Dutch kickboxing

[Luke Rockholds (?) kick]

I just want to discuss Dutch kickboxing tactics not only that but its origins also I I train in it so just discuss its uses in MMA I train it MMA wise so I guess it's different so fire away and discuss this topic.

 

[RichardN7]

Dutch kickboxing isn't really the safest bet for MMA striking imo. Dutch guys like combos, exchanges, staying in the pocket and keeping a high shield guard up. All very dangerous. 4oz gloves will go through or around the high shield. They are also much more damaging so where you could eat some shots with boxing gloves, those same shots could rock you badly or cut you with MMA gloves. Also, high guard means you can't defend takedowns well, and the predictable trend of finishing combos with a kick means wrestlers can have their way if they time it.
Aldo has integrated dutch kickboxing relatively well, so you can look at him for an example of how to pull it off. Still, I'd never fight dutch-style in an MMA fight. Too many risks for me.
Conor McGregor has a perfect striking game for MMA. His defense consists of simply not being there. Where Aldo might choose to shell up and risk getting tagged, Conor gets out of the way completely. No risk involved. He keeps his distance to minimize the chance of the opponent getting lucky, and instead of sticking to combos, only lets one or two powerful shots go in sequence, then exits. 4oz gloves amplify the single shots' power. Much less risk and much more reward that way. Only problem is, you have to be the taller guy to pull it off. It's not an efficient way to fight if you've a shorter reach (eg, Conor vs Diaz). If that is the case, a good example might be RDA. Pre-USADA, he was starching tall outside fighters like Pettis. Had a great low kick and powerful left hand. Decent Muay Thai and dangerous pressure boxing. Again, not really dutch style, but I think his way is better adapted to MMA.

 

[hitman97]

@RichardN7 this, i think the best striking combination for mma is boxing + muay thai, boxers have the best defense and movement of all striking styles, something who translate perfectly on mma, just look cody gardbrant, mcgregor and other mma strikers with good boxing, later, muay thai provides you of outside leg kicks, body and head kicks, teeps, and good striking on the clinch witht knees and elbows, elbows are extremely useful on the ground for ground and pound and if the rules allow it knees are extremely dangerous on the ground, see rizin, pride or one FC.

i don't think any style of kickboxing is extremely useful for MMA, nor dutch, american, or other european styles, maybe japanese kickboxing, think that for wrestling and the gloves MMA is much more punched base than any style of kickboxing, and i would say muay thai kicks are faster, more secure against wrestlers than other kickboxing kicks, because in muay thai the rival can catch your kick and punish you with a strike or a sweep, like MMA and unlike other styles of kickboxing.

 

[RichardN7]

Upon further thought, the Blackzilians team have Henri Hooft as a coach, who teaches a dutch-style kickboxing approach to striking. Rumble, Michael Johnson, etc., are all examples of Dutch Kickboxing more or less successfully applied to MMA. Study them if you want.

 

[king of theRing]

Dutch kickboxing isn't really the safest bet for MMA striking imo. Dutch guys like combos, exchanges, staying in the pocket and keeping a high shield guard up. All very dangerous. 4oz gloves will go through or around the high shield. They are also much more damaging so where you could eat some shots with boxing gloves, those same shots could rock you badly or cut you with MMA gloves. Also, high guard means you can't defend takedowns well, and the predictable trend of finishing combos with a kick means wrestlers can have their way if they time it.
Aldo has integrated dutch kickboxing relatively well, so you can look at him for an example of how to pull it off. Still, I'd never fight dutch-style in an MMA fight. Too many risks for me.
Conor McGregor has a perfect striking game for MMA. His defense consists of simply not being there. Where Aldo might choose to shell up and risk getting tagged, Conor gets out of the way completely. No risk involved. He keeps his distance to minimize the chance of the opponent getting lucky, and instead of sticking to combos, only lets one or two powerful shots go in sequence, then exits. 4oz gloves amplify the single shots' power. Much less risk and much more reward that way. Only problem is, you have to be the taller guy to pull it off. It's not an efficient way to fight if you've a shorter reach (eg, Conor vs Diaz). If that is the case, a good example might be RDA. Pre-USADA, he was starching tall outside fighters like Pettis. Had a great low kick and powerful left hand. Decent Muay Thai and dangerous pressure boxing. Again, not really dutch style, but I think his way is better adapted to MMA.

Actually most Dutch guys fight in MMA with their hands very low compared if they were in kickboxing

 

[king of theRing]

also mate, wAtch who you learn it from. Most mma gyms these days say they teach Dutch kickboxing, but they really dont. Only a handful of guys in America really know the style.

I got taught mainly crappy American kickboxing, then decent muay thai(and actual coach from ThaiLand till he retired here) then learned from my former coach who trained with Lucien carbin for about 10 years. Once he taught me, I really learned a good bit of what Dutch style really is, then if I ever walked into an mma gym or a North American based muay thai gym, they would try and do dutch, but really dont understand it.

All they do is copy a technique off YouTube, but couldn't explain it in precise detail if their life depended on it.

 

[Kim Jong Un]

Rumble Johnson is the grand master of Dutch style for MMA. I think its a style that works very well for a specific body type, that is the typical bulky but fit LHW looking guy with big power. Most guys though will have to integrate more movement like McGregor and Cruz.

 

[Enriko davidson]

Why do so many westerners have such a hard on for Dutch style kickboxing? How many times have we seen a muaythai fighter school a dutch kickboxer?

 

[Will Samuelson]

Why do so many westerners have such a hard on for Dutch style kickboxing? How many times have we seen a muaythai fighter school a dutch kickboxer?

90s and 2000s. K1 HW scene showed the best of Holland. At HW, less people incorporate Thai style and even less who do actually go Thai Vs. Dutch style as we are seeing now in Glory.

Mostly because Westerners are 2nd hand to real Thai movement/understanding, even when they throw a more Thai styled roundhouse.

The best and under utlised kick in both MMA and KB = the teep.
The teep is down the pecking order of Kb. Shame.

 

[nino]

I just want to discuss Dutch kickboxing tactics not only that but its origins also I I train in it so just discuss its uses in MMA I train it MMA wise so I guess it's different so fire away and discuss this topic.

Dutch style isn't good for in MMA , dutch fighters are mostly standing to flat footed and have a high guard shield. In mma parrying and being light on the feet is better

 

[nino]

Why do so many westerners have such a hard on for Dutch style kickboxing? How many times have we seen a muaythai fighter school a dutch kickboxer?

Roosmalen vs Sittichai Petrosyan vs Souwer in K1. Dutch fighters have a really hard time with muay thai fighters. In Holland you won't see so many southpaws. Thats why it is so hard for dutch style kickboxers to deal with southpaws

 

[king of theRing]

Dutch style isn't good for in MMA , dutch fighters are mostly standing to flat footed and have a high guard shield. In mma parrying and being light on the feet is better

Flat footed I wouldn't say, cause they move a lot more, but not high guard. All the natural ones I've seen that fought in Holland usually has their hands down and parries or tries to slip strikes

 

[BJJ Coffee Drinker]

also mate, wAtch who you learn it from. Most mma gyms these days say they teach Dutch kickboxing, but they really dont. Only a handful of guys in America really know the style.

I got taught mainly crappy American kickboxing, then decent muay thai(and actual coach from ThaiLand till he retired here) then learned from my former coach who trained with Lucien carbin for about 10 years. Once he taught me, I really learned a good bit of what Dutch style really is, then if I ever walked into an mma gym or a North American based muay thai gym, they would try and do dutch, but really dont understand it.

All they do is copy a technique off YouTube, but couldn't explain it in precise detail if their life depended on it.

Can you elaborate more on this and what you mean? I'm very interested in this. My original muay thai coach did not claim to teach dutch style but my teammates often said his style was dutch style. I didn't really understand what that meant and just trained it for years. It was very much combination based but with a strong emphasis on kicking and boxing, depending on the body typee of the fighter, one took precedence but it was usually very well rounded. Training was very drill oriented with partner work done frequently, and sparring was regular of course. This was back in 2005 when the term wasn't used much yet. Now, I hear people throw the term around so much and I basically just watch people teach boxing combinations ending with kicks when they say this. I had wondered why the term "Dutch style kickboxing" just seemed to have exploded the last few years. The style my coach taught seemed just normal to me, as it has been all I have known and don't know enough about others besides thai style traditional, and american kickboxing.

My coach is originally from Japan and has trained there, and gone to thailand and holland to train and coach with some of the old school big names out of there. Rob kaman came for a seminar at out gym before and his style and combination work had a slightly different twist to it, but not very different from what my instructor taught

What are your observations of behavior from coaches tells you they are trying to imitate, but don't understand it?

 

[king of theRing]

Rumble Johnson is the grand master of Dutch style for MMA. I think its a style that works very well for a specific body type, that is the typical bulky but fit LHW looking guy with big power. Most guys though will have to integrate more movement like McGregor and Cruz.

No he is not

 

[king of theRing]

Can you elaborate more on this and what you mean? I'm very interested in this. My original muay thai coach did not claim to teach dutch style but my teammates often said his style was dutch style. I didn't really understand what that meant and just trained it for years. It was very much combination based but with a strong emphasis on kicking and boxing, depending on the body typee of the fighter, one took precedence but it was usually very well rounded. Training was very drill oriented with partner work done frequently, and sparring was regular of course. This was back in 2005 when the term wasn't used much yet. Now, I hear people throw the term around so much and I basically just watch people teach boxing combinations ending with kicks when they say this. I had wondered why the term "Dutch style kickboxing" just seemed to have exploded the last few years. The style my coach taught seemed just normal to me, as it has been all I have known and don't know enough about others besides thai style traditional, and american kickboxing.

My coach is originally from Japan and has trained there, and gone to thailand and holland to train and coach with some of the old school big names out of there. Rob kaman came for a seminar at out gym before and his style and combination work had a slightly different twist to it, but not very different from what my instructor taught

What are your observations of behavior from coaches tells you they are trying to imitate, but don't understand it?

There is alot of variables. From stance, to how you throw kicks, to even how you block them. For an example, this guy at the last gym I trained at. He wasn't the main coach, but a guy who he let's teach the class 1 or 2 days out if week when main coach didn't want to come in.

So he always liked to throw a leg kick, but whether he would counter a right hand, or offensive, he would always step to his left out of way. So all his weight would be in his left leg. So he takes power off the kick for one, but main is he is out of reach and can't keep attacking after doing all that work to set up a low kick.

Stuff like that. And if your coach has that extensive background, sound fine to me. But another is an MMA fighter Tim creduer has his own gym, and his kickboxing class, he promotes " Dutch style" knowing he has never trained with anyone to learn that, and he is mainly a BJJ guy

 

[Kim Jong Un]

No he is not

Okay who do you think does it better?

 

[king of theRing]

Okay who do you think does it better?

Spong, overeem with ease.

 

[RichardN7]

Roosmalen vs Sittichai Petrosyan vs Souwer in K1. Dutch fighters have a really hard time with muay thai fighters. In Holland you won't see so many southpaws. Thats why it is so hard for dutch style kickboxers to deal with southpaws

That's not always the case. Sittichai was also a decorated boxer iirc and Petro's boxing is among the best in K1.
Many times, we've seen Dutch fighters overwhelm and outbox Thais, e.g: Groenhart vs Thongchai and many other examples in smaller promotions I can't think of.
I do much prefer the Thai style, but you can't say that either style has a winning record against the other. Just depends. If the Dutch guy can impose his combos and get in close and avoids the clinch, he'll win. If the Thai guy keeps his distance and beats him up from a far and successfully applies the clinch when in danger, he'll win.

 

[Luke Rockholds (?) kick]

Spong, overeem with ease.

A lot of people disregard tj dillashaw who in my opinion is the best Dutch kick boxer in MMA thanks for the opinions guys keep em coming.

 

[AbeRudder]

That's not always the case. Sittichai was also a decorated boxer iirc and Petro's boxing is among the best in K1.
Many times, we've seen Dutch fighters overwhelm and outbox Thais, e.g: Groenhart vs Thongchai and many other examples in smaller promotions I can't think of.
I do much prefer the Thai style, but you can't say that either style has a winning record against the other. Just depends. If the Dutch guy can impose his combos and get in close and avoids the clinch, he'll win. If the Thai guy keeps his distance and beats him up from a far and successfully applies the clinch when in danger, he'll win.

Compare the performance of thais in kickboxing vs dutch fighters in muay thai. How many dutch fighters had consistent success in muay thai?