GGG- CANELO MOST POWERFUL AND HARDEST PUNCHER I WILL FACE IN MY CAREER

[Shoemaker]

GGG/Brook is the weirdest fight. Golovkin stops Brook inside 5 rounds, and people used it as the reason Brook would beat Spence and why Golovkin is slipping.

 

[wilddeuces]

GGG is 35 years old and had a 350 fight amateur career, I think it's safe to say he's slowing down a bit and on the downside of his prime at the very least. His performance against Kell Brook was pretty bad in my opinion, GGG defended it by saying he purposely brawled with Kell Brook and wanted to look human and exploitable so people would be willing to take fights vs him...but that's just boxing talk nonsense, it was a back and forth war and GGG was getting beaten up at points. Of course Brook who was a champion 2 weight divisions lower was going to be faster, when I say GGG is slowing down I mean relative to his own self. GGG seemed to lack his normal tenacity and pressure vs Jacobs, he had his moments and got the knockdown but he couldn't really effective change like he normally does vs Jacobs, he looked slow and complacent out there a bit.

I get that Canelo is a very different fighter than Jacobs or Brooks, but I think Canelo has the power to make Golovkin respect him, I think Canelo has the hand speed to get off first and combinations to pull away with rounds and force Golovkin to make adjustments which I really didn't see Golovkin do vs Kell or Jacobs even when he needed to. On top of this, to me it's a close and compelling fight but Golovkin is 35 and on the downside of his prime or just falling out of it (in my opinion) while Canelo is 26 and on the upside of his prime. Fights like this usually favor the younger man.

He looked lazy and rushed it against Brook, no doubt, and this is just as logical a deduction as yours. He wasn't getting beaten up on points is very very subjective. For four rounds, Kell coud get two, GGG would get two, but to say it was a landslide is utter bias. Though, his subsequent fight against Jacobs, who is probably the second best in the division, shows that he hasn't slowed. He took it to a big guy, with skills, and a massive punch and showed that he wasn't slow, he was just fighting someone that is probably underappreciated in the boxing game. What about GGG was fast to begin with? How did he slow when he kept going at Jacobs for 12 rounds and won a close fight? Where is the slowness? Jacobs didn't want to be hit, so he didn't even sit down on his own punches. It's real hard to knock someone out who is sacrificing sitting down on their own punches to move out of the way of GGG's. I can't state this enough, Jacobs is a huge MW that is pretty fast and athletic. That's a tough combination. Who else in the MW division could have done what GGG did? Quillin sure didn't, and he is legit, even if we didn't get to see much that night. You say that GGG doesn't make adjustments, and I say, there's room for error in your observation. He applies pressure and builds momentu; this is his M.O. But he also modifies when, and where he chooses to throw his punches. The right uppercut off the jab to Jacobs, but the way caught him. As did his doubling up, on his right hand. I'm not saying GGG is some God God God, nor am I saying that he makes adjustments like some of the more noteworthy 'boxer' types throughout the sport's rich history, but I am saying that he modifies things according to what his fighter gives him. He does it enough to win this much.

Can Canelo take away the best jab at MW? Khan's thwarted his defensive timing until Khan stopped doing what worked (ironically, you believe that GGG was being rolled by Brook on the cards, but this is actually a more valid observation for Canelo vs Khan). Mayweather's jab did this, too (among other things, yes, things that don't apply to GGG; fair play). Lara's did. Even full body feints from Smith did enough to bait Alvarez into moving into a bad position (along the ropes) back in September. I would be surprised if Canelo has the kind of power that Jacobs or Stevens does and look how those fights went. Lemiuex must have - to quote Million Dollar Baby - "a left hook that could move a Sherman tank" because GGG jabbed and moved to neutralize that all night. And let's not forget who the seasoned MW is in this fight. Alvarez is fighting a legit puncher that always finds a way to stop OR knockdown his opponents at MW. Always. Like, without fail in recent memory. Canelo is gonna have to be on a mental and phsical hair-trigger all night while Golovkin chooses when he wants to engage. With this very important point in mind, answer me:
Who gets more tired coping with that pressure? (Canelo)
Who, typically, gets more tired throughout their fights and takes breaks that cost them rounds? (Canelo)
Who is going to have to wait on the other? (Canelo)

Age matters, but every fighter has so many fights in them (look at Big George). Mayweather took care of himself and boxed until he was, what 38? Golovkin doesn't go in there and get demolished in fights and take punches left, right and centre. To say that he is 35 is true, and statistically, fighters begin to fade - according to their prevailing DNA and lifestyles - by their mid-thirties. But the fighters that stay effective into their late 30's are ones that never relied on their God-given physical talents to begin with (Gamboa, Pascal to a strong degree) or had their speed or their physicality at the centrepiece of their success. Golovkin fights a positional game - in spite of what people think. He's a blackjack held by a chess player (but, admittedly, you can only use that weapon in so many ways). I don't think 35 is as big a deal to his decline as it is to, say, Pacquiao.

Of course, I could be wrong.

 

[wilddeuces]

Canelo's defense is getting close to: "stand in front of you and not get hit" level. He doesnt need good feet, its not him, its not what he does, it doesnt matter to him...different boxers apply defense different ways. With Jacobs it was with range movement in and out with his legs, because thats what he's comfortable with. Canelo uses spacing, angles, shoulders, slips, parrys and counters, right there in front of a guy. Great legs or footwork is overrated if a guy can defend without having to use them.

Yup. I agree 100%. We can't expect Canelo to start moving his feet. Everyone could benefit from good feet, though. When we lack something, it becomes a pattern to exploit. So, even if he has used upper body movement for so much of his defensive success, convincing feints, control of distance, and a good jab were used by a good number of fighters to nullify Canelo's effectiveness. These qualities allow a fighter to strategically determine when an exchange occurs. The angles only apply to Canelo from the waist up, so tactically, he is a master, but strategically, he is often ceding the initiative to his opponent (this could be a shortcoming, but his speed and timing are sublime). In the case of war, and in the ring I will say "strategic" as this: getting one side to dictate when the exchanges happen. "Tactically", I say: how the two side manage to carry themselves once the 'fur starts flying'.

To use a historic parallel (that may sound pretentious, but is still valid, so damn the torpedoes!), one needs to look only so far as Hannibal Barca of Carthage, who was a tactical mastermind, but could not leverage his ability and forces on a strategic level to secure victory over the Romans (even though they unofficially ceded much of the countryside of Italy to Hannibal after the Battle of Cannae in 216 B.C., until about 204 B.C.). Napoleon Bonaparte, by contrast, would always use his strategic acumen to gain 'local superiority' over his foe so that, even if they were more tactically inclined on the battlefield, the conditions that Napoleon placed on the battle's setting invariably allowed for him to secure victory (at Waterloo, he was not able to control the strategic variables, and this contributed to his ultimate failure - he was never savvy enough - and was rotting from disease from this point - as a tactical artisan). Sun Tzu offers invaluable soundbites here, and the following is as true in 6th Century B.C. as it is in prizefighting: "he who knows when he can fight and when he cannot, will be victorious."

If Canelo can't get past the distance, timing, and jab of Golovkin, he will tire out and lose his tactical advantages. Can he make GGG respect his power in a way that would alter the momentum of the fight? Few have had much consistent success so far. He certainly shouldn't take the fight to Golovkin because he will be demolished, so he is arguably at the mercy of the strategically superior fighter.

Though, since my opinion is just that - an opinion - I will have to wait and see. Canelo is coming into this fight with a tidal wave of confidence and belief in his own ability. His will and speed may overwhelm the seemingly aging and static GGG. I'm open to that, but I give the natural MW with the better jab and strategic acumen the slight edge.

 

[Shoemaker]

Yup. I agree 100%. We can't expect Canelo to start moving his feet. Everyone could benefit from good feet, though. When we lack something, it becomes a pattern to exploit.

That's true. On the other side, Manny had very fast feet and that's what did him in against Marquez in the 4th fight. Admittedly it took Juan over 40 rounds to really exploit that but still. Everything is a potential opportunity (pretty sure you've said that before - I'm probably plagiarizing). I don't think fast feet or slow feet are good or bad. It's more about smart feet. it's all about being in position to throw a good punch.

Golovkin is a pretty good example. His feet are hardly fast, but he regularly finds himself in position to land heavy punches.

I don't think Canelo gets as much credit for it either, his ability to roll punches tends to overshadow it. His feet are relatively slow, sure, but he's regularly in a position to sit down and throw combinations that land. I suppose you could point at Lara, but then someone else could just as easily point at Jacobs (who doesn't have the same elusive reputation).



Interesting to hear your take on strategy/tactics. I always saw strategy as the high level objective (I.e. control distance) and the tactics being the specific things that a fighter would do based on their own talents and skills to accomplish that objective. I don't think our takes are necessarily mutually exclusive.

 

[wilddeuces]

That's true. On the other side, Manny had very fast feet and that's what did him in against Marquez in the 4th fight. Admittedly it took Juan over 40 rounds to really exploit that but still. Everything is a potential opportunity (pretty sure you've said that before - I'm probably plagiarizing). I don't think fast feet or slow feet are good or bad. It's more about smart feet. it's all about being in position to throw a good punch.

Golovkin is a pretty good example. His feet are hardly fast, but he regularly finds himself in position to land heavy punches.

I don't think Canelo gets as much credit for it either, his ability to roll punches tends to overshadow it. His feet are relatively slow, sure, but he's regularly in a position to sit down and throw combinations that land. I suppose you could point at Lara, but then someone else could just as easily point at Jacobs (who doesn't have the same elusive reputation).



Interesting to hear your take on strategy/tactics. I always saw strategy as the high level objective (I.e. control distance) and the tactics being the specific things that a fighter would do based on their own talents and skills to accomplish that objective. I don't think our takes are necessarily mutually exclusive.

Yeah, I mean, I don't think his feet are peg legs or anything. Canelo is balanced and good to hit with both hands from advantageous spots, but I think his opponent comes to him to make that happen. His feet become a turret from which he launches his shots. He could plant his feet and have almost the same effect. So it's that upper body movement, timing and sharp hitting that make the lack of feet almost a moot point when the fight gets to that point - he's aces. Everything leading up to that exchange though isn't where he is at his strongest.

Not mutually exclusive at all, in fact, if there was a Venn Diagram it would have a lot of overlap. Strategy = macro (big picture, getting you to the battle), tactics = micro (what happens in those moments where battle occurs).

 

[Marc A]

I this case I feel that Canelo's slow feet and improved upper body movement is going help in this fight

It's not secret GGG can't fight moving backwards and that pressure Canelo will give to GGG in his face and while getting tagged with counters will help tremendously in this fight

My biggest concern is he sometimes lets his discipline go , but with GGG I hope he will have an elevated sense of awareness Not to slack

Yes GGG is nice but he is most definitely selling it

I like him more to be genuine, it comes off better

 

[Marc A]

Well Brook was a welterweight champ, Danny didn't have the true WBA belt; really the IBF belt was won from Lemieux, who was legitimate champ at the time. I think Golovkin is wrong there in saying first real champ, unless he means lineal champion, which Canelo is by virtue of beating Cotto who beat Martinez who beat...

I agree almost disrespectful, whomever is tellling him to say that (Abel) needs to stop let him be him

Let the villains Oscar And GGG promoter sell it

 

[nastyleft]

GGG/Brook is the weirdest fight. Golovkin stops Brook inside 5 rounds, and people used it as the reason Brook would beat Spence and why Golovkin is slipping.

The Great Emporer Gennady Golovkin was shown to be human and not a Cyborg killing machine, and everyone had to start looking for excuses. He's slipping.......He's on the backside of his prime.....

Do any of these guys think he (GGG) believes that? Then why are excited for this fight if he's been so "beatable" his last two fights?
The winner should get his props no matter what, no excuses, guys...

 

[HuskySamoan]

He looked lazy and rushed it against Brook, no doubt, and this is just as logical a deduction as yours. He wasn't getting beaten up on points is very very subjective. For four rounds, Kell coud get two, GGG would get two, but to say it was a landslide is utter bias. Though, his subsequent fight against Jacobs, who is probably the second best in the division, shows that he hasn't slowed. He took it to a big guy, with skills, and a massive punch and showed that he wasn't slow, he was just fighting someone that is probably underappreciated in the boxing game. What about GGG was fast to begin with? How did he slow when he kept going at Jacobs for 12 rounds and won a close fight? Where is the slowness? Jacobs didn't want to be hit, so he didn't even sit down on his own punches. It's real hard to knock someone out who is sacrificing sitting down on their own punches to move out of the way of GGG's. I can't state this enough, Jacobs is a huge MW that is pretty fast and athletic. That's a tough combination. Who else in the MW division could have done what GGG did? Quillin sure didn't, and he is legit, even if we didn't get to see much that night. You say that GGG doesn't make adjustments, and I say, there's room for error in your observation. He applies pressure and builds momentu; this is his M.O. But he also modifies when, and where he chooses to throw his punches. The right uppercut off the jab to Jacobs, but the way caught him. As did his doubling up, on his right hand. I'm not saying GGG is some God God God, nor am I saying that he makes adjustments like some of the more noteworthy 'boxer' types throughout the sport's rich history, but I am saying that he modifies things according to what his fighter gives him. He does it enough to win this much.

Can Canelo take away the best jab at MW? Khan's thwarted his defensive timing until Khan stopped doing what worked (ironically, you believe that GGG was being rolled by Brook on the cards, but this is actually a more valid observation for Canelo vs Khan). Mayweather's jab did this, too (among other things, yes, things that don't apply to GGG; fair play). Lara's did. Even full body feints from Smith did enough to bait Alvarez into moving into a bad position (along the ropes) back in September. I would be surprised if Canelo has the kind of power that Jacobs or Stevens does and look how those fights went. Lemiuex must have - to quote Million Dollar Baby - "a left hook that could move a Sherman tank" because GGG jabbed and moved to neutralize that all night. And let's not forget who the seasoned MW is in this fight. Alvarez is fighting a legit puncher that always finds a way to stop OR knockdown his opponents at MW. Always. Like, without fail in recent memory. Canelo is gonna have to be on a mental and phsical hair-trigger all night while Golovkin chooses when he wants to engage. With this very important point in mind, answer me:
Who gets more tired coping with that pressure? (Canelo)
Who, typically, gets more tired throughout their fights and takes breaks that cost them rounds? (Canelo)
Who is going to have to wait on the other? (Canelo)

Age matters, but every fighter has so many fights in them (look at Big George). Mayweather took care of himself and boxed until he was, what 38? Golovkin doesn't go in there and get demolished in fights and take punches left, right and centre. To say that he is 35 is true, and statistically, fighters begin to fade - according to their prevailing DNA and lifestyles - by their mid-thirties. But the fighters that stay effective into their late 30's are ones that never relied on their God-given physical talents to begin with (Gamboa, Pascal to a strong degree) or had their speed or their physicality at the centrepiece of their success. Golovkin fights a positional game - in spite of what people think. He's a blackjack held by a chess player (but, admittedly, you can only use that weapon in so many ways). I don't think 35 is as big a deal to his decline as it is to, say, Pacquiao.

Of course, I could be wrong.

I didn't say GGG was getting beaten up on points? I never said nor implied anything was a landslide in that fight either? I never said GGG was fast, I just said he seems to be slowing down a bit. I didn't say GGG doesn't make adjustments, I just noted in his last 2 fights he seemingly failed to make adjustments when he surely needed to, that decision could have easily went to Jacobs and vs Brook, GGG was taking tons of damage and rather than making adjustments he just out attritioned Brook and continued to take lots of damage. This is in no way me saying GGG doesn't or can't make adjustments though.

Again, I never said, implied nor thought GGG was getting rolled on the scorecards I just said GGG was getting beaten up at points in the fight, which he was but he wasn't losing the fight...they were both beating each other up and taking a lot of damage.

Age matters period. Mileage matters a lot more than age even, GGG has a 350 fight illustrious decade+ long amateur career at a high level even before his professional career. He's 35, athletic peak performance in boxing is typically 28-32, then there's a gradual but noticeable drop off from 33-36, around 37 fighters typically fall off a cliff. You're citing examples of exceptions and explaining to me that fighters who rely on athletic and natural abilities usually age worse than fighters who are more technical..I know this but regardless I still feel GGG being 35, coming off 2 rough performances, having so many miles from his amateur career and the fact that I personally see him slowing down and looking a bit tenacious these days is relevant and talking this fight I feel it's important to know Canelo is 26 and on the upside of his prime still refining his craft.

 

[PUO3]

GGG/Brook is the weirdest fight. Golovkin stops Brook inside 5 rounds, and people used it as the reason Brook would beat Spence and why Golovkin is slipping.

I cant believe its still going lmao

 

[quincy k]

It's called respect for a worthy opponent... You guys always want to claim its fake hype, he's full of shit or whatever, but what if he's just being genuine. Have we ever seen GGG be anything other than that in interviews??? It's no secret that both guys will be facing the toughest challenge of their careers.They both know that and expect both of them to come in at their best.

As far as Canelo hitting harder...it's all in the set-up. Canelo's punches take more effect on guys becasue he catches them in traps, looking the other way and nifty counters. If they were all at a "Dave an Busters" and hitting the Punch-O-Meter, maybe Canelo would be behind Lemieux and Jacobs; but in the ring the kid for sure puts the right amount of leverage to KO anybody.

i ve mentioned this before, canelo has gone 48 rounds with four top ten ranked 154s and has one kd and nowhere near stoppng any of them

even if golovkin is no longer prime canelo is going to present minimal problems for gennady

 

[Old Cat]

This thread gives me hope for the interwebs, thoughtful stuff.

 

[LangfordBarrow]

Just noticed that. How does that even work? Is there a way to get more likes on here?

Be cooler...

 

[wilddeuces]

I didn't say GGG was getting beaten up on points? I never said nor implied anything was a landslide in that fight either? I never said GGG was fast, I just said he seems to be slowing down a bit. I didn't say GGG doesn't make adjustments, I just noted in his last 2 fights he seemingly failed to make adjustments when he surely needed to, that decision could have easily went to Jacobs and vs Brook, GGG was taking tons of damage and rather than making adjustments he just out attritioned Brook and continued to take lots of damage. This is in no way me saying GGG doesn't or can't make adjustments though.

Again, I never said, implied nor thought GGG was getting rolled on the scorecards I just said GGG was getting beaten up at points in the fight, which he was but he wasn't losing the fight...they were both beating each other up and taking a lot of damage.

Age matters period. Mileage matters a lot more than age even, GGG has a 350 fight illustrious decade+ long amateur career at a high level even before his professional career. He's 35, athletic peak performance in boxing is typically 28-32, then there's a gradual but noticeable drop off from 33-36, around 37 fighters typically fall off a cliff. You're citing examples of exceptions and explaining to me that fighters who rely on athletic and natural abilities usually age worse than fighters who are more technical..I know this but regardless I still feel GGG being 35, coming off 2 rough performances, having so many miles from his amateur career and the fact that I personally see him slowing down and looking a bit tenacious these days is relevant and talking this fight I feel it's important to know Canelo is 26 and on the upside of his prime still refining his craft.

I'm citing athleticism as a centre piece that, when it gives way with age, the results are marked. I made such a point because GGG doesn't rely on it as much so the decline won't be as significant to his performance. Though, as I said and you agree, the little bit may well be there. The last two performances I fell were more attributable to the nature of his opponents as boxers that are in their prime and move smart. Even Babe Ruth didn't hit home runs every time.

Thank you for clearing up your remark about points because it was misleading.

 

[quincy k]

I'm citing athleticism as a centre piece that, when it gives way with age, the results are marked. I made such a point because GGG doesn't rely on it as much so the decline won't be as significant to his performance. Though, as I said and you agree, the little bit may well be there. The last two performances I fell were more attributable to the nature of his opponents as boxers that are in their prime and move smart. Even Babe Ruth didn't hit home runs every time.

Thank you for clearing up your remark about points because it was misleading.

golovkin relies heavily on output that brings pressure as that is his best defense.

he averaged around 70-75 punches thrown a round up until brook and jacobs where he threw 50-60

if he only throws 50 punches/round against canelo then alvarez could win a decision. he throws 70-75, alvarez has very little chance as he will only throw 40, if that.

 

[wilddeuces]

golovkin relies heavily on output that brings pressure as that is his best defense.

he averaged around 70-75 punches thrown a round up until brook and jacobs where he threw 50-60

if he only throws 50 punches/round against canelo then alvarez could win a decision. he throws 70-75, alvarez has very little chance as he will only throw 40, if that.

The output is dependent on establishing position. The success of Golovkin's smart positioning with his feet and his control of distance helps him put his opponents in bad spots where the accumulation of punches can happen. Canelo doesn't move his feet and puts himself into bad spots along the ropes way too easily. If you have less maneuverability, Golovkin will find you and the punches will add up. Canelo doesn't move his feet in a way that defensively out-positions the offensive maneuvering of Golovkin. As such, he will be at the strategic mercy of Golovkin, even if Canelo has tactical advantages in many spots. If Canelo gives the distance to GGG then GGG will be able to time his engagements off his better distance control and jab. Golovkin can hit Canelo's body, which is still there to be hit when he dips, ducks, weaves and rolls around. Hell, Golovkin can beat up Canelo's arms and slow them down if he wants too.

The real question in this fight is the severity of each man's power. Canelo made Cotto tentative when they fought for the WBC and lineal middleweight titles at 154, but then again, Cotto was never a 160 pound fighter. If Canelo can't get Golovkin's respect with his own power, Golovkin stays in control. The body work will be interesting, but both men can hit there, but Canelo might have the speed and countering ability in these spots. And looking at Canelo's KO rate against high level opponents makes me wonder if he can blunt GGG's offense often enough to allow doubt to seep in.

In spite of how one-sided I may be sounding in this thread, I do think that it's a 50/50 fight. Maybe a bit more in Golovkin's favour because I believe a good big guy beats a good littler guy moving up into that weight class, and while styles make fights, both men's styles play into each other equally, so I find myself circling back to the fact that weight classes exist for a reason.

Gonna be a helluva fight.

 

[quincy k]

i agree with what you are saying that applies to jacobs but in no way shouldve golovkin only averaged 60 punches/round against brook. there was rumor that gennady was sick(he was ill against rosado and ouma) but if not golovkin could be on the decline. we dont know how good danny jacobs is so golovkins dimished output could be justified if the miracle man moves to 168 and gives degale, groves or jack a very close fight. unfortunately we dont have that luxury hence the close odds on canelo.

i dont think golovkin has faded signifigantly and i believe that canelo will get abused in september, as bad as lemuiex if not worse. there will be an exchange early, and both fighters will know the difference between a middleweight and a jmw, canelo not being a 160. 5'7" guys generally dont do well at 154 let alone 160.

in mexico, golovkin will probably get as low as -140 and the ko prop at +150 which to me is a gift if the gennady that fought lemuiex still exists.

 

[nastyleft]

i ve mentioned this before, canelo has gone 48 rounds with four top ten ranked 154s and has one kd and nowhere near stoppng any of them...

Didnt he KO Kirkland to the head and Smith to the body? and 3 out of his last 4 were won by KO/TKO?

 

[quincy k]

Didnt he KO Kirkland to the head and Smith to the body? and 3 out of his last 4 were won by KO/TKO?

james kirkland might be a very good puncher but he at this point has very poor punch resistance.

with 16 ounce gloves and headgear he was kd in sparring by 147 porter when shawn was training for pauli malignaggi

i really dont want to look for the link but frank warren himself said liam smith is not a world level fighter and glass jawed 140-147 kahn asked to fight him.

koing khan, smith and kirkland is an illusion. not hurting, let alone kd cotto or shot chavez, is not an illusion

 

[Marc A]

james kirkland might be a very good puncher but he at this point has very poor punch resistance.

with 16 ounce gloves and headgear he was kd in sparring by 147 porter when shawn was training for pauli malignaggi

i really dont want to look for the link but frank warren himself said liam smith is not a world level fighter and glass jawed 140-147 kahn asked to fight him.

koing khan, smith and kirkland is an illusion. not hurting, let alone kd cotto or shot chavez, is not an illusion

Let me ask you this: do you feel GGG is an elite fighter?