Alt-"right" myth DEBUNKED: 4 reasons why Richard Spencer is a racist LEFTIST!!!

How many right wingers do you know advocate for single payer healthcare?
Donald Trump (up until very recently he openly advocated for this, and he still drops "hints" like when he told the Australian prime minister that they had "better" healthcare than we did), Marine Le Pen, almost all European and non-American right wingers from industrialized nations. It's the nationalist, populist right vs the libertarian, economically conservative right.
 
Would that mean that a right wing person form Iran would be considered left wing in USA? That person would be opposed to existing social hierarchies.
Well, Arab Americans and Muslim Americans (besides African American converts) traditionally voted Republican, as did Asian Americans. When it became apparent that they were on the other side of US identity politics, they changed their vote accordingly, even though, similar to African Americans, their personal views don't necessarily lineup with the views of white liberals and progressives who vote Democrat.
 
Would that mean that a right wing person form Iran would be considered left wing in USA? That person would be opposed to existing social hierarchies.
I think the best definition is that right wing supports (stronger) social hierarchies and the left opposes it. Nazis were also against the existing hierarchy at the time of the Weimar republic(money and traditional junker families) and created a different one(aryans vs jews and other subhumans).
 
I hate this fucking bullshit game that some people on the right try to play to disassociate themselves from some of the extremists they have on their side. Spencer is far right, a fascist, a Nazi, a national socialist, whatever you want to call him. He is NOT a leftist just because he wants big government in certain areas. He's a right wing authoritarian not a right wing libertarian. Just like there's a libertarian (or democratic) left as opposed to the authoritarian left. Sadly, both sides seem to be becoming more authoritarian and less libertarian.

This is a totally fair criticism, though more fairly applied to both sides. Ask a feminist her thoughts on, or what she's doing about, radical feminism and you'll get "No TRUE feminist would..." all day long - then when she's done she'll go on a rant about how every Republican has to take responsibility for the KKK in some capacity. Part of the partisan mindset we're all being drawn into is that the other side is the bad guy, not ours - so when our side is the bad guy, which it WILL be at some point, it simply does not compute, and it turns out it wasn't really our side at all and we don't have to take any ownership/responsibility of it. Righties do it, Lefties do it, and even centrists do it in a compartmental way.
 
The American far right are the only morans in literally the entire world that mix white nationalism with free market economics.

All the other racists know that to build a better society, the safety net has to be strong and it requires government intervention. Of course, these people only whites in this society, but they're not wrong about the economic policy part.

The American right thinks the predatory individualism of the libertarian right will work out great with a segregated ethno-state.
 
Charles Barkley did some show with him that aired this past week.
 
I think the best definition is that right wing supports (stronger) social hierarchies and the left opposes it. Nazis were also against the existing hierarchy at the time of the Weimar republic(money and traditional junker families) and created a different one(aryans vs jews and other subhumans).

Well, that would make communist parties right wing in every single country they ruled. And where is the middle exactly? Does that make Milton Friedman left wing? The left-right divide keeps getting more confusing.
 
Well, that would make communist parties right wing in every single country they ruled. And where is the middle exactly? Does that make Milton Friedman left wing? The left-right divide keeps getting more confusing.
No, look.
Hierarchies can exist for numerous reasons.
Money, race, gender, noble birth and so on.

Communism is against all kinds of hierarchy, they want to redistribute all money, all means of production, topple nobles and even in some cases make marriage illegal(karl marx wrote about that, never implemented) because it puts husband above wife. Of course, in practice a bunch of bureaucrats end up having all the power in "communist countries", which are actually socialist countries that strive for communism(a global system), but at least they are usually drawn from all kinds of people, many of the leaders of the soviet union were formerly poor and they didn't establish a dynasty.

Milton Friedman as a freemarket libertarian obviously supports a form of money hierarchy, in his ideal society there will be people who will be much richer than others and the government will not do much to correct that. Rich people will be even more privileged than they are right now as they will pay no taxes, and poor people will suffer even more as they will get no form of welfare. That's right wing. Of course, libertarians will claim the opposite will actually happen, without the government the world will be fairer, but that's not the consensus of economists.

National Socialism believes in some form of wealth redistribution but creates an even higher barrier. While in libertarianism a poor person can rise and become an elite(rich) despite his origins a person who happens to be born with the wrong genetics in National Socialism is destined to be killed or enslaved. That's like the ultimate form of hierarchy.
Again, of course, National Socialists will claim they are the ones ending unfair hierarchies(family money) and following the laws of nature(social Darwinism).

Aristocracy is another form of right wing government where people born noble have inherent advantages.

The middle ground is found nowadays on most western capitalist countries. The rich are obviously higher on the hierarchy than the middle class or the poor but the government tries to some degree to correct that with social programs, universal suffrage(a beggar vote counts the same as a billionaire), and there is some kind of social mobility where a poor person can, usually with some government help through public education, rise above poverty.

In other words
left wing=equality
right wing=inequality
 
[...] Why is Spencer getting so much media coverage? The aggressive media play could be, in the words of Daily Wire’s Editor-in-Chief Ben Shapiro, an attempt to paint conservatives and people on the right to all be secret Richard Spencer cabalists.
This could not be further from the truth. [...] Here are four reasons why Richard Spencer is a racist leftist:

1. He badmouths capitalism regularly and promotes Bernie Sanders-style healthcare.

Spencer spouts common leftist mantras, such as: capitalism is evil and exploitative, and big corporations are out to get the little guy. While Spencer does not explicitly acknowledge it, he is a socialist at heart, even advocating that the Right should adopt most of Bernie Sanders’ platform on universal healthcare and other economic issues.

2. He believes individualism and freedom are stupid ideas.

The American right’s ideology is predicated on the freedom of the individual to grow and thrive on his/her own without government intervention. The left, lacking faith in individualism, tends to think people need their hands held by the state and their freedoms restricted. Spencer stated at a recent speaking event at Auburn University that individualism and freedom were stupid concepts. He offers little rationale for his views, which could stem from his belief in racial collectivism.

3. He praises big government programs on a variety of issues.

Along with his advocacy of universal healthcare, Spencer offers big government programs to reinvent public transportation, solve climate issues, and forgive student debt. Even if any of these programs helped anything, which is doubtful, where would the money come from? Presumably higher taxes and higher deficits.

4. It’s a tactic of the left to play identity politics.

The right accepts and celebrates the idea that American and western culture is the greatest culture in the world. We are happy to encourage well-meaning and legal foreigners to assimilate into our culture in order for them to enjoy the benefits of pursing the American ideal. Richard Spencer, on the other hand, rejects the possibility that people either want to or should integrate with other cultures, as cultures tend to oppress each other. So in response to the left’s hard playing of minority racial grievances, Spencer uses the exact same logic to promote white racial grievances.

article: http://www.dailywire.com/news/16491/4-reasons-why-richard-spencer-racist-leftist-zack-miley

Bullshit man, what are you on today?
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@Ruprecht your definition of left-wing ideologies as being averse to predominant social structures and right-wing ideologies as being supportive of just these doesn't lead to a conclusive method which is suitable for looking at political philosophies in the historical context and tracing their development between aristocracies and modern Western democracies. That's not impossible but your approach simply does a bad job at it.

Many famous and influential thinkers grew up in times of monarchies, emperors, kings and aristocrats or in times in which those entities existed in the recent past. And many of them opposed those social structures which were defined mostly by birthright and ultimately implemented through political authority. But this opposition simply isn't a sufficient criterion for any broad form of categorization of political philosophies, especially not within a binary system, defined by either left or right. The ideas of how to solve a commonly accepted problem are so different from each other that they completely outweigh the "common ground" (which often isn't one) as a potential grouping scheme.
And different left and right wing ideologies inherited many of those intellectual concepts introduced or promoted by different thinkers who all were opposed to the hierarchical structures at their time.
Some completely opposed any form of private property and favored concepts of 'public' ownership. John Locke made a strong case for homesteading, private property and individual ownership. Yet he wasn't supportive of Patriarchalism and absolute monarchy the predominant structures in the United Kingdom. But his thoughts on this topic influenced very different people and movements compared to thinkers who rejected private property concepts. Among those are libertarians like Rothbard who clearly set the path for modern 'right-wing' libertarianism in the USA.
The same idea would be opposed by virtually any part of the left in 2017 both liberals and leftist anarchists.

Part of the problem is that the assessment what actually is an unjust social structure and what advances or harms those are fundamentally different.
So even if you say it's not about what you personally think, your approach can't be decoupled from somewhat subjective judgment.
Just look at the Bastiat-Proudhon debate and their different ideas on interest and mutuality.
Or at current movements on the far "left" or "right" spectrum. Anarcho-Capitalists would claim that there is no unjust social structure in purely market-orientated voluntarism. Everybody has the same negative rights and nobody has the right to imitate force against another individual. Individual freedom is arguably maximized and authority minimized. Every contract by definition is voluntarily is mutually beneficial. They couldn't be further away from supporting our current social structures because those are dominated and determined by political authority in the hands of a government.
Yet due to their focus on private property, their rejection of economic egalitarianism and positive rights they're unanimously viewed as right-wingers.

Other forms of Anarchists who believe in the labor theory of value and concepts like ownership by abstracts like society aren't more or less against social structures as we see them right now, and they're seen as far leftists.

On a left-right spectrum applied to Anarchists, Proudhon would be somewhere in between. He believed in a social order which is based on the concept of individual ownership. However he puts restrictions onto individual ownership. He accepts that an order can emerge from naturally different positions between employees and employers who enter into a contract but he wants to see the effects of unequal ownership to be very limited.
Le Pen is much like Bismarck, in that her preference for a strong welfare state is secondary to her primary goal of ethnic nationalism, which is either a conservative or reactionary approach to the existing social hierarchy.
This isn't an axiomatic and self-evident observation. You simply say that's the case to come to your conclusion that she's a nationalist first.
She's a politician and both a strong welfare state and nationalism are in her official program. That's all which objectively can be said about it.
The same way you repeatedly made the claim that Proudhon basically was only worried about economic problems and that social equality etc wasn't a thing at that time, when in fact, he was a philosopher who wrote plenty about both subjects, even in the same books. Books on his thoughts about economics and 'the system'. It was a topic for him. He just said things you have to exclude or talk away in order to apply your flawed concept of left-right categorization and place him where you want to have him placed.

I hate this fucking bullshit game that some people on the right try to play to disassociate themselves from some of the extremists they have on their side. Spencer is far right, a fascist, a Nazi, a national socialist, whatever you want to call him. He is NOT a leftist just because he wants big government in certain areas. He's a right wing authoritarian not a right wing libertarian. Just like there's a libertarian (or democratic) left as opposed to the authoritarian left. Sadly, both sides seem to be becoming more authoritarian and less libertarian.
Yes this is obviously the intention of the article and the reason why it ends up looking somewhat goofy and awkward.
But both the write-up and the discussion about it still outline the problem of right-left thinking as the dominant way of looking at political ideologies.
It's an undeniable fact that some positions of right-wing extremists are 1:1 shared by "leftists" and there are people who self-identify as right-wingers and are typically seen as 'on the right' but in many ways couldn't be further away from those people. So if there are more important factors, why not just name them? Even specific descriptions like national socialist, libertarian socialist, liberal, constitutionalist often aren't unambiguous enough as their meaning changes over time, isn't exactly the same in every country etc. A left-right scale which is indefinitely more inconclusive really doesn't add much to the understanding of the actual political spectrum.
 
This is a totally fair criticism, though more fairly applied to both sides. Ask a feminist her thoughts on, or what she's doing about, radical feminism and you'll get "No TRUE feminist would..." all day long - then when she's done she'll go on a rant about how every Republican has to take responsibility for the KKK in some capacity. Part of the partisan mindset we're all being drawn into is that the other side is the bad guy, not ours - so when our side is the bad guy, which it WILL be at some point, it simply does not compute, and it turns out it wasn't really our side at all and we don't have to take any ownership/responsibility of it. Righties do it, Lefties do it, and even centrists do it in a compartmental way.
True, but I don't see leftists claiming that Castro isn't a leftist or is actually a right winger. Right wingers try to claim that Hitler is a leftist. Of course at the same time, I'll give right wingers credit for not defending Hitler as much as leftists will defend Castro. I have left wing friends who will knee jerk defend Castro whenever his name gets brought up. But when you mention Hitler, I've never heard my right wing friends start knee jerk defending him. But you're right, you do see all sorts of BS on BOTH sides.
 
No, look.
Hierarchies can exist for numerous reasons.
Money, race, gender, noble birth and so on.

Communism is against all kinds of hierarchy, they want to redistribute all money, all means of production, topple nobles and even in some cases make marriage illegal(karl marx wrote about that, never implemented) because it puts husband above wife. Of course, in practice a bunch of bureaucrats end up having all the power in "communist countries", which are actually socialist countries that strive for communism(a global system), but at least they are usually drawn from all kinds of people, many of the leaders of the soviet union were formerly poor and they didn't establish a dynasty.

Milton Friedman as a freemarket libertarian obviously supports a form of money hierarchy, in his ideal society there will be people who will be much richer than others and the government will not do much to correct that. Rich people will be even more privileged than they are right now as they will pay no taxes, and poor people will suffer even more as they will get no form of welfare. That's right wing. Of course, libertarians will claim the opposite will actually happen, without the government the world will be fairer, but that's not the consensus of economists.

National Socialism believes in some form of wealth redistribution but creates an even higher barrier. While in libertarianism a poor person can rise and become an elite(rich) despite his origins a person who happens to be born with the wrong genetics in National Socialism is destined to be killed or enslaved. That's like the ultimate form of hierarchy.
Again, of course, National Socialists will claim they are the ones ending unfair hierarchies(family money) and following the laws of nature(social Darwinism).

Aristocracy is another form of right wing government where people born noble have inherent advantages.

The middle ground is found nowadays on most western capitalist countries. The rich are obviously higher on the hierarchy than the middle class or the poor but the government tries to some degree to correct that with social programs, universal suffrage(a beggar vote counts the same as a billionaire), and there is some kind of social mobility where a poor person can, usually with some government help through public education, rise above poverty.

In other words
left wing=equality
right wing=inequality

Sounds to me like there is some sort of paradox here. To reach marxist end goal, to destroy all forms of hierarchy, you'd need to establish even stronger hierarchies first. Wealth redistribution can only happen with government regulation. That means left wing exists in theory only. We shouldn't use marxist utopia as "left pole" because it's impossible to achieve.
 
Yes this is obviously the intention of the article and the reason why it ends up looking somewhat goofy and awkward.
But both the write-up and the discussion about it still outline the problem of right-left thinking as the dominant way of looking at political ideologies.
It's an undeniable fact that some positions of right-wing extremists are 1:1 shared by "leftists" and there are people who self-identify as right-wingers and are typically seen as 'on the right' but in many ways couldn't be further away from those people. So if there are more important factors, why not just name them? Even specific descriptions like national socialist, libertarian socialist, liberal, constitutionalist often aren't unambiguous enough as their meaning changes over time, isn't exactly the same in every country etc. A left-right scale which is indefinitely more inconclusive really doesn't add much to the understanding of the actual political spectrum.
You're calling Spencer a "leftist" in the thread title. Sorry, not buying it. He may not be a movement conservative like Ted Cruz, but he sure as hell isn't a leftist. It is true that the far right and the far left often arrive at the same place even though they took different directions to get there.
 
You're calling Spencer a "leftist" in the thread title. Sorry, not buying it. He may not be a movement conservative like Ted Cruz, but he sure as hell isn't a leftist. It is true that the far right and the far left often arrive at the same place even though they took different directions to get there.
No I'm not. That's not my article. It was posted on a website and I shared it here.
 
No I'm not. That's not my article. It was posted on a website and I shared it here.
You've been making similar arguments throughout this thread. You wrote that "Hitler is left". Seems like you're trying to weasel your way out of it now.
 
You've been making similar arguments throughout this thread. You wrote that "Hitler is left". Seems like you're trying to weasel your way out of it now.
No, I've been very consistent with what I said. I don't claim Hitler was a leftist, that was a snarky response to the 'argument' that X was a leftist based on the fact he could be called libertarian socialist. Hitler's party also had the term socialist in it. Actually the way I wrote it, it indicates that I think Hitler obviously shouldn't be seen as a leftist.
Otherwise I'd agree to the argument I was trying to refute.
 
No, I've been very consistent with what I said. I don't claim Hitler was a leftist, that was a snarky response to the 'argument' that X was a leftist based on the fact he could be called libertarian socialist. Hitler's party also had the term socialist in it. Actually the way I wrote it, it indicates that I think Hitler obviously shouldn't be seen as a leftist.
Otherwise I'd agree to the argument I was trying to refute.
Fair enough. The thread title and a lot of your words in the thread were misleading. Having carefully gone over it now, I see there was a bit more nuance than what I originally saw from you.
 
@Ruprecht your definition of left-wing ideologies as being averse to predominant social structures and right-wing ideologies as being supportive of just these doesn't lead to a conclusive method which is suitable for looking at political philosophies in the historical context and tracing their development between aristocracies and modern Western democracies. That's not impossible but your approach simply does a bad job at it.

It's not "my approach", it's the definition of the terms. Disputed by no-one but American right-wing libertarians.

And different left and right wing ideologies inherited many of those intellectual concepts introduced or promoted by different thinkers who all were opposed to the hierarchical structures at their time.
Some completely opposed any form of private property and favored concepts of 'public' ownership. John Locke made a strong case for homesteading, private property and individual ownership. Yet he wasn't supportive of Patriarchalism and absolute monarchy the predominant structures in the United Kingdom. But his thoughts on this topic influenced very different people and movements compared to thinkers who rejected private property concepts. Among those are libertarians like Rothbard who clearly set the path for modern 'right-wing' libertarianism in the USA.
The same idea would be opposed by virtually any part of the left in 2017 both liberals and leftist anarchists.

Of course it's a spectrum. Locke is primarily seen as influencing the economic liberalism of the modern right, but whether his liberalism is primarily left-wing or right-wing is disputed. Clearly he wasn't as much of an economic egalitarian as the likes of Marx or Proudhon, but as you say he wasn't supportive of the existing monarchy nor established hierarchical institutions (such as in his focus on natural rights as opposed to natural law). There were a lot of parallels between his philosophy and the levellers, who were essentially champions of the middle classes.
Rothbard on the other hand was stridently against any egalitarianism. Hence his firm positioning on the right.

Part of the problem is that the assessment what actually is an unjust social structure and what advances or harms those are fundamentally different.
So even if you say it's not about what you personally think, your approach can't be decoupled from somewhat subjective judgment.
Just look at the Bastiat-Proudhon debate and their different ideas on interest and mutuality.
Or at current movements on the far "left" or "right" spectrum. Anarcho-Capitalists would claim that there is no unjust social structure in purely market-orientated voluntarism. Everybody has the same negative rights and nobody has the right to imitate force against another individual. Individual freedom is arguably maximized and authority minimized. Every contract by definition is voluntarily is mutually beneficial. They couldn't be further away from supporting our current social structures because those are dominated and determined by political authority in the hands of a government.
Yet due to their focus on private property, their rejection of economic egalitarianism and positive rights they're unanimously viewed as right-wingers.

The difference in assessment plays no role in the categorisation of left-wing or right-wing.
When I said left-wing is opposition to the existing hierarchy, I didn't just mean the specific hierarchy in terms of individuals, but the actual hierarchical structure. It wouldn't be truly "left-wing" to want to replace the existing hierarchy with an even more hierarchical social order, just consisting of different groups or the same groups at different strata. Opposition to hierarchical structure itself is inherently egalitarian, and the degree of egalitarianism is typically the measure of just how left-wing an ideology is (although for both left and right it's also often simply how far their ideas are outside the Overton window..
Like I pointed out, that's the fundamental difference between Left and Right libertarianism, as per the definition of the terms.

Other forms of Anarchists who believe in the labor theory of value and concepts like ownership by abstracts like society aren't more or less against social structures as we see them right now, and they're seen as far leftists.

On a left-right spectrum applied to Anarchists, Proudhon would be somewhere in between. He believed in a social order which is based on the concept of individual ownership. However he puts restrictions onto individual ownership. He accepts that an order can emerge from naturally different positions between employees and employers who enter into a contract but he wants to see the effects of unequal ownership to be very limited.

See above. Proudhon's egalitarianism in regards to workers and the class struggle was not that far from Marx.

This isn't an axiomatic and self-evident observation. You simply say that's the case to come to your conclusion that she's a nationalist first.
She's a politician and both a strong welfare state and nationalism are in her official program. That's all which objectively can be said about it.
The same way you repeatedly made the claim that Proudhon basically was only worried about economic problems and that social equality etc wasn't a thing at that time, when in fact, he was a philosopher who wrote plenty about both subjects, even in the same books. Books on his thoughts about economics and 'the system'. It was a topic for him. He just said things you have to exclude or talk away in order to apply your flawed concept of left-right categorization and place him where you want to have him placed.

Le Pen was the leader of the National Front...
Ethnic nationalism is Le Pen's platform. Transparently so. The cornerstone of her campaign was that immigration will destroy France's social, cultural and economic structure.
Her economic policy, especially her protectionism, is focused on that concept of conservation.
That really is self evident.
I don't have to place Proudhon anywhere. I mentioned the left-wing origins of Anarchism as the obvious rebuttal to the idea that the left and right are defined by the size of government. That includes Proudhon, but extends well beyond him.
Regardless, Proudhon's opposition to the existing hierarchy is obvious. You just seem to gloss over the fact that his primary contribution to Anarchism was his economic theory, that his approach to capitalism and workers was an egalitarian assault on the hierarchy, and that his philosophy and supporters explicitly constituted the left-wing of their time.
Are you going to argue the the First International was a gathering of right-wingers? That they were primarily concerned with the threat of Jews, homosexuality and stopping the social emancipation of women?

Yes this is obviously the intention of the article and the reason why it ends up looking somewhat goofy and awkward.
But both the write-up and the discussion about it still outline the problem of right-left thinking as the dominant way of looking at political ideologies.
It's an undeniable fact that some positions of right-wing extremists are 1:1 shared by "leftists" and there are people who self-identify as right-wingers and are typically seen as 'on the right' but in many ways couldn't be further away from those people. So if there are more important factors, why not just name them? Even specific descriptions like national socialist, libertarian socialist, liberal, constitutionalist often aren't unambiguous enough as their meaning changes over time, isn't exactly the same in every country etc. A left-right scale which is indefinitely more inconclusive really doesn't add much to the understanding of the actual political spectrum.

It's a simplistic division, but it's not so ambiguous a categorisation that redefining it as being about the size of government is anything less than a transparent, politically motivated, Orwellian abuse of language.
 
@Ruprecht:
When I said left-wing is opposition to the existing hierarchy, I didn't just mean the specific hierarchy in terms of individuals, but the actual hierarchical structure. It wouldn't be truly "left-wing" to want to replace the existing hierarchy with an even more hierarchical social order, just consisting of different groups or the same groups at different strata. Opposition to hierarchical structure itself is inherently egalitarian, and the degree of egalitarianism is typically the measure of just how left-wing an ideology is (although for both left and right it's also often simply how far their ideas are outside the Overton window..

Going back to the French Revolution, leftists like Robespierre certainly weren't against replacing the existing hierarchy! Would you say that once the Jacobins gained power, they ceased to be leftists since they now were the hierarchy?
 
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