BJ Penn is 16-10-2

TS make a top 50 list and ill choose a couple of fighters off that list that BJ was better then
 
snakeybizz said:
just let that sink in.... he's not even in my 50 greatest of all time...
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Sher(tards)dogers never cease to amaze me...

they bitch about people cutting weight, but when a normal sized 145er fights his whole career going against top competition without cutting weight (always at 155, 170 even open weight against fucking MACHIDA), then they are no longer the greatest because of their record.
 
ts you're not really smart, right? like you don't have the best grades at school and stuff, right?
 
That209 said:
I doubt anybody will read this because most people these days can't read more than one sentence, it seems most MMA fans are still into picture books. Either that, or they need to sit on the floor, crossed-legged and have a teacher read it to them.

Anyway, onto my hate towards TS:



Another uneducated fool who only looks at the numbers on somebody's record instead of looking at their career achievements and the level of competition they faced.

BJ Penn is one of those fighters who are better than the numbers on their record show. Look at the competition he faced, since day 1 of his professional MMA career, BJ was fighting the best guys MMA had to offer.

He's won two titles in the biggest Mixed Martial Arts organization in the world and he did so very, very impressively. He was given little to no chance against Matt Hughes simply because he (BJ) was a lightweight and because Hughes was a fucking monster, damn near unbeatable. He was on a 13 fight winning streak and had defended his title 5 times and was dominating the division, Hughes was the fucking man at the time and BJ was just a lightweight who was barely given a chance by anybody at the time.

BJ went in there and destroyed Hughes to become the welterweight champion, and in his fight before that, he beat Takanori Gomi who at one point was considered the #1 lightweight in the world and the #2 P4P fighter in the world.

BJ fought Lyoto Machida for fuck's sake and he actually gave Lyoto a very tough fight, he gave him a tougher fight than most people had ever given Lyoto at the time, that's amazing because Lyoto is huge compared to BJ. He lost, but what BJ did takes a lot of guts, he moved up to 191+ lbs (I forget the exact weight) and fought a much larger Lyoto Machida and gave him a great fight, that's incredible.

In his first fight against Georges St. Pierre, it went to a split decision. I'm pretty sure a good amount of people actually thought BJ won that fight. BJ gave GSP a very, very tough fight and busted Georges up pretty badly in the first round on the feet, GSP basically stalled the next 2 rounds by holding BJ against the fence most of the time, that's right, GSP couldn't beat BJ on the feet and basically had to stall in order to get a win, that's very impressive because this is Georges St. Pierre we're talking about.

He then fought Hughes again, this time he lost by TKO. IIRC, he nearly beat Hughes again in that fight with a triangle and was beating him up on the feet, BJ then got very tired after the failed triangle, Hughes got him in a mounted crucifix and reigned down punches and BJ couldn't really defend himself, nor escape because Hughes is such a good wrestler and BJ was very, very tired. He was still impressive in that fight, considering the fact that Hughes was such a dominant fighter back then and BJ had almost got 2 wins in a row over him, nobody could really do much to Hughes except for BJ at that time.

BJ then beat the first LW champ in UFC history, Jens Pulver, in which he completely dominated the fight and did it easily. After that, he nearly killed Joe Stevenson and made him cry, he won the vacant LW title. He then knocked out Sean Sherk, which was a great fight, BJ looked incredible that night against Sherk. He then fought GSP again but this time, GSP was a different fight. GSP dominated BJ and finished the fight because once again, BJ got unbelievably tired and simply just got his ass handed to him, it was a beatdown.

So BJ went back down the LW, because he was still the LW champ. He defeated Kenny Florian in his 2nd title defense, Kenny had nothing for him, BJ outclassed him and submitted him with his trademark RNC. After that, he gave Diego Sanchez the beating of his life when, at the time, Diego was a monster, he was destroying people, BJ made him look like a complete amateur.

He then lost his title to Frankie Edgar, and I'm pretty sure most people thought BJ won. IIRC, most of the polls were in favour of BJ Penn for the first fight against Frankie, and I'm pretty sure every single media source except for MMAJunkie had scored the fight for BJ.

After that, it seemed to me that BJ lost some confidence, he didn't seem to be the same fighter anymore, either that, or maybe it was because of all the wars he put his body through. Ever since that first 'loss' to Frankie, BJ wasn't the same fighter anymore. He didn't really seem to be there physically or mentally. So he lost to Frankie once again, he was dominated for 5 rounds. He then moved up once again and knocked out the legend Matt Hughes in the rubber match in just 21 seconds, Hughes was out of his prime, as was BJ, but knocking out a legend and once amazing fighter like Matt Hughes is still very impressive.

After that, he won 2 rounds against Jon Fitch, gassed badly, and lost the 3rd via 10-8 and the fight was a draw. Then after that it was all downhill from there, BJ took the two worst beatings of his life against Nick Diaz & Rory MacDonald and I believe the effected him a lot, we've all seen those beatings, they were horrific, most fighters would have been KTFO in those fights but BJ showed tons of heart and kept fighting.

Then last night, his final fight, Frankie Edgar destroyed BJ with ease. Frankie is twice the fighter he was back when he beat BJ the first & second time, BJ on the other hand, is 4 years past his prime. BJ shouldn't have fought last night, he should have retired after his loss to Nick Diaz or Rory Mac.

You can't question BJ as a fighter based on the numbers on his record after he accomplished the things he did against such high level competition. BJ has done amazing things, being a two division champion in the UFC is damn near unheard of, Randy Couture is the only other fighter who has done this and Randy was the fucking man at the time, but let me guess, because Randy's record is 19-11, he was never that good, right?

BJ was amazing in his time, he was truly a special fighter. He was, and still is one of the realest fighters to have ever competed in Mixed Martial Arts and he's done great things, things that almost nobody else in MMA has ever, and likely will ever accomplish. He's considered by many fans, along with fighters, to be the greatest lightweight in MMA history, that says a lot.

Just because the numbers on his record aren't great doesn't mean he was never that good. BJ has fought nothing but the very best the world had to offer ever since 2001, his very first fight was in the UFC.

I don't care what you or anybody else says, BJ has done great things in his career and for the sport. Watching BJ fight a few years ago was always something you could find yourself excited for because you knew you were in for a great fight, you knew he was going to go in and try to put on a show.

BJ Penn will go down in history as a legend and one of the greatest of all time. I'll take any professional fighters' opinion over you, you have absolutely no idea what the fuck you're talking about.

If you can't appreciate the things BJ did throughout his career and what he did for the sport, you should stop watching MMA. Really, you should stop watching MMA. I guess you weren't around to see the real BJ Penn, the BJ Penn that was decimating his opponents and making it look easy. I'm guessing you only got into MMA around the time of your join date, which is basically just one full year.

If you actually knew one fucking thing about the sport and if you actually paid attention to the competition, along with the things BJ accomplished throughout his career, then maybe you would understand. Unfortunately, you don't, you have no idea what you're talking about.

Saying BJ isn't in your little fantasy list of top 50 greatest of all time is fucking hilarious, you have no idea what you're talking about, you're brand new to the sport. Having great numbers on your record means nothing when you've fought nothing but cans, BJ fought the top guys from day one of his career.

I think you should start paying attention a little more, TS. You really should, because posting a bunch of garbage like this is just going to show how stupid you really are when it comes to MMA, either go do some real research, watch the fights, or just stop watching. The least you can do for us, you know, the real knowledgeable fans, is stop posting. It would be very appreciated.

I doubt anybody read this entire post, but I just had to get this off my chest. Posts like this, shit, 'fans' like this really get on my nerves. They make the sport look bad, they give MMA fans a really bad reputation, making us all look stupid.

Sherdog should start making tests/trivia for new members, they should have to do a test and if they pass it, they can be a member, I say this because there's too many idiots and trolls here that don't know what they're talking about and they make us all look bad with their stupidity.

TS should be dubbed or banned for posting this garbage thread. He has absolutely no idea what the fuck he's talking about and I don't care what he, or anybody else says, talking down on BJ Penn like this.. he should kicked in the nuts by Cro Cop.. BJ was fucking amazing in his prime.

With all this being sad, TS, please, don't ever post again. The fact you made this thread and likely think you're some sort of intelligent MMA fan just makes me sick. What a fucking joke.

Yes, I'm mad, bro. :mad:
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This -
 
When you put his record into context I think you can make a case for him being top 20 for sure. You can still make a case for him being the LW GOAT. He probably won't last a whole lot longer as the next generation fills out their resumes.
 
Lead Salad said:
True. For Penn's era though at LW, he dominated. I don't think he would stand a chance against Bendo. Melendez, Thompson or Edgar but he destroyed the comp he had during his time.
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were you just born? Did you miss the first BJ/Edgar fight?
 
clayj said:
Sher(tards)dogers never cease to amaze me...

they bitch about people cutting weight, but when a normal sized 145er fights his whole career going against top competition without cutting weight (always at 155, 170 even open weight against fucking MACHIDA), then they are no longer the greatest because of their record.
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I don't mind guys cutting weight for fights. Their opponent is subject to the same rules and can do it to get down to other divisions if they want. There are real trade-offs for doing so.

That being said, you don't get bonus cred points for not cutting weight. Sure, Penn fought Machida, but he weighed 193 lbs when he did it. Essentially you're making the argument of what Penn could have done if he hadn't moved up in class... its like giving him credit for MMA wins he never fought.


You can't give out participation ribbons to every guy who fights outside of his frame's optimum weight class. Roy Nelson would be a hell of a middleweight. Cro Cop the GOAT LHW. Jon Dodson would be the GOAT P4P at a hypothetical 105 lbs division.

It's all speculation.

If you want to talk about greatness, IMO, we have to stick to what we know. You don't get credit for fighting heavier than you might otherwise have. A loss is a loss is a loss.

BJ Penn was 26 in 2005. He's 7-9-1 since. We can say that he's past his prime athletic years at 35... but he got passed up in his signature division when he was 31. That shouldn't happen to an all-time great.

In the early 00's, the sport was rapidly evolving. BJ took great natural gifts early on and had a lot of success. Like many fighters from that era, however, the game passed them by before the end of their natural athletic primes. For that reason, its tough for me to put BJ in lofty status.

I respect what he did in the early years, but a better fighter would have evolved with the sport.
 
MarkHammer said:
Never ceases to amaze me. Names on resume > numbers on resume. "16-10-2" doesn't specify all the time he spent fighting at welterweight and above.
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I still stand by BJ having the hardest schedule in the history of the sport. Only names missing are Fedor and Sakuraba. And we all know he would fight either next Saturday if given the opportunity. He could be 16-12-1 and I still wouldn't think less of the guy.
 
Three of those losses were to Edgar, several were to some of the best fighters in the weight class above his natural weight class and in one case to one of the best fighters several weight classes above his natural weight class.

You're either a troll or you just don't know what you're talking about.
 
Just cause he didn't crush cans like Fedor doesn't mean he isn't one of the best.
 
Fight To Win said:
Three of those losses were to Edgar, several were to some of the best fighters in the weight class above his natural weight class and in one case to one of the best fighters several weight classes above his natural weight class.

You're either a troll or you just don't know what you're talking about.
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Edgar is a very good, but not great fighter in context of what we are talking about here.

He beat Penn in his prime - twice. How can Penn be a GOAT if a very good Edgar beat him so convincingly

To get around this, you might say that Penn was past his prime when Edgar fought him... but what GOAT has his prime end at 30 (unless to injury)?
 
Diablo Ryu said:
Numbers dont lie...hes the same as randy...very very overrated.
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Randy was better and tougher than BJ ever was...and didn't even really get started until he was about as old as BJ is now.
 
snakeybizz said:
just let that sink in.... he's not even in my 50 greatest of all time...
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no offense meant, but youre apparently a new fan that doesnt understand the context in which those wins and losses took place.

you cannot judge many fighters based on their W-L.

understand this:

1. every single fight that bj had was with someone who was currently ranked within the top 10. every one. name even one other fighter that this is true of.

2. he lost a CLOSE decision to F'ing machida when machida was a HW.

3. hes competed in 5 different weight classes. what other natural lightweights do you know that could arguably defeat GSP once, and go four rounds with him in the 2nd fight?

4. he is one of two fighters to hold a belt in two weight classes.

5. always came to fight, and was only finished once. last night was his only blimish. whether he did the ass kicking or got his ass kicked, he fought, and never for points.
 
In my opinion, Penn had all the skill and talent in the world, but he lacked the mentality it takes to be the best. He seemed to lose it mentally in a lot of fights and wilt when the going got tough, or when he was actually challenged. The fight last night was a complete mental shutdown. Guys that trained with BJ during this camp were talking about how amazing he still was, but when it came to game time, he folded........
 
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