Dutch kickboxing

[BJJ Coffee Drinker]

There is alot of variables. From stance, to how you throw kicks, to even how you block them. For an example, this guy at the last gym I trained at. He wasn't the main coach, but a guy who he let's teach the class 1 or 2 days out if week when main coach didn't want to come in.

So he always liked to throw a leg kick, but whether he would counter a right hand, or offensive, he would always step to his left out of way. So all his weight would be in his left leg. So he takes power off the kick for one, but main is he is out of reach and can't keep attacking after doing all that work to set up a low kick.

Ah, so you mean he always basically uses the kick as a fade away/retreating technique and is unable to really follow up on it to use combinations after the kick? Opposed to being able to come forward with it and possibly facilitate temporary stance switching combinations (which Kaman loved to do)?

Stuff like that. And if your coach has that extensive background, sound fine to me. But another is an MMA fighter Tim creduer has his own gym, and his kickboxing class, he promotes " Dutch style" knowing he has never trained with anyone to learn that, and he is mainly a BJJ guy

there have been tons of guys lately in the past few years the I've seen all of a sudden promote "dutch style kickboxing and training" and they all seem to have the same predictable patterns and combos yet their fighters don't really perform anything remotely to what their coaches teach and look more like brawlers that mix in sloppy weak looking kicks into combinations

 

[RichardN7]

Compare the performance of thais in kickboxing vs dutch fighters in muay thai. How many dutch fighters had consistent success in muay thai?

That's not really fair tho
Muay Thai has clinch and elbows which Dutch guys do not practice and have no idea how to apply.
If you look at it that way, then Thais would hold a winning record over the dutch style guys. in kickboxing tho, it's about even.

 

[DastardlyMass]

That's not really fair tho
Muay Thai has clinch and elbows which Dutch guys do not practice and have no idea how to apply.
If you look at it that way, then Thais would hold a winning record over the dutch style guys. in kickboxing tho, it's about even.

but it also goes the other way as the thais spend half their practice time on clinch and elbows and can't use them under kb rules yet they are not getting beaten all the time because of this disadvantage

 

[RichardN7]

but it also goes the other way as the thais spend half their practice time on clinch and elbows and can't use them under kb rules yet they are not getting beaten all the time because of this disadvantage

It's true, but it is easier to be restricted to something you know how to do relatively well than to try and learn something altogether new.
Example I could give is Mayweather and McGregor. Mayweather could never be successful in MMA, whereas McGregor could find some success as a pro boxer if he puts in specific training.

 

[DastardlyMass]

It's true, but it is easier to be restricted to something you know how to do relatively well than to try and learn something altogether new.
Example I could give is Mayweather and McGregor. Mayweather could never be successful in MMA, whereas McGregor could find some success as a pro boxer if he puts in specific training.

yes but those dutch guys can use their best weapons under kb or thai rules. You have thai's like sittichai who rule kickboxing now but when he fought muaythai he was known for his elbows and now can't even use his best weapon and still dominates. Everyone is kickboxing loves talking about how good sittichais left round kick is but in truth he was nothing more than maybe slightly above average kicker in muaythai

 

[AbeRudder]

That's not really fair tho
Muay Thai has clinch and elbows which Dutch guys do not practice and have no idea how to apply.
If you look at it that way, then Thais would hold a winning record over the dutch style guys. in kickboxing tho, it's about even.

If we are talking strictly about kickboxing then the thais were not given many opportunities in kickboxing during the heyday of k1 (we had a 20 page shitshow of a thread on this forum about it lol), Yod for instance, won dominantly in his only k1 fight but was never invited to the GP that year because k1 didn't want thais to be over represented. The main reason we see more thais doing well currently is because the chinese orgs are much more willing to bank on thai talent. It's rare for a thai with a legit background to not do well in kickboxing.

 

[RichardN7]

If we are talking strictly about kickboxing then the thais were not given many opportunities in kickboxing during the heyday of k1 (we had a 20 page shitshow of a thread on this forum about it lol), Yod for instance, won dominantly in his only k1 fight but was never invited to the GP that year because k1 didn't want thais to be over represented. The main reason we see more thais doing well currently is because the chinese orgs are much more willing to bank on thai talent. It's rare for a thai with a legit background to not do well in kickboxing.

It's a shame. It would have been nice to see what a Thai other than Buakaw could do against the likes of Souwer, Kraus, Petrosyan, Zambidis, etc.
Guess we'll have to settle for Glory. Guys like Pet, Sittichai and Thongchai and Yodkhunpon have already been making waves.

 

[AbeRudder]

Petpanomrung yes, Thongchai and Yodkunpon not so much lol.....

 

[RichardN7]

Petpanomrung yes, Thongchai and Yodkunpon not so much lol.....

Yeah, mediocre record in GLORY for both, which is interesting. It's 50:50 so far, two really good Thais and two mediocre ones. We'll see what happens in the future.

 

[AbeRudder]

Thongchai doesn't appear to take fighting that seriously at the moment, I'm pretty sure he had a kid recently and doesn't train that much. He is also horribly overweight, he really should be fighting at 145. Yodkunpon was good around 2011-2012 but fell off pretty hard after that.

 

[muaydan667]

Thongchai looks like my middle aged uncle now.

 

[KenkaBancho]

Isn't it fair to say that anyones success is due more to a ton of other factors aside from a specific style?

For eg, JWP is pretty much a thai fighter but has been far less successful a record than say Souwer and Masato. You could say Buakaw was better than both but he too lost fights against them.

Were their reasons for winning solely based on style? Doesn't chin, power, conditioning have a lot to do with it as well? There's really no reason to assume why all those other factors are equal.

 

[king of theRing]

Ah, so you mean he always basically uses the kick as a fade away/retreating technique and is unable to really follow up on it to use combinations after the kick? Opposed to being able to come forward with it and possibly facilitate temporary stance switching combinations (which Kaman loved to do)?

Exactly. It's a big give away and takes all power away.



there have been tons of guys lately in the past few years the I've seen all of a sudden promote "dutch style kickboxing and training" and they all seem to have the same predictable patterns and combos yet their fighters don't really perform anything remotely to what their coaches teach and look more like brawlers that mix in sloppy weak looking kicks into combinations

Yeah I'm very hesitant on who I learn from.

I train at Mark beechers gym at the moment, and he knows my former coach very well so he doesn't bullshit me like his guys do who teach class 1 or 2 days a week cause he knows I'm not stupid

 

[Kanka]

Isn't it fair to say that anyones success is due more to a ton of other factors aside from a specific style?

For eg, JWP is pretty much a thai fighter but has been far less successful a record than say Souwer and Masato. You could say Buakaw was better than both but he too lost fights against them.

Were their reasons for winning solely based on style? Doesn't chin, power, conditioning have a lot to do with it as well? There's really no reason to assume why all those other factors are equal.

Thais can generally handle the punches of the dutch, but the dutch can't handle the kicks of thais as often. If all you do is throw low kicks and punch combos it' going to be difficult to deal with teeps, knees and mid kicks.

 

[Luke Rockholds (?) kick]

Thais can generally handle the punches of the dutch, but the dutch can't handle the kicks of thais as often. If all you do is throw low kicks and punch combos it' going to be difficult to deal with teeps, knees and mid kicks.

Yes that was seen in the neiky holzkin vs bukaw fight but Dutch kickboxing was very effective with Ramon dekkers who adjusted it and really changed Muay Thai because now Muay Thai guys go to the body.

 

[DastardlyMass]

Yes that was seen in the neiky holzkin vs bukaw fight but Dutch kickboxing was very effective with Ramon dekkers who adjusted it and really changed Muay Thai because now Muay Thai guys go to the body.

they always went to the body. that is just another dutch myth. The dutch also did not "add punching to muaythai kicks" like they claim as thailand already had muaythai fighters with english boxing world titles. Ramon was not near as effective as his myth would have you believe. He lost way more fights than he won against thais

 

[Snubnoze707]

Ramon dekkers who adjusted it and really changed Muay Thai because now Muay Thai guys go to the body.

Nope, wrong, myth.

 

[Kim Jong Un]

Spong, overeem with ease.

Spong is nobody in MMA and Overeem has publically stated he doesn't think Dutch style works well for him in MMA. Overeem's MMA striking style is a hybrid of muay thai and Winkeljohn kickboxing.

 

[king of theRing]

Spong is nobody in MMA and Overeem has publically stated he doesn't think Dutch style works well for him in MMA. Overeem's MMA striking style is a hybrid of muay thai and Winkeljohn kickboxing.

Lol, yet he spends over half his time in Holland still. He was just at carbins gym for over half of his last fight camp.

And in terms of technique, spong still shows more, and knows 100 million times more than anthony would ever know. So really you weren't basing it off actual skills with rumble

 

[Kim Jong Un]

So really you weren't basing it off actual skills with rumble

Correct, I base it on application of skill. There are tons of guys with tons of skill who aren't able to apply it when the cage closes. The lesser skilled guy loses all the time for this reason. Rumble is the guy who can go into an MMA setting and make it happen best.