Glory 36 Germany & Glory Collision: Verhoeven vs. Hari (Discussion) 11am EST & 4pm EST

[jtwarwagon4life]

I think its just that those stories about the 80s and 90s fighters happened before there was internet or when there was primative expensive internet, so there wasn't anyone doing fact checking and the mythology spiraled out of control. Now we find ourselves in the awkward position of being given all the facts and noting the discrepancies. They will be corrected, but it takes time.

Yeah, maybe someone should post some of the steve armstrong video collection to give people a sense of the time.

 

[jtwarwagon4life]

Skarbowsky started fighting on the European circuit in 95 and only started fighting Thais in 97. Dany Bill started fighting Thais around 93 - 94. Even Dida who was one of the first Frenches to fight in Thailand only started in the 90's. Manu Ntoh started fighting Thais in 95 too.

Compare that to Gilbert Ballantine, Dekkers, etc. they were already fighting Thai's in the 80's, some even in the late 70's.

Most of those French and Dutch fighters fought each other in the 90's though as you said, so it's a bit of a pointless argument.

I believe Bill fought Nongmoon as early as 90 or 91. Certainly Fabrice Payen and Kerner were active during the 80s. Some of the dutch fighters I listed would only have started fighting thais by the mid 90's as well.

It's all beside the point anyway since what the dutch did wasn't unprecedented as the Japanese had already accomplished similar or better things in the 70's.

 

[Tayski]

I believe Bill fought Nongmoon as early as 90 or 91. Certainly Fabrice Payen and Kerner were active during the 80s. Some of the dutch fighters I listed would only have started fighting thais by the mid 90's as well.

It's all beside the point anyway since what the dutch did wasn't unprecedented as the Japanese had already accomplished similar or better things in the 70's.

OK maybe unprecedented is a strong word. However you still have guys like Samart and Dieselnoi listing Dutch fighters when asked who are the strongest farang nak muay they ever faced (specifically they name Ramon Dekkers and Rob Kaman interestingly enough). I remember Dieselnoi also saying that France and Japan were the countries with the highest number of top nak muay after Thailand though.

 

[Snubnoze707]

Here's what Rutten said which I was referring to at 33:30:



Does that line up with your story @Tayski ?

 

[SuperLuigi]

OK maybe unprecedented is a strong word. However you still have guys like Samart and Dieselnoi listing Dutch fighters when asked who are the strongest farang nak muay they ever faced (specifically they name Ramon Dekkers and Rob Kaman interestingly enough). I remember Dieselnoi also saying that France and Japan were the countries with the highest number of top nak muay after Thailand though.

I think you mean "observed."

 

[jtwarwagon4life]

Ok, but the thing is that the dutch are supposed to be the first people who were smart enough to combine punching and leg kicking and then swept the floor with the thais, that's total bullshit. What Bas Rutten said and what you're saying aren't remotely the same. So what Rutten is saying is very far from the truth.

And that the Dutch taught the thais how to box too, I should have anticipated that one.

 

[Cocakillbana]

Here's what Rutten said which I was referring to at 33:30:



Does that line up with your story @Tayski ?

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I'll take being a hipster over these types. Maybe we're annoying, but at least we try to present facts instead of just making shit up, which is perhaps the main reason for being annoying. It's a pushback.

 

[Snubnoze707]

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I'll take being a hipster over these types. Maybe we're annoying, but at least we try to present facts instead of just making shit up.

Believe me this mispresentation of facts on this specific subject gripes me more than anything. Even worse when it's coming from someone you would think would be factual, someone who came out of Holland and has been a martial arts journalist/commentator for like 15 years.

 

[jtwarwagon4life]

Here's what Rutten said which I was referring to at 33:30:



Does that line up with your story @Tayski ?

Rutten basically managed to expound all the main dutch kickboxing myths, except Dekkers being fighter of the year, in under 2 minutes. Got to be some sort of record.

 

[jtwarwagon4life]

Believe me this mispresentation of facts on this specific subject gripes me more than anything. Even worse when it's coming from someone you would think would be factual, someone who came out of Holland and has been a martial arts journalist/commentator for like 15 years.

But the thing is I think that the origin of the misinformation is much less innocent than you might think. I think alot of it was started by people in the Netherlands who were there when it happened and knew the facts about where the Dutch stood relative to Thailand and the rest of the world, knew what Dekkers actually accomplished, but just didn't care. I mean, even Rutten, did he really not know about all the dutch vs thai cards in holland where the dutch got stomped or all the dutch teams that fought in Lumpinee and didn't win hardly at all. I think Rutten just chooses to be ignorant, more convenient that way, if the mystique of the "Dutch style" wears off it's worse for business.
These guys come from traditional martial arts backgrounds where "creating a new style" and generally selling a product are a big part of the culture. I don't hear former fighter from France talking about how they changed the game or did things which were unique; then again I don't speak French so I don't know.

I mean is this even trying to rise above the level of propaganda?:

 

[Cocakillbana]

Believe me this mispresentation of facts on this specific subject gripes me more than anything. Even worse when it's coming from someone you would think would be factual, someone who came out of Holland and has been a martial arts journalist/commentator for like 15 years.

I expect such things from Rutten. He's a horrible commentator and it's clear he doesn't do his homework. If he didn't have a quirky personality it would be much more obvious. That's why people like him, not because he's actually good at commentating.

 

[Tayski]

I think you mean "observed."

Indeed, somehow I thought they might have had faced them. So they never fought either of them?
I mean it's still interesting they consider them the strongest farang they've observed though - especially considering I remember the interviewer being French so they could have named some French fighters instead to make him happy.

Here's what Rutten said which I was referring to at 33:30:

Does that line up with your story @Tayski ?

It's overly exaggerated for sure. He does make it sound like they were dominating the Thais which isn't true, they lost all their fights at first and really had to adjust their style. The first time Thom Harinck took some of Dutch fighters to fight in Lumpini (from memory he took 5 or 6 fighters), they all got KO'd in round 1 and round 2. And that happened many times again when Dutch fighters fought Thais.
The Dutch coaches like Thom Harinck had to live in Thailand and learn from the Thais themselves for a while before bringing the knowledge back to the Netherlands and it's only after that that Dutch fighters started winning a few fights against Thais sometimes.
It's true though when Rutten says that it's the use of their hands that usually got them the victory when they won (+ aggressive style in the early rounds which he doesn't mention), while when they lost it was usually to clinch + knees or elbows or decisions.

I remember in 1990 that Peter Smit knocked out Changpuek in Lumpini with a right cross in 2nd round, and Hyppolite TKO'd Jomhod Kiatadisak champion of both Rajadamnern and Lumpini in 3rd round, also Gilbert Ballantine won by decision against Sangtiennoi (who weighed in 4 kilos heavier than Ballantine), etc. They also won a few times before that too.

That's why I like Thom Harinck's book. He's a lot more honest about when his fighters got owned, or when they got the win, and he describes what happened in each fight, be it a win or a loss. He's not bragging like Rutten or saying the Dutch were owning the Thais, if anything he actually says how much the Thai savaged his fighters especially the first few years they faced them.

 

[Cocakillbana]

But the thing is I think that the origin of the misinformation is much less innocent than you might think. I think alot of it was started by people in the Netherlands who were there when it happened and knew the facts about where the Dutch stood relative to Thailand and the rest of the world, knew what Dekkers actually accomplished, but just didn't care. I mean, even Rutten, did he really not know about all the dutch vs thai cards in holland where the dutch got stomped or all the dutch teams that fought in Lumpinee and didn't win hardly at all. I think Rutten just chooses to be ignorant, more convenient that way, if the mystique of the "Dutch style" wears off it's worse for business.
These guys come from traditional martial arts backgrounds where "creating a new style" and generally selling a product are a big part of the culture. I don't hear former fighter from France talking about how they changed the game or did things which were unique; then again I don't speak French so I don't know.

I mean is this even trying to rise above the level of propaganda?:

I've not seen this before. Wow!

So much absurdity from 34:00-37:05. The part about "normal European rules" especially had me good.

Imagine this being about baseball just to get better context about how ludicrous this really is. Let's say Europe had its own rules, came to American and lost, went back and said "if it was under normal European rules we would have won." They would get laughed at by everyone. This here is no different, but only a few would, or could acknowledge it as being absolute bullshit.

 

[Kanka]

Heres a video of ramon dekkers getting outboxed

It's funny how they're saying he could only win by knocking out the opponent in thailand, but Dekkers lost fights against thais outside of thailand too.

 

[Tayski]

Heres a video of ramon dekkers getting outboxed

It's funny how they're saying he could only win by knocking out the opponent in thailand, but Dekkers lost fights against thais outside of thailand too.

Well when he beat a Thai it was usually either by punch KO or by decision (I'm only talking about the wins here). I'm pretty sure about half of his wins over Thais are by punch KO and the other half are decisions. And when he lost (which happened quite a few times) it was pretty much always by decision (I think he only got KO'd by a Thai once or twice).

 

[Kanka]

Well when he beat a Thai it was usually either by punch KO or by decision (I'm only talking about the wins here). I'm pretty sure about half of his wins over Thais are by punch KO and the other half are decisions. And when he lost (which happened quite a few times) it was pretty much always by decision (I think he only got KO'd by a Thai once or twice).

Yeah same thing with the sitmonchai fighters with a similar fighting style. They usually don't win unless they get a KO.

In the video they were talking as if Dekkers would get robbed if he didn't get a KO.

 

[Cocakillbana]

Yeah same thing with the sitmonchai fighters with a similar fighting style. They usually don't win unless they get a KO.

Wait, are you saying it's possible certain ways of fighting might not be appealing to Thais, and that it's not about someone's skin color? This is a breakthrough!

 

[jtwarwagon4life]

It's true though when Rutten says that it's the use of their hands that usually got them the victory when they won (+ aggressive style in the early rounds which he doesn't mention), while when they lost it was usually to clinch + knees or elbows or decisions.

If pretty much the only thing you do is punch, then when you win, which didn't happen very often for the dutch, punching will probably be involved. But I don't see why this is seen as evidence that the dutch were great boxers they were just limited; and I don't see why the thais using kicks and knees to win fights shows that they don't know how to box, they're just more versatile. But the point is that the Dutch weren't the first to employ a punch heavy style, they don't box better than the thais, and their style didn't change the way fights in thailand are fought.

The thais beat the dutch every which way, including with their hands:

 

[SuperLuigi]

Reading this thread is like reading a thread about if Fedor is the GOAT or not. You've read it countless times and its funny to think people still have the conversation after all these years.

 

[Cocakillbana]

I am not responsible for the direction of this thread.

Just saying in case of confusion.