BREXIT Discussion, v4.0: The Back-Pedaling

It's hard Brexit or no Brexit at all, says EU council president
By Jennifer Rankin and Heather Stewart
13 October 2016

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The UK faces the stark choice of either a hard Brexit or no Brexit, the president of the European council has said – the first time he has taken such a clear line on the likely outcome of the UK’s exit talks.

Just hours after the foreign secretary, Boris Johnson, had told a committee of MPs he was confident Britain could strike a better trade deal with the EU after Brexit, Donald Tusk used a speech in Brussels to scotch the idea that Britain can “have its cake and eat it”.

Speaking to an audience of policymakers in Brussels on Thursday, Tusk – who chairs EU leaders’ summits – said it was useless to speculate about a soft Brexit, in which the UK remained a member of the single market. “The only real alternative to a hard Brexit is no Brexit, even if today hardly anyone believes in such a possibility.”

Without naming Johnson, notorious in Brussels for his jokey phrase that Britain could have its cake and eat it, Tusk criticised “the proponents of the cake philosophy” who argued the UK could be part of the EU single market without bearing any of the costs.

“That was pure illusion, that one can have the EU cake and eat it too. To all who believe in it, I propose a simple experiment. Buy a cake, eat it, and see if it is still there on the plate.”

Business groups, Labour, and moderate Conservative backbenchers have all urged the government to strike a deal that maintains many of the benefits of the single market.

Johnson had earlier told the cross-party foreign affairs select committee: “We are going to get a deal which is of huge value and possibly of greater value … We are going to get the best possible deal for trade in goods and services.”

But Tusk warned that Brexit would leave both Britain, and the rest of the EU, worse off. “There will be no cakes on the table, for anyone. There will be only salt and vinegar.”

His intervention is likely to heighten anxiety in the City about the potential costs of Brexit after the rapid sell-off of sterling in recent days, which was sparked after Theresa May appeared to signal at the start of the Conservative party conference that she favoured a clean break with the rest of the EU.

Senior ministers privately blame each other for exacerbating the market instability. The chancellor, Philip Hammond, is said to be concerned that some of his colleagues are failing to grasp the full scale of the risks the government faces as it navigates through the complex process of Brexit; he, in turn, is singled out by others for warning of an economic “rollercoaster” in his conference speech last week.

Johnson struck a defiantly optimistic tone at Thursday’s hearing, saying: “Those who prophesied doom have been proved wrong, and will continue to be proved wrong.” He also told MPs he believed the term “single market” was “increasingly useless”

Simon Tilford, deputy director of pro-EU thinktank the Centre for European Reform, said the markets would be scrutinising the government’s actions closely. “They’ve had a honeymoon, and it’s very clearly over,” he said. “It’s pretty clear that of the leading members of the government, only Philip Hammond understands the gravity of the situation.” He added: “What’s really spooked people is the suspicion that they really don’t know what they’re doing.”

Tusk stressed that EU leaders would conduct the negotiations in good faith, but said the UK could not get a better deal than if it remained in the EU. May has repeatedly insisted she will not give a “running commentary” on the progress of the talks with Britain’s EU partners, but Tusk’s speech underlined the fact that other participants are unlikely to hold back.

The prime minister has rejected the terms hard and soft Brexit as a false choice, promoted by those who have not accepted the result of the referendum, but her statement in her conference speech that she would insist on immigration controls and reject the oversight of the European court of justice was widely interpreted as a signal that she expects Britain to leave the single market.

Tusk said the leave campaign and its “Take back control” slogan showed the UK wanted to be free of EU law while rejecting free movement of people and contributions to the EU budget.

“This approach has definitive consequences, both for the position of the UK government and for the whole process of negotiations,” he said. “Regardless of magic spells, this means a de facto will to radically loosen relations with the EU – something that goes by the name of hard Brexit.”

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...or-no-brexit-at-all-says-eu-council-president
 
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Norway, france, germany, etc all export large amounts to the UK -- wouldnt it be in their best interest to keep it free?

How does norway make it work? Seems like UK biggest issue is social policy, so just omit that for them from the EEA

This is the EEA: http://www.efta.int/eea/eea-agreement/eea-basic-features

It's what I was referring to earlier, when I said that the best case scenario is for the U.K to become an EU member state without voting rights. That is what the EEA is. An EEA nation, is simply a country that has to implement every regulatory act from the EU without question, and without any involvement in the legislative process.

The reason Norway are doing it, is because it's the only way for them to stay free of fishing quotas (but it's a very unpopular arrangement in Norway atm). That is the only thing the EEA arrangement grants you; an opt out from agriculture and fishing policies.

Also, there is no way in hell that the EU will ever concede on the free movement of people. That is part of the four essential pillars that makes the EU. You keep saying that it should just be about money, but free movement of people is also that, and if you were in a business that operated across borders, you would understand why.
 
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Also, there is no way in hell that the EU will ever concede on the free movement of people. That is part of the four essential pillars that makes the EU. You keep saying that it should just be about money, but free movement of people is also that, and if you were in a business that operated across borders, you would understand why.

It's this very point that makes arguing the subject so difficult. People think the free movement of people means unskilled labor and refugees or migrants. But they forget that it really means scientists and engineers and accountants and college professors. That a company can send a forensic accounting expert to work in Germany for 5 years and then send him to another country without racking up additional costs.
 
I didn't realize Poland was using North Korean slaves. This is crazy as fuck.

So fucking sad what's happening to Europe. And they want to do the same thing to the US and the leftists couldn't be happier.

Leftists whether in the US or the UK have become a tool for the globalists corporate establishment and they are too stupid to see it because they have so much trust in government hey believe EVERY word they tell them.

The reality is that despite their virtue signalling and calling other people names, these 'leftists' couldn't give a single shit about the poor people and communities exploited and devastated by open borders. All they care about is pushing their agenda and making sure that their own lives are comfortable.

They are either ignorant to the reality of the EU's free movement policy or simply don't care about it's effects on the people at the bottom.
 
The number of dead from the Holocaust may be off a lot, but it happened. Why do you deny it ?

ahahahah because it's a huge lie once you look into the way camps were set up. they were labor camps not death camps. Holocaust is soviet propaganda.

again go do some research
 
ahahahah because it's a huge lie once you look into the way camps were set up. they were labor camps not death camps. Holocaust is soviet propaganda.

again go do some research

So they were worked to death instead of gassed according to you. How is that any less horrible?
 
Unilever and Tesco have been in a mexican stand off.

"its not going to change anything"

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/b...tles-won-t-be-so-easily-settled-a7360946.html

Wound up not being able to even get PG tips in the uks biggest supermarket. Pound is falling through the floor. UK still needs immigrants, but to the disdain of the racists, theyre bound to be a bit darker than the european ones they were complaining about. And the UK lost its stability, which is the single greatest thing about the UK from an investment point of view.
Intelligent british people are leaving by the truck load, and brexit looks like the single stupidest decision since geri halliwell decided to leave the spice girls for a solo career. In fact its basically the same thing. Only Geri looked fuckable and the uk right now just looks fucked.

That is all.
 
ahahahah because it's a huge lie once you look into the way camps were set up. they were labor camps not death camps. Holocaust is soviet propaganda.

again go do some research

I hope you get banned for this. In any case gtfo with that shit
 
Who won? Did Tesco keep the price down or did Unilever some kind of price bump?
 
lol at believing in the holocaust go do some real research.

Hitler was just another controlled puppet of the zionists. ever wonder why he died may 1st which is the same date (mayday) osma bin ladden another puppet got "killed" go learn about the occult

So... what percentage of Brexit supporters in here are actually neo-nazis?

The number of dead from the Holocaust may be off a lot, but it happened. Why do you deny it ?

ahahahah because it's a huge lie once you look into the way camps were set up. they were labor camps not death camps. Holocaust is soviet propaganda.

again go do some research

So they were worked to death instead of gassed according to you. How is that any less horrible?

go do some research.

I hope you get banned for this. In any case gtfo with that shit

High thread number to reply ratio.

Seriously, what the fuck did they merged into my Brexit discussion thread?! :eek:

Went to bed after the Brexit Opposition debate PBP, returned a day later to see Holocaust-denying bullshit! :mad:

You mind (permanently) getting rid of the garbage for us @Madmick? And please relay the message to your fellow Mods to stop treating our serious discussion as a garbage dump, thanks.
 
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ahahahah because it's a huge lie once you look into the way camps were set up. they were labor camps not death camps. Holocaust is soviet propaganda.

again go do some research

Can we get this Holocaust denier shit out of here? It would be a shame if this topic gets derailed or delete because of a top mind.
 
The financial part everyone agreed was coming. But you anticipated that they would adopt the EU regs and not make any significant changes to immigration? I thought those were the primary reason for a Brexit.
Even that is going to take time.
 

Nissan CEO insists on post-Brexit guarantees

14.10.2016

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Nissan has said it'll decide by the end of the year whether to build its new SUV model at Britain's Sunderland facility. The carmaker wants guarantees from Downing Street that Brexit will not harm its investment.

Just weeks after telling the UK that he could scrap new investment unless he got a guarantee of compensation for Brexit-related costs, Nissan CEO Carlos Ghosn (pictured above) on Friday met British Prime Minister Theresa May in London to talk about the carmaker's future in the UK.

The question was whether Nissan would build its new Qashqai SUV model at Britain's largest car plant. "The decision-making progress is in the next few weeks and months, with an outcome expected before the end of the year," a company source told the Reuters news agency.

Ghosn did not disclose to what extent the issue of compensation had been raised in his talks with Theresa May. He only said "I'm confident the British government will continue to ensure the UK remains a competitive place to do business."

Close co-operation

May for her part said she would certainly co-operate with the Japanese auto maker in the future.

"We will continue to work with Nissan as we develop the environment for competitiveness of the automotive industry here in the UK to ensure its success."

Nissan has been concerned that Britain is headed toward a "hard Brexit," which would leave it outside the European single market and facing tariffs of up to 10 percent on car exports.

Right now, the company produces its Juke, Qashqai and Leaf car models at the Sunderland facility in the UK, with around 500,000 vehicles rolling off the production line every year.

http://www.dw.com/en/nissan-ceo-insists-on-post-brexit-guarantees/a-36047188



Theresa May assures Nissan of shield against Brexit tariffs
Group chief Carlos Ghosn told Sunderland plant will have same trade conditions after EU exit
by: Peter Campbell and George Parker

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Nissan chief executive Carlos Ghosn leaves Downing Street on Friday after talks with Theresa May

Nissan has been given assurances by Theresa May that trading conditions for its Sunderland car plant will not change after Britain’s exit from the EU, in the first suggestion that the government could pick favoured sectors to shield from the impact of Brexit.

After meeting Mrs May in Downing Street on Friday, Carlos Ghosn, the Japanese carmaker’s chief executive, said he was “confident” the UK government would provide conditions that allow the company to invest in Britain.

Mr Ghosn met the prime minister ahead of the carmaker’s decision on whether to build its new Qashqai SUV in Sunderland, which could be taken as early as next month, according to two people familiar with the timetable. Nissan has previously said it will not invest any further unless the government offered assurances that it would not face greater tariffs, or that it be compensated otherwise.

Mrs May’s move to reassure Nissan, which is partnered with Renault, suggests that the UK could negotiate EU access for certain sectors. Ministers are looking at whether industries with complex supply chains might be given a carve out and remain in the customs union — if Britain left it.

In order to achieve this, the government will have to find a way to provide support without being in breach of EU rules around “state aid”.

Sunderland exports 76 per cent of its cars to the EU, and has been described by Mr Ghosn in the past as a “European plant based in the UK”.

On Friday, he said: “Following our productive meeting, I am confident the government will continue to ensure the UK remains a competitive place to do business.”

Nissan’s concerns around trading barriers extend not only to the export of its cars from the site but access to a European supply chain as well as international talent.

Specifics on what form the government support might take were not discussed at the meeting, which was attended by several senior officials from government including Jeremy Heywood, the cabinet secretary, and Greg Clark, the business secretary.

Two other Nissan executives also attended the meeting.

“It is not a done deal,” said one person close to the talks. “But it was a very positive meeting.”

In a statement released after the meeting, Mrs May said: “This government is committed to creating and supporting the right conditions for the automotive industry to go from strength to strength in the UK, now and into the future.

“That’s why I was pleased to have met with Mr Ghosn today to discuss our shared belief that Britain remains an outward-looking, world-leading nation in which to do business. We will continue to work with Nissan as we develop the environment for competitiveness of the automotive industry here in the UK to ensure its success.”

If the government agrees to offer compensation for tariffs, other carmakers in the UK are likely to demand similar terms.

Honda, Toyota and Vauxhall all operate plants in the UK that are heavily reliant on exports to the EU, while Ford and BMW make engines that are assembled into vehicles in continental plants.

The car industry in the UK supports 800,000 jobs, including 169,000 manufacturing roles at plants and in the supply chain. Some 80 per cent of the cars made in the UK are exported.

https://www.ft.com/content/68c12fbe-920e-11e6-8df8-d3778b55a923



Brexit: Nissan chief ‘confident’ about UK investments after talks with Theresa May
Chief executive Carlos Ghosn had Downing Street talks with the prime minister after he had demanded compensation for the company to stay in the UK after it leaves the EU.

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Nissan’s chief executive said he was confident Britain would remain an attractive place for investment after Brexit.

Carlos Ghosn met with prime minister Theresa May to discuss Nissan’s future in the UK on Friday after he hinted that the Japanese car maker could halt investment unless compensation is paid for any tariffs the company might incur outside the EU.

Nissan’s Sunderland plant was opened in 1986 and employs 7,000 people making half a million vehicles each year.

Mr Ghosn said: “It was my pleasure to be here today for a positive meeting with the prime minister and key members of her government and I welcome their commitment to the development of an industrial strategy for Britain.

“Following our productive meeting, I am confident the government will continue to ensure the UK remains a competitive place to do business.”

The prime minister added: “This government is committed to creating and supporting the right conditions for the automotive industry to go from strength to strength in the UK, now and into the future.”

Reuters reported after the talks that a Nissan source confirmed a decision would be made by the end of the year as to whether to build the company’s latest model in Sunderland or another EU country.

Fears were raised prior to the meeting that Nissan, which is part-owned by French company Renault and exports 76 per cent of its UK-made vehicles to the EU would relocate as a result of the Brexit vote.

Last month Ghosn said: “If I need to make an investment in the next few months and I can’t wait until the end of Brexit, then I have to make a deal with the UK Government.

“If there are tax barriers being established on cars, you have to have a commitment for carmakers who export to Europe that there is some kind of compensation.”

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/b...r-brexit-theresa-may-sunderland-a7362256.html
 
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This is the right way to help carmakers after Brexit
Allister Heath
14 October 2016​

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Carmakers are nervous, and understandably so. They aren’t sure what our ultimate relationship with the European Union will look like: this is an uncomfortable issue for them as they export a lot of cars to the Continent and operate integrated supply chains.

They need reassurance, to understand that the Government understands their concerns – which relate not just to tariffs, but also to other potential barriers – and is committed to retaining as much access as possible to EU markets.

Theresa May did the right thing agreeing to meet Carlos Ghosn, Nissan’s boss; the company will decide whether to build its next car in the UK by the end of the year.

Nissan left the meeting stating that it was confident that the Government would ensure that Britain remained a competitive place to do business, which was very encouraging.

There are a few caveats to all of this, however. First, carmakers – and other large investors – have long since mastered the art of bidding for special deals, tax exemptions and the like when choosing where to locate their car plants.

Countries compete for these and are willing to offer sweeteners to get the business; if the UK were to leave the single market as well as the EU, competition rules would no longer apply and thus some currently banned forms of inducement (currently classed as state aid) may become legal.

So it is in the interest of companies to exaggerate any potential problems from Brexit, in the hope of greater inducements.

Don’t fall into the trap of taking everything carmakers say about the risks of Brexit at face value.

Second, Nissan is 43.4pc owned by Renault, and operates in close alliance with the French manufacturer; Renault itself is 19.74pc owned by the French state, which is aghast at Brexit and of course also wants to attract investment to France.

Ghosn is the boss of Nissan – but he is also simultaneously chairman and chief executive of Renault Group.

I’m sure that Nissan is only, and rightly, acting in its commercial self-interest – but the broader political context cannot be ignored.

France isn’t Britain – and France’s largest companies, especially those in which the state is directly invested, are expected to take the “right” side on epoch-defining issues such as Brexit.

Third, the lower pound will be a major help to UK exporters, including carmakers. Of course, it’s more complicated than that.

They import parts and components; these will go up in value, cancelling out a lot of the positive effect of the lower pound.

Yet on balance the dramatic drop in the pound, if it is sustained, will make it far more competitive to make cars in the UK.

Arguably, the drop could by itself cancel out all the downsides of the UK being out of the single market and customs union.

Whether that is true or not is an empirical question – and one that the Government needs to analyse closely. Fourth, corporation tax has been slashed in the UK – again, this would cancel out some of the loss from protectionism by increasing returns to capital.

Remember: tariffs and other barriers are just another kind of tax.

The Nissan factory itself is extremely productive: this too would need to enter into the equation before the company took its decision: the creation or expansion of a lower productivity plant elsewhere in the EU would cancel out any gains from freer trade.

Employing people in much of continental Europe is a nightmare.

If it wanted to, the Government could slash tax further, helping to make the UK the best place in Europe or even the Western world to make cars, even if we end up temporarily in a World Trade Organisation-style relationship with the EU.

The UK is not powerless; it can mitigate problems.

Last but not least, under a WTO-style trading relationship, with both sides (unfortunately and stupidly) levying some (lowish) tariffs on each other, the UK government would end up raising quite a lot of money.

All of this could be spent compensating UK-based manufacturers. It’s great news that the Government is now engaging with the car makers.

It must address their concerns properly – but it should also act wisely and calmly.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/10/14/this-is-the-right-way-to-help-carmakers-after-brexit/
 
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I am sorry mods, I know there is lots to do and lots to read. But...I mean...are you fucking kidding me? The holocaust denial bullshit still littering this thread?
 
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