Forum preservation thread

[Kanka]

Okay

 

[jtwarwagon4life]

Big difference between only a few and only him? I don't know why you keep twisting words all the time

It makes no difference to my argument, at all, whether none or only a few thais can do well in kickboxing. It's bullshit either way. The idea which I am railing against is that kickboxing is something which good thais generally can't succeed at, which would imply that thais who have succeeded are somehow special. It isn't and they aren't.

Obviously any decent thai will give someone of QJLs caliber a good fight and either lose or beat him, but i don't think anyone on here is surprised of the outcome of that fight?

I have no idea what you mean here. If any decent thai will give QJL, or someone of similar calibre, a good fight, then why are you insisting that only a handful of thais can succeed at kickboxing? QJL is the 2nd most accomplished fighter at 65kg, if you can give him a good fight or beat him, then you have already succeeded at kickboxing and probably stand a good chance of dominating your division. And Notakrit isn't even a decent thai at this point in time.

Qui Jian Liang is also a 27 year old non elite muay thai fighter who does well in kickboxing so that comparison doesn't even make sense

I never compared Nopakrit and QJL, you can't. 27 for a thai is way older than 27 for a nonthai. Moreover, QJL is one of the most established kickboxers in the world at 65kg, while Notakrit may never have kickboxed before. What I was clearly doing was showing that, despite being well past his prime (27 years old) and no longer even a decent fighter, with very little experience, Notakrit was still able to give QJL a tough fight. And for that reason thais who are actually in their prime will probably do even better, which would make them one of the best kickboxers at 65kgs. Which would, by any standard, make them a success case.

Since you're making those weird comparisons to prove a point i might aswell mention the Sangmanee fight (which i don't recall doing prior to this) because obviously the fight would have looked different if it was a 5 round stadium bout.

Sangmanee had trouble against a random punch heavy guy who was just slightly bigger in Top King.

The fight probably would have looked different if it was a 5 round stadium bout, but that isn't the point. It was a muay thai bout, not a kickboxing bout, so there is no relevance to this discussion.

Many thais can enter top 5 in 65 and 70 kg but i guess Sittichai was speaking relatively to his own succes in his career.

Now who's twisting who's words? And if you believe that so many thais can enter the top 5, then why in the fuck would you endorse what Sittichai said in the first place?

If it's so easy to dominate the division you would think that there would be more incentive for out of prime thais or even farangs that fight out of thai gyms to do so.

What the fuck do farangs fighting out of Thai gyms have to do with anything? Many nonthais who train at thai gyms try their hand at kickboxing, and successfully. Unlike Thais they are given regular opportunities to compete in kickboxing. Thais who are out of their primes make up the majority of the guys who do get kickboxing opportunities. Often the guys are retired or semiretired and living or fighting abroad and so they have connections who get them kickboxing bouts.

Do you honestly believe that most thais, whether in their prime or not, wouldn't love the opportunity to compete in kickboxing, let alone have the sort of success that Sittichai has had? But what? They know that they wouldn't succeed, so they don't bother? I have no idea what you are even saying. I already know why there are only a handful of Thais who dominate kickboxing, I've written about it at length.

http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/glory-40-and-41-thai-match-ups.3505519/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-kickfighting-establishment-is-rotten-to-the-core.3499125/

 

[Snubnoze707]

"The idea which I am railing against is that kickboxing is something which good thais generally can't succeed at"

That certainly isn't an idea that is accepted here. If that is what you are gathering you are mistaken.

People will acknowledge that the pace and focus of offensive strategies are generally different in Kickboxing so it's a good idea to train for those differences. Saenchai has even acknowledged that.

 

[jtwarwagon4life]

"The idea which I am railing against is that kickboxing is something which good thais generally can't succeed at"

That certainly isn't an idea that is accepted here. If that is what you are gathering you are mistaken.

Sittichai disagrees, so you're wrong.

 

[Kanka]

It does definitely makes a difference to your argument. You're acting as if people on here said that no thais can succeed. You should at least be clear in what you are arguing against instead of making up things to mock and argue against.

I've already explained the reason why i think Sittichai said what he said like many times. I'm not twisting anyones words, just telling my interpretation of it. You on the other hand are twisting my words and saying i i said Sittichai said no other thai could ever succeed in kickboxing which i never said. When i say succesful i'm not talking about Josh Jauncey or Mohamed Mezouari level succes. I'm talking about the real top tiers. The entire 70 kg division is weak nowadays anyway.

 

[Kanka]

Ok so why aren't thai promoters signing Kyshenko even if he could probably beat all thais in that weight category? Discriminaition against white people!!!!

And why aren't Youssef Boughanem and Jimmy Viennot getting any KB fights? Discrimination aswell!!!

Yeah no have fun with this thread i'm done here

 

[SuperLuigi]

Mission accomplished @Cocakillbana - awful, pointless discussion now happens here. Great idea.

I think it actually will be a great idea if it succeeds in keeping it all in one thread. I find the topic pointless too but I like that people who feel strongly about it can discuss it freely here without derailing other threads.

 

[jtwarwagon4life]

And why aren't Youssef Boughanem and Jimmy Viennot getting any KB fights? Discrimination aswell!!!

They are you idiot. It's actually quite difficult to find notable nonthai nak muays who haven't gotten kickboxing opportunities, regardless of weight.

Ok so why aren't thai promoters signing Kyshenko even if he could probably beat all thais in that weight category? Discriminaition against white people!!!!

What Thai promoters are you even talking about? How many Thai fighters at 80kgs do you even know? How many Thais at 80kgs fight in the stadiums on even a semiregular basis? I can't even name one.

I already pointed out all of this before. You just throw a fit and look for an excuse run away as soon as someone points out how stupid you are.

 

[UWanaPlayDaGame]

I think it actually will be a great idea if it succeeds in keeping it all in one thread. I find the topic pointless too but I like that people who feel strongly about it can discuss it freely here without derailing other threads.

from what I see it's working - which means all other threads are dead.

 

[Kanka]

Those fights are as relevant as the fights a few thais (including thanonchai and yodwicha) had in china a while ago. I guess we'll see them dominating the KB scene soon enough then. All good

from what I see it's working - which means all other threads are dead.

 

[jtwarwagon4life]

It does definitely makes a difference to your argument. You're acting as if people on here said that no thais can succeed. You should at least be clear in what you are arguing against instead of making up things to mock and argue against.

I've already explained the reason why i think Sittichai said what he said like many times. I'm not twisting anyones words, just telling my interpretation of it. You on the other hand are twisting my words and saying i i said Sittichai said no other thai could ever succeed in kickboxing which i never said. When i say succesful i'm not talking about Josh Jauncey or Mohamed Mezouari level succes. I'm talking about the real top tiers. The entire 70 kg division is weak nowadays anyway.

Sittichai said only a few thais can succeed in kickboxing, therefore those guys are special. Not true. You endorsed this bullshit.

Many thais can enter top 5 in 65 and 70 kg but i guess Sittichai was speaking relatively to his own succes in his career.

If someone is a top five kickboxer, then I would assume that would make them a top tier fighter. And even if the standard was achieving something comparable to what Sittichai has, which seems unreasonably high to qualify as "successful" lots of thais could do exactly that too. Sittichai ain't even the only thai who is dominating his weight class right now. Look what happened once Sittichai actually had to face a Thai in kickboxing, he was definitively beaten for the first time.

This whole discussion goes back to me complaining as to more Thais dont get opportunities in kickboxing and you brought up that Sittichai doesnt think that many could be successful in kickboxing right now. I now have no idea what you were trying to say back then. I had previously assumed that you thought that the fact that only a few thais could "succeed" was meant to justify the fact that they are given limited opportunities, but now I have absolutely no clue. Because now according to you having success in this context means having success which is comparable to what Sittichai has achieved in his career? Is that right? Because Sittichai is generally seen as the pound 4 pound #1 and the best 70kg fighter of his generation. That seems like an extremely unreasonable standard to hold a fighter in order that they should be at Sittichai's level in order to really be a worth while piece of a kickboxing promotion. What the fuck was the point of your original comment?

 

[Cocakillbana]

What Thai promoters are you even talking about? How many Thai fighters at 80kgs do you even know? How many Thais at 80kgs fight in the stadiums on even a semiregular basis? I can't even name one.

Yeah, I'm not sure why Kanka keeps going back to this even after it's been explained several times. Pretty straightforward.

 

[Kanka]

Sittichai said only a few thais can succeed in kickboxing, therefore those guys are special. Not true. You endorsed this bullshit.



If someone is a top five kickboxer, then I would assume that would make them a top tier fighter. And even if the standard was achieving something comparable to what Sittichai has, which seems unreasonably high to qualify as "successful" lots of thais could do exactly that too. Sittichai ain't even the only thai who is dominating his weight class right now. Look what happened once Sittichai actually had to face a Thai in kickboxing, he was definitively beaten for the first time.

This whole discussion goes back to me complaining as to more Thais dont get opportunities in kickboxing and you brought up that Sittichai doesnt think that many could be successful in kickboxing right now. I now have no idea what you were trying to say back then. I had previously assumed that you thought that the fact that only a few thais could "succeed" was meant to justify the fact that they are given limited opportunities, but now I have absolutely no clue. Because now according to you having success in this context means having success which is comparable to what Sittichai has achieved in his career? Is that right? Because Sittichai is generally seen as the pound 4 pound #1 and the best 70kg fighter of his generation. That seems like an extremely unreasonable standard to hold a fighter in order that they should be at Sittichai's level in order to really be a worth while piece of a kickboxing promotion. What the fuck was the point of your original comment?

Look at the rankings of any kickboxing organisation right now and it would be common sense that thais can enter top 5 easily i. Not a very controversial or rare thought, probably not even among dutch/moroccan fans that have at least some muay thai knowledge. In that context the only reasonable interpretation of what Sittichai was that only a few thais being able to do what he does. I don't even have the footage anymore and i don't necessarily agree with him but i strongly oppose the idea of him saying, and me saying that no thai could succeed, which you keep bringing up

 

[Kanka]

They are you idiot. It's actually quite difficult to find notable nonthai nak muays who haven't gotten kickboxing opportunities, regardless of weight.





What Thai promoters are you even talking about? How many Thai fighters at 80kgs do you even know? How many Thais at 80kgs fight in the stadiums on even a semiregular basis? I can't even name one.

I already pointed out all of this before. You just throw a fit and look for an excuse run away as soon as someone points out how stupid you are.

It was a sarcastic reaction to your equally dumb sarcastic comments.

I'm not running away at all just because i was wrong about Jimmy Viennot and Youssef lol. But i've probably said everything i wanted to say in other threads this thread will only go in circles with childish name calling back and fourth. Not really my thing. I'm sure JJ, Dastardly Mass and OngBrockBoy can fill in for those type of things

 

[jtwarwagon4life]

Look at the rankings of any kickboxing organisation right now and it would be common sense that thais can enter top 5 easily i. Not a very controversial or rare thought, probably not even among dutch/moroccan fans that have at least some muay thai knowledge.

This is not a commonly held belief at all. If it was, kickboxing people would stop bringing up how such and such a thai had successfully completed the transition from muay thai to kickboxing, where others had failed etc. etc.

 

[Snubnoze707]

This is not a commonly held belief at all. If it was, kickboxing people would stop bringing up how such and such a thai had successfully completed the transition from muay thai to kickboxing, where others had failed etc. etc.

How does perpetuating an idea that some kind of transition is required for a Thai to succeed, true or false, dispute the notion that there is a general acceptance that Thais can be in the top 5? You're arguements aren't even rational, you're just arguing to argue at this point...

 

[Kim Jong Un]

I got high today and I was wondering, if MMA had Thai scoring, what would it be like?

 

[Hagelslag2]

I got high today and I was wondering, if MMA had Thai scoring, what would it be like?

Wouldn't it be quite the same as the unified rules, in the sense that takedowns and wrestling in general are overvalued just as some claim kicks and knees are overvalued in Muay Thai?

 

[jtwarwagon4life]

How does perpetuating an idea that some kind of transition is required for a Thai to succeed, true or false, dispute the notion that there is a general acceptance that Thais can be in the top 5? You're arguements aren't even rational, you're just arguing to argue at this point...

That aint what people say. They say who knows whether Thai so and so will even succeed in kickboxing because they have to make a big transition to kickboxing, give up their traditional stylings, etc. It isn't meant to be a trivial observation that in order to succeed at kickboxing, they had to do or train kickboxing first. People genuinely believe that Thais either struggle to make the transition to kickboxing successfully or that it is very hit or miss.

And now my words are being twisted.

 

[UWanaPlayDaGame]

That aint what people say. They say who knows whether Thai so and so will even succeed in kickboxing because they have to make a big transition to kickboxing, give up their traditional stylings, etc. It isn't meant to be a trivial observation that in order to succeed at kickboxing, they had to do or train kickboxing first. People genuinely believe that Thais either struggle to make the transition to kickboxing successfully or that it is very hit or miss.

you should be talking this talk at twitter towards the Joe Rogans and Valtellinis of the world - they actually think like this whether it's due ignorance or bias.

but even then, the fact that they hold the thais to such a high standard just shows how much respect the thais demand. undersized Petpanomrung can win a Glory tournament with next to zero kickboxing experience and it still warrants criticism that he didn't completely dominate.