a place where being tough can be very important to having a decent life. Just saying

Correct me if I am wrong."thesetwohands"