After 25 years of MMA.. One thing is painfully apparent...

[HIGH VALUE]

mma is a constant game of evolution between the wrestlers and the strikers with both side always evolving, gotta love it

 

[90 50]

mma is a constant game of evolution between the wrestlers and the strikers with both side always evolving, gotta love it

Someone like a prime Anderson was ko’ing wrestlers when they were trying to get takedowns.

When he started clowning and not taking wrestlers serous onnthe feet he started getting in trouble.

 

[cooks1]

I never said no rules, I said rules/judging/ref favor wrestlers.
Takedowns now are something that can, apparently, steal a round if timed just right. Like somehow a TD with no follow up but able to stay on top can cancel out everything else the other fighter did in a 10-9 round. And even the ufc shills are promoting TD's like they're some kind of grand phenomena.

Say what you want about Pride but a fighter attempting to finish the fight is much more deserving of points as opposed to someone trying to 'stay in dominant position' to win on points.

Wrestling, in and of itself, is not a 'finish the fight' base. It's a win on points base which is fine in wrestling, but wrestling is not a great spectator sport unless you talk to wrestlers.

LOL, wrestling is not a great spectator sport even if you do talk to wrestlers. I was a D-1 wrestler, though not a very good one. I do not recall particularly enjoying watching a dual meet or tournament over my years, aside from watching certain wrestlers compete. I loved competing though.

If you want to bitch about the way fights are scored, that is a legitimate gripe. As far as a takedown 'stealing' a round- it would have to be a pretty close round even with todays scoring. If a wrestler has been getting pieced up for 4 minutes and gets a TD with a minute to go, he will probably not win that round, even today. But if it's a close round, or if he is just a bit behind, he might just get the round scored in his favor. That's not stealing though, that's winning.

Where I think judges could be better at scoring is once a TD takes place. Some wrestlers that are good at getting TD's, but don't yet have great positional control or GNP, end up winning rounds even though they absorbed more damage or took more blows than they inflicted once they were on top. But those things don't typically occur at the highest levels.

What can not be debated though is the effectiveness of wrestling and the superior role it plays in determining outcomes in fights. In the ring, cage or otherwise. Elite wrestlers have disproportionately (though not exclusively) held the titles and elite rankings for a long, long time. Regardless of whatever rule changes have taken place. And the bottom line is elite wrestlers on average learn the other aspects of the MMA game faster and better than fighters from other disciplines learn elite wrestling.

In short, get used to them. As long as they are better at doing what they want to you than you are at doing what you want to them, they aren't going anywhere.

 

[rb3b3]

LOL, wrestling is not a great spectator sport even if you do talk to wrestlers. I was a D-1 wrestler, though not a very good one. I do not recall particularly enjoying watching a dual meet or tournament over my years, aside from watching certain wrestlers compete. I loved competing though.

If you want to bitch about the way fights are scored, that is a legitimate gripe. As far as a takedown 'stealing' a round- it would have to be a pretty close round even with todays scoring. If a wrestler has been getting pieced up for 4 minutes and gets a TD with a minute to go, he will probably not win that round, even today. But if it's a close round, or if he is just a bit behind, he might just get the round scored in his favor. That's not stealing though, that's winning.

Where I think judges could be better at scoring is once a TD takes place. Some wrestlers that are good at getting TD's, but don't yet have great positional control or GNP, end up winning rounds even though they absorbed more damage or took more blows than they inflicted once they were on top. But those things don't typically occur at the highest levels.

What can not be debated though is the effectiveness of wrestling and the superior role it plays in determining outcomes in fights. In the ring, cage or otherwise. Elite wrestlers have disproportionately (though not exclusively) held the titles and elite rankings for a long, long time. Regardless of whatever rule changes have taken place. And the bottom line is elite wrestlers on average learn the other aspects of the MMA game faster and better than fighters from other disciplines learn elite wrestling.

In short, get used to them. As long as they are better at doing what they want to you than you are at doing what you want to them, they aren't going anywhere.

Its just crazy to think that over all these years, wrestlers still take the cake as a whole in general.. So if you go to the best fighters of all time the majority are wrestlers.

1) GSP, Amazingly no wrestling background but yet won the majority of his fights by wrestling, even outwrestling decorated wrestlers.. Its still mind boggling to me.

2) Fedor, sambo

3) Mighty Mouse wrestling. Was finally beat by u guessed it a wrestler lol

4) DC, wrestler

5) Khabib, Sambo

* I can not have any cheaters on my all time p4p list.

 

[mkt]

Someone like a prime Anderson was ko’ing wrestlers when they were trying to get takedowns.

When he started clowning and not taking wrestlers serous onnthe feet he started getting in trouble.

When? Lutter, Hendo, Chael (rematch) and Weidman (rematch) all took him down and won the 1st round via wrestling. Chael also beat him with wrestling for 23 minutes in their first fight....and we know about Weidman. His success came when wrestlers abandoned their wrestling strategy (Hendo) or when he stuffied TDs and forced them to stand. When did he KO a wrestler when they were in the middle of a TD? That's actually very rare and hard to do...it's happened a few times (the first time was Zane Frazier vs. a Japanese grappler), but not often.

 

[Ghostoftheville]

- No, when you run into punches all the time you're not getting any points. You get credit when the opponent constantly backs off and you chase him down. Additionally and more importantly, both fighters have total control over their body and space. Not when you're on the ground.

- You can't cut off in the cage. It's simply impossibly. The corners are too wide.

- Nobody punches with the intention to cut and to get the advantage of having an opponent who can't see through all the blood. it's much much harder to do to. Cutting with elbows is easy, very easy. Wrestlers constantly do. Less now but they still do.

- Stalling the fight without having control over your opponent is fine. What's the problem? I mean you should get penalized but your opponent can just take advantage of your inactivity. Not when a wrestler is lying on top of you.

Deigo Sanchez would beg to differ and has many wins where he was getting popped with shots but his aggression alone won the fight.

If you believe cutting the cage off is impossible wouldn't that put wrestlers at another disadvantage as strikers could use their superior footwork to avoid getting trapped against the cage?

Stalling in the stand-up is an issue, but there are no repercussions for it, a grappler on the other hand has to always look busy with strikes instead of being able to advance their position. This is a rule created for the sole purpose of giving strikers a get out of jail free pass.

 

[grooves12]

How do ufc rules favor wrestlers? Please tell me what “rules” favour wrestlers?

Not allowing knees/kicks to the head drastically changes ground dynamics. While it would mean grounded fighters would take more damage. It would also make missing on a takedown MUCH more costly. A good sprawl followed by knees to the head ends a fight. It would make fighters more reluctant to shoot for takedowns and lead to more standup.

Khabib was in position for several minutes early in the fight where strikes to the head of a "downed" fighter would have cost him the fight.

 

[Deleted member 506663]

LOL, wrestling is not a great spectator sport even if you do talk to wrestlers. I was a D-1 wrestler, though not a very good one. I do not recall particularly enjoying watching a dual meet or tournament over my years, aside from watching certain wrestlers compete. I loved competing though.

If you want to bitch about the way fights are scored, that is a legitimate gripe. As far as a takedown 'stealing' a round- it would have to be a pretty close round even with todays scoring. If a wrestler has been getting pieced up for 4 minutes and gets a TD with a minute to go, he will probably not win that round, even today. But if it's a close round, or if he is just a bit behind, he might just get the round scored in his favor. That's not stealing though, that's winning.

Where I think judges could be better at scoring is once a TD takes place. Some wrestlers that are good at getting TD's, but don't yet have great positional control or GNP, end up winning rounds even though they absorbed more damage or took more blows than they inflicted once they were on top. But those things don't typically occur at the highest levels.

What can not be debated though is the effectiveness of wrestling and the superior role it plays in determining outcomes in fights. In the ring, cage or otherwise. Elite wrestlers have disproportionately (though not exclusively) held the titles and elite rankings for a long, long time. Regardless of whatever rule changes have taken place. And the bottom line is elite wrestlers on average learn the other aspects of the MMA game faster and better than fighters from other disciplines learn elite wrestling.

In short, get used to them. As long as they are better at doing what they want to you than you are at doing what you want to them, they aren't going anywhere.

You mean "grappler"...not wrestler. And you can emphasize what can't be debated all you want but it can and a great counter made to the OP about WRESTLING being the best base.

I knew you had history of wrestling by your obvious bias.

 

[Chappi]

Wrestling is good to hold your opponent down and that's it.
But doing that for 15 minutes you will most likely get a gift win from the judges.
Personally I would call that avoiding the fight, not dominating it.
If we talk about how wrestlers finish fights then we're not talking about wrestling anymore, now are we ?
Wrestlers can finish fights because they trained GnP and BJJ submissions, wich like I said is not wrestling.
So wrestling by itself is not dominant, but just 1 part of MMA judges just happen to like, nothing more.

 

[rb3b3]

Wrestling is good to hold your opponent down and that's it.
But doing that for 15 minutes you will most likely get a gift win from the judges.
Personally I would call that avoiding the fight, not dominating it.
If we talk about how wrestlers finish fights then we're not talking about wrestling anymore, now are we ?
Wrestlers can finish fights because they trained GnP and BJJ submissions, wich like I said is not wrestling.
So wrestling by itself is not dominant, but just 1 part of MMA judges just happen to like, nothing more.

LOL!

 

[Zebra Cheeks]

wtf are you from the year 2000? The cage is universally known for help getting up when on the bottom, wrestlers are stood up within 10 secs if they arent advancing after takedowns, and they now have phones where you can go on the internet and learn things "smart phones. Ufc rules are 100 percent geared towards strikers.

Stand ups have been super frequent lately

 

[POWER2]

After 25+ years, it is painfully apparent that fighters with a wrestling background have continued to dominate this sport. Who wouldve ever thought that wrestling which was never really considered a martial art, would be the absolute BEST background a fighter can have in any mma discipline.

Maybe in another 25 years, Fighters will develop a style that will be a nightmare for ALL fighters who excel at wrestling.

69% The percentage of total takedowns avoided
submitted Olympic wrestler

 

[cooks1]

You mean "grappler"...not wrestler. And you can emphasize what can't be debated all you want but it can and a great counter made to the OP about WRESTLING being the best base.

I knew you had history of wrestling by your obvious bias.

LOL. That's like saying math is biased. Damn addition, always comes out to more!!!!!

It's not bias. It is simple fact. Go back to all the champs in UFC history. How many were/are wrestlers? How many came from/come from other disciplines? That's it.

 

[Viking Power]

what are u talking about??? although gsp didnt have a wrestling background, one can argue he was the BEST wrestler in the history of the ufc! He dominated wrestlers with his wrestling... it was truly amazing! GSP won the majority of his fights by WRESTLING!!!! WAKE UP!

This.

 

[mma_genius]

Its not that i just figured it out, its more of a shocking realization that over 20 years and here we are. wrestlers are still dominant.

Not shocking at all. Once they learned submission defense, anyone without takedown defense was going to get mauled by these guys.

 

[12ga.]

The only reason wrestlers dominate UFC is because of the UFC rules. They heavily favour wrestlers. The cage heavily favours wrestlers as well.

LOL its just the opposite. wrestlers can not even fight when on the ground. 90% of rules work against wrestlers (or man who has control of another man on the ground - doesnt have to be a wrestler but usually is)

GSP with headbutts, knees to head and 12/6s would have a 100% KO ratio instead of rules crippled decisionator he was.

 

[Andreh]

Of course, you can't do upkicks, you can't do knees on four, you can't do nothing against. This favours wrestlers clearly.

 

[Islam Imamate]

After 25+ years, it is painfully apparent that fighters with a wrestling background have continued to dominate this sport. Who wouldve ever thought that wrestling which was never really considered a martial art, would be the absolute BEST background a fighter can have in any mma discipline.

Maybe in another 25 years, Fighters will develop a style that will be a nightmare for ALL fighters who excel at wrestling.

Well Khabib's background is in combat Sambo and he's beaten many wrestlers as did Fedor

what are u talking about??? although gsp didnt have a wrestling background, one can argue he was the BEST wrestler in the history of the ufc! He dominated wrestlers with his wrestling... it was truly amazing! GSP won the majority of his fights by WRESTLING!!!! WAKE UP!

And he is one of the best MMA wrestlers himself.

GSP himself credits that to his karate background, not his wrestling. Its because of his footwork, he's able to get in and out in a way that allows him to avoid takedowns and secure them. He said as much on Rogan's podcast and I remember Sherk years ago saying it was GSP's footwork that most impressed him.

"That's what I use for my takedown, the shoot, that people see, it's zero wrestling. It has nothing to do with my wrestling. My wrestling is once I get that leg, I'll finish the takedown. But how I get in and out is because of karate. People are like, ‘no way, Karate, no.' And I'm like, 'yes.' Karate allows me to cut the distance and take the people down. I have a very good single, a very good double and very good penetration. It's because of my leg, the way I do it, and the timing is because of my karate. I wrestle, too, but my karate is primary. Before I started wrestling, I was a karate guy pure."

If you look at most wrestlers, their takedown average is actually low because they often have to chain wrestle to get the guy to the ground. But GSP is different, he has a very high rate of success especially given how often he attempts takedowns and that's because of his unique skill set, coming form karate, that guys with a wrestling background don't have.

 

[Vegesus44]

As soon the rules change, wrastling is fucked.

 

[rb3b3]

Not shocking at all. Once they learned submission defense, anyone without takedown defense was going to get mauled by these guys.

To me it really was shocking... Before there was any ufc, i had always thought a black belt karate dude would fk anyone up in their path. I never thought a wrestler would be able to beat up any black belt in any discipline. Here we are now 25+ years later and yet like i said wrestlers are still dominating this sport. I first took interest in this sport because like so many others, i wanted to see what style of fighter would be the best style in a street fight and this was the closest thing to a street fight.

I wouldve never figured wrestling background would be the best of any mixed martial art to have. i wrestled right up until my senior year of highschool, so
maybe thats why i never really thought much about it.