Alt-"right" myth DEBUNKED: 4 reasons why Richard Spencer is a racist LEFTIST!!!

I don't support most "social liberalism", but this isn't about my political beliefs it's about basic political definitions.
No, I think/hope I didn't claim you do.

Advocating for "transgenders", homosexuals and racial minorities is absolutely about being against the established social hierarchy.
As I've repeatedly stated and referenced in respect to Proudhon and the other examples, that's the core of the left-right definition,
This is funny. Proudhon was a brutal sexist, anti-Semite and homophobe.
and has nothing to do with the size of state apparatus.
Which is why it's hard to call Proudhon a leftist but easy to call him an Anarchist.
You continue to ignore the fact that in the origin of the term "right wing" meant support for absolute Monarchy and the landed aristocracy.
Clearly not against "big government".
I never claimed that right-wing meant being against big government. I don't even claim that is what it means to be "right-wing" now in America. Because it doesn't. The vast majority of Republicans and conservatives doesn't care about libertarianism, neither about so-called right-wing nor left-wing libertarianism.
Our entire discussion started with the statement that Anarchism clearly is or was a left ideology.
That doesn't mean I'm arguing for the opposite.
"Agreeing with social liberals" isn't the definition of left-wing.
It's amusing that you'd use "liberal" the way you do if you've read Proudhon and any of his contemporaries.
I use the term liberalism to describe specific movements. Today's social liberalism, and I was explicitly referring to them, for example, has very little to do with the original ideas of classic liberalism in the UK advanced by Adam Smith etc. Today's social liberals would call essays of classic liberlalism libertarian right-wing propaganda.
 
No, I think/hope I didn't claim you do.
Just because they want to use it for something you think is noble doesn't make them opposed to statism.

This is funny. Proudhon was a brutal sexist, anti-Semite and homophobe.
Which is why it's hard to call Proudhon a leftist but easy to call him an Anarchist.

It's not hard at all, as I keep saying it's the definition of the term.
Along with most of his contemporaries, Proudhon conceived of social hierarchy primarily in terms of wealth distribution and political power. Economic models.
His advocacy for workers was clearly against the existing social hierarchy. He opposed the private ownership of large industry on those grounds.
It shouldn't come as any sort of surprise that leftist egalitarianism of the early 19th century didn't typically extend to race, gender or sexuality.

I never claimed that right-wing meant being against big government. I don't even claim that is what it means to be "right-wing" now in America. Because it doesn't. The vast majority of Republicans and conservatives doesn't care about libertarianism, neither about so-called right-wing nor left-wing libertarianism.
Our entire discussion started with the statement that Anarchism clearly is or was a left ideology.
That doesn't mean I'm arguing for the opposite.

It was point number three in your OP.

I use the term liberalism to describe specific movements. Today's social liberalism, and I was explicitly referring to them, for example, has very little to do with the original ideas of classic liberalism in the UK advanced by Adam Smith etc. Today's social liberals would call essays of classic liberlalism libertarian right-wing propaganda.

Yes, it's another America specific definition, although not unique to right-libertarians this time.
 
Intredasting thread, I'm only aware of left right in the context of modern American politics
 
It's not hard at all, as I keep saying it's the definition of the term.
No, you're completely contradicting yourself.
- Proudhon clearly was a leftist
- the definition of leftism is to fight social hierarchy, for example, leftists fighting for minorities
- Proudhon was an antisemitic, homophobe misogynist. Values which strongly support archaic models of society, which you defined as right wing.

Now, as this is obvious a contradiction, you're saying well he fought this 'social order' with different weapons.
But that's exactly the point. That's what makes him an anarchist, not a leftist.
He was opposed to an order in favor of an authority, not in favor of archaic thoughts about different parts of our society. Something he obviously didn't care much about.
"I protest against every order with which some authority may feel pleased on the basis of some alleged necessity to over-rule my free will".

You can clearly (well at least somewhat clearly) proof where he stands on a statism-anarchism scale.
You find a lot of different "contradicting" thoughts when you try to assign his proposals to a position on our contemporary ideological left-right scale.



Yes, it's another America specific definition, although not unique to right-libertarians this time.
What is an America-specific definition?
 
No, you're completely contradicting yourself.
- Proudhon clearly was a leftist
- the definition of leftism is to fight social hierarchy, for example, leftists fighting for minorities
- Proudhon was an antisemitic, homophobe misogynist. Values which strongly support archaic models of society, which you defined as right wing.

Now, as this is obvious a contradiction, you're saying well he fought this 'social order' with different weapons.
But that's exactly the point. That's what makes him an anarchist, not a leftist.
He was opposed to an order in favor of an authority, not in favor of archaic thoughts about different parts of our society. Something he obviously didn't care much about.
"I protest against every order with which some authority may feel pleased on the basis of some alleged necessity to over-rule my free will".

You can clearly (well at least somewhat clearly) proof where he stands on a statism-anarchism scale.
You find a lot of different "contradicting" thoughts when you try to assign his proposals to a position on our contemporary ideological left-right scale.

No, there's no contradiction. Being anti-semitic, homophobic and misogynistic wasn't part of his espoused political philosophy. He wasn't saying Anarchism is necessary to keep down Jews, gays and women.
The social hierarchy he fought against was primarily conceived in terms of class.
The same as all of his contemporaries.
Even later, the same applies to Karl Marx and the Victorian nature of his political writing.
Or earlier for that matter, in the late 18th century with the newly wealthy merchant class contesting the power of the monarchy and aristocracy (where the terms originate).
There was no racial, gender or sexual identity politics.
That doesn't make them "right-wing" in the least.

What is an America-specific definition?

Your use of "liberal". Everywhere else still uses it as per the political texts.
 
Intredasting thread, I'm only aware of left right in the context of modern American politics
That's because the political left/right is different throughout most countries in the world, and throughout different periods in history, too. There has never really been a unifying global spectrum defining this.
 
That's because the political left/right is different throughout most countries in the world, and throughout different periods in history, too. There has never really been a unifying global spectrum defining this.
Wouldn't that mean lecter isn't wrong, if he is speaking in the context of an American and American politics?

Why should Europeans from 100+ years ago be mentioned then?
 
No, there's no contradiction. Being anti-semitic, homophobic and misogynistic wasn't part of his espoused political philosophy.
That's not really true. He wasn't a politician, he was a philosopher, he wrote down his thoughts.
And he did write down his philosophical thoughts on homosexuality, marriage, relationships to women, love, and on Jews. The same way he wrote down his thoughts on state, property, society and authority. Sometimes in the same books. So you're just factually wrong here.
He wasn't saying Anarchism is necessary to keep down Jews, gays and women.
That's also not true you're simply misinformed.
He wrote about Jews in 'de la justice' and 'contradictions economiques'. He saw them as part of those bankers, rich and elites who have unjust authority over others, something anarchism would solve.
His thoughts sound actually not that different from Hitler's.
He wanted society to expel them from France, close synagogs and take away their right to work.
 
That's not really true. He wasn't a politician, he was a philosopher, he wrote down his thoughts.
And he did write down his philosophical thoughts on homosexuality, marriage, relationships to women, love, and on Jews. The same way he wrote down his thoughts on state, property, society and authority. Sometimes in the same books. So you're just factually wrong here.

That's also not true you're simply misinformed.
He wrote about Jews in 'de la justice' and 'contradictions economiques'. He saw them as part of those bankers, rich and elites who have unjust authority over others, something anarchism would solve.
His thoughts sound actually not that different from Hitler's.
He wanted society to expel them from France, close synagogs and take away their right to work.

Like I said, it's not a characteristic of his anarchism, and his writing on Jews, although a lot more repulsive, was similar to Marx in "Zur Judenfrage".
Their political philosophy was primarily economic.

Are you going to argue Marx "wasn't a leftist"?
 
All the way to the right is Monarchy/Dictatorship. Pure absolute power in the hands of one person.

All the way to the left is Anarchy/Communism. Power spread amongst all of the people in a given society.

Hope that clears things up.

Stalin, Lenin, Mao are all right wing?
 
[...] Why is Spencer getting so much media coverage? The aggressive media play could be, in the words of Daily Wire’s Editor-in-Chief Ben Shapiro, an attempt to paint conservatives and people on the right to all be secret Richard Spencer cabalists.
This could not be further from the truth. [...] Here are four reasons why Richard Spencer is a racist leftist:

1. He badmouths capitalism regularly and promotes Bernie Sanders-style healthcare.

Spencer spouts common leftist mantras, such as: capitalism is evil and exploitative, and big corporations are out to get the little guy. While Spencer does not explicitly acknowledge it, he is a socialist at heart, even advocating that the Right should adopt most of Bernie Sanders’ platform on universal healthcare and other economic issues.

2. He believes individualism and freedom are stupid ideas.

The American right’s ideology is predicated on the freedom of the individual to grow and thrive on his/her own without government intervention. The left, lacking faith in individualism, tends to think people need their hands held by the state and their freedoms restricted. Spencer stated at a recent speaking event at Auburn University that individualism and freedom were stupid concepts. He offers little rationale for his views, which could stem from his belief in racial collectivism.

3. He praises big government programs on a variety of issues.

Along with his advocacy of universal healthcare, Spencer offers big government programs to reinvent public transportation, solve climate issues, and forgive student debt. Even if any of these programs helped anything, which is doubtful, where would the money come from? Presumably higher taxes and higher deficits.

4. It’s a tactic of the left to play identity politics.

The right accepts and celebrates the idea that American and western culture is the greatest culture in the world. We are happy to encourage well-meaning and legal foreigners to assimilate into our culture in order for them to enjoy the benefits of pursing the American ideal. Richard Spencer, on the other hand, rejects the possibility that people either want to or should integrate with other cultures, as cultures tend to oppress each other. So in response to the left’s hard playing of minority racial grievances, Spencer uses the exact same logic to promote white racial grievances.

article: http://www.dailywire.com/news/16491/4-reasons-why-richard-spencer-racist-leftist-zack-miley

You know Bannon agrees with #1 as well. Ron Paul is no fan of this mockery we refer to as capitalism, while being a staunch capitalist.

In fact, I can't remember the last honest righty I have met that was willing to defend corporate america.
 
Wouldn't that mean lecter isn't wrong, if he is speaking in the context of an American and American politics?

Why should Europeans from 100+ years ago be mentioned then?
No, because that's the prism he has adopted for his ill-woven arguments.
 
Like I said, it's not a characteristic of his anarchism,

It's characteristic of his views on society and his position on our left-right scale.His hatred goes far beyond Marx' and he does demand actions which can only be undertaken by a system. He also includes those thoughts in his analysis of the status quo.He's a racist, an antisemite, a misogynist and a homophobe.

And the funny thing is all of this goes completely against your thesis of him being a leftist and leftism being defined by bravely challenging social hierarchies and fighting for equality. Because while HE thought jews destroy the society and are the secret elites, that, of course, was a conspiracy theory and today we'd say a right-wing conspiracy theory. It was the same European antisemitism which culminated with the holocaust in Nazi Germany under Adolf Hitler.
But those theories were socially acceptable. Being an antisemite and *-phobe and ranting against Jews was exactly the opposite of what you claim is "left". Anti-egalitarian views on social groups, genders, races and the believe that it's just to treat them differently. I mean your "lefty" went with the mob and was calling for both cleansing and genocide for God's sake.
 
It's characteristic of his views on society and his position on our left-right scale.His hatred goes far beyond Marx' and he does demand actions which can only be undertaken by a system. He also includes those thoughts in his analysis of the status quo.He's a racist, an antisemite, a misogynist and a homophobe.

And the funny thing is all of this goes completely against your thesis of him being a leftist and leftism being defined by bravely challenging social hierarchies and fighting for equality. Because while HE thought jews destroy the society and are the secret elites, that, of course, was a conspiracy theory and today we'd say a right-wing conspiracy theory. It was the same European antisemitism which culminated with the holocaust in Nazi Germany under Adolf Hitler.
But those theories were socially acceptable. Being an antisemite and *-phobe and ranting against Jews was exactly the opposite of what you claim is "left". Anti-egalitarian views on social groups, genders, races and the believe that it's just to treat them differently. I mean your "lefty" went with the mob and was calling for both cleansing and genocide for God's sake.

Sure, there was almost no racial, religious or gender egalitarianism at that stage. That doesn't go against the definition of their ideology as being "left-wing" due to being against the established hierarchy.
Like I said, none of those aspects of the social hierarchy were involved in the original "Left" and "Right" either.
Proudhon's theory of Anarchism was primarily economic, the same as Marx' theory of Communism. Proudhon was less of a utopian, but it still primarily revolved around shifting power from the capitalists and financiers to the workers. That's the defining aspects of their philosophies, and it's against the existing social hierarchy.
The further development of left-wing ideals doesn't make earlier leftist views right-wing. Similar to how Marxism has evolved and now there's Marxist-Feminism etc. Taking the same principles and applying them well outside the original scope. It doesn't make Marxism right-wing because Marx was a bigot and equated Judaism and capitalism.
 
Sure, there was almost no racial, religious or gender egalitarianism at that stage. That doesn't go against the definition of their ideology as being "left-wing" due to being against the established hierarchy.
You're just using 'social hierarchy' as a buzzword.
Once you define what this "hierarchy" is and simply exclude arbitrary criteria from your definition because our subject at hand doesn't fulfill it at a specific point in history, you can come to your already predetermined conclusion.

Le Pen is in favor of socialist policies but only for "her people" and within a nationalist system, others are excluded. Therefore she's a right-wing national socialist.
H. H. Hoppe is a 'libertarian' but thinks political dissidents and homosexuals can be physically removed from society, therefore he's an extremist right-wing libertarian.
Hitler had a strong sense for collectivism and a volkskoerper within an Aryan ethnostate, therefore he's literally Hitler.
Pierre-Joseph Proudhon wants less coercion and exploitation in a society from which he wants to remove or potentially kill Jews and thinks poorly of homosexuals, women and other minorities, therefore he is ......
.... a leftist who attacks archaic social structures.

Like I said, none of those aspects of the hierarchy were involved in the original "Left" and "Right" either.
And yet you think a left-right scale is an appropriate model for looking at and understanding political philosophies in the historical context and allows to make clear assignments while looking at very complex and paradoxical (even within the parameters of their time) philosophers.
You can't pretend that a philosophy which would be classified as being 'leftist' today is some sort of successor of philosophies which were seen as or called 'leftist' after the French revolution if you admit that the criteria have massively changed. I mean you can but it doesn't say anything.
You simply ignore certain criteria which might be inconvenient for a simplified narrative and choose an arbitrary, very generic and self-defined criterion as the common denominator.

Social egalitarianism isn't the same as legal egalitarianism, isn't the same as economic egalitarianism.
It's not only not the same, people may have a philosophical foundation which makes them strongly promote one of those philosophies while totally rejecting another.

Your definition of 'fighting against social structures' isn't suitable to assess any movement, let alone right and left. Right-Libertarians also fight against social structures. Because progressive taxation, top rates, UHC in European countries etc are in fact part of social structures and they're enforced by an authority, they're not the state of nature. They go against the contemporary public opinion and the political structures. That doesn't make them leftists.

The development of "Left-wing" ideals doesn't make earlier leftist views right-wing.
But it's not a 'development'. Classic liberalism advocated legal egalitarianism but not economic egalitarianism. Social Liberalism does. But that's not a development it forces you to answer fundamental philosophical questions about justice, rights, and society completely different.
 
You're just using 'social hierarchy' as a buzzword.
Once you define what this "hierarchy" is and simply exclude arbitrary criteria from your definition because our subject at hand doesn't fulfill it at a specific point in history, you can come to your already predetermined conclusion.

Le Pen is in favor of socialist policies but only for "her people" and within a nationalist system, others are excluded. Therefore she's a right-wing national socialist.
H. H. Hoppe is a 'libertarian' but thinks political dissidents and homosexuals can be physically removed from society, therefore he's an extremist right-wing libertarian.
Hitler had a strong sense for collectivism and a volkskoerper within an Aryan ethnostate, therefore he's literally Hitler.
Pierre-Joseph Proudhon wants less coercion and exploitation in a society from which he wants to remove or potentially kill Jews and thinks poorly of homosexuals, women and other minorities, therefore he is ......
.... a leftist who attacks archaic social structures.


And yet you think a left-right scale is an appropriate model for looking at and understanding political philosophies in the historical context and allows to make clear assignments while looking at very complex and paradoxical (even within the parameters of their time) philosophers.
You can't pretend that a philosophy which would be classified as being 'leftist' today is some sort of successor of philosophies which were seen as or called 'leftist' after the French revolution if you admit that the criteria have massively changed. I mean you can but it doesn't say anything.
You simply ignore certain criteria which might be inconvenient for a simplified narrative and choose an arbitrary, very generic and self-defined criterion as the common denominator.

Social egalitarianism isn't the same as legal egalitarianism, isn't the same as economic egalitarianism.
It's not only not the same, people may have a philosophical foundation which makes them strongly promote one of those philosophies while totally rejecting another.

Your definition of 'fighting against social structures' isn't suitable to assess any movement, let alone right and left. Right-Libertarians also fight against social structures. Because progressive taxation, top rates, UHC in European countries etc are in fact part of social structures and they're enforced by an authority, they're not the state of nature. They go against the contemporary public opinion and the political structures. That doesn't make them leftists.


But it's not a 'development'. Classic liberalism advocated legal egalitarianism but not economic egalitarianism. Social Liberalism does. But that's not a development it forces you to answer fundamental philosophical questions about justice, rights, and society completely different.

"Right" and "Left" are simplistic terms, but they've always meant support or opposition to existing social hierarchies in every historical context they've been used in, bar one.
That one exception is American Right-Libertarians, who've decided to redefine it in terms of size of Government, with "right wing" meaning small government.
That's the conceit of your OP, not my argument about the definition, in which I've said precisely nothing about how meaningful the terms are in understanding political ideology.
Redefining terms like "liberal" and "left-wing" to support a political agenda certainly isn't advancing a meaningful understanding of ideology.

Social hierarchy is another simple term, referring to the stratification of income, existing wealth, social status and derived power.

Right-Wing Libertarians largely have no problem with that stratification, only the existence of Government and the role it might play in it. To the extent that some of them still support slavery.

Nozick said:
The comparable question about an individual is whether a free system will allow him to sell himself into slavery. I believe that it would. (Other writers disagree.) It also would allow him permanently to commit himself never to enter into such a transaction.

Contrast that with left-libertarians.

Murray Bookchin said:
My use of the word hierarchy in the subtitle of this work (The Ecology of Freedom: The Emergence and Dissolution of Hierarchy) is meant to be provocative. There is a strong theoretical need to contrast hierarchy with the more widespread use of the words class and State; careless use of these terms can produce a dangerous simplification of social reality. To use the words hierarchy, class, and State interchangeably, as many social theorists do, is insidious and obscurantist. This practice, in the name of a "classless" or "libertarian" society, could easily conceal the existence of hierarchical relationships and a hierarchical sensibility, both of which-even in the absence of economic exploitation or political coercion-would serve to perpetuate unfreedom.

Le Pen is much like Bismarck, in that her preference for a strong welfare state is secondary to her primary goal of ethnic nationalism, which is either a conservative or reactionary approach to the existing social hierarchy.

Hoppe is on the "extreme" of the right-wing, because rather than just trying to maintain the existing hierarchy, he actually wants an overwhelmingly reactionary return to the aristocracy of the past.

Proudhon's contribution to Anarchism on the other hand, is primarily about promoting the case of the worker at the expense of the capitalist in the context of class struggle.
He didn't just call himself a socialist as a meaningless label, he used it to refer to his attacks on personal property and wage labour (which not coincidentally read very similar to Marx in terms of capitalist exploitation of wage labour). His supporters were a large part of the First International. That's unmistakably a left-wing attack on the existing social hierarchy.

I never said that every left-wing or right-wing ideology shared the same path of intellectual development.
I pointed out that Marx was a bigot, and silent on misogyny, but Marxist Feminism is now a thing. The fact that left wing ideologies of egalitarianism have developed to include the opposition to racial, gender and sexuality based stratification doesn't mean that ideologies which don't include those dimensions are right wing.
With the quite obvious historical examples I've already given.
 
Spencer is probably a shill. Look how much airtime on major networks this clown gets. Wouldn't be surprised if Soros is paying him. Why would Soros do that? To create racial division and tension. The ruling class has been using that tactic since the early days of America to stop slaves of different races from rising up in rebellion. It works extremely well.
 
They all believe in big government. It means more power for them FFS. Only right maybe wants to sell slightly less big government to attract their voter niche.
 
"Right" and "Left" are simplistic terms, but they've always meant support or opposition to existing social hierarchies in every historical context they've been used in, bar one.
That one exception is American Right-Libertarians, who've decided to redefine it in terms of size of Government, with "right wing" meaning small government.
That's the conceit of your OP, not my argument about the definition, in which I've said precisely nothing about how meaningful the terms are in understanding political ideology.
Redefining terms like "liberal" and "left-wing" to support a political agenda certainly isn't advancing a meaningful understanding of ideology.

Social hierarchy is another simple term, referring to the stratification of income, existing wealth, social status and derived power.

Would that mean that a right wing person form Iran would be considered left wing in USA? That person would be opposed to existing social hierarchies.
 
The only difference between the Alt-Right and the Far Left is that they are on different side of identity politics (Pro White vs Anti White)

Ha! This is probably one of the more accurate posts in this thread.
 
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