Zookeeper Gabe’s Animal Thread Vol 9.0

[Zookeeper Gabe]

It sounds like you are saying that MOST zoo animals are bred in captivity and some are saved from the wild.


That doesn't seem like a life any animal would choose or could truly love living to me... being bred in captivity like that .....

I mean, what are you basing your opinions on? It sounds like even when you visit zoos you are doing so with a preconceived notion of them. Your last response makes it seem like you were happier when you thought they were taken from the wild? You should really do some research on all of the good that modern zoos do and poke around on those links some. Zoos are some of the biggest contributors to conservation programs, they literally help save species from extinction with in-situ and ex-situ programs.

 

[Deleted member 577981]

I mean, what are you basing your opinions on? It sounds like even when you visit zoos you are doing so with a preconceived notion of them. Your last response makes it seem like you were happier when you thought they were taken from the wild? You should really do some research on all of the good that modern zoos do and poke around on those links some. Zoos are some of the biggest contributors to conservation programs, they literally help save species from extinction with in-situ and ex-situ programs.

edited response.

im not sure how you got the impression that i would be happier if they were taken from the wild. i think i would place that as equally egregious to breeding animals in captivity to display to human beings for entertainment.

as to the assumption that animals ive seen in zoos dont seem happy im not sure its fair to characterize that as an assumption as i think its pretty much the ONLY thing that motivates zoos trying to do better all the time in terms of enrichment and habitat. I can still remember the gorilla at a zoo near my home that lived in a literal cage the size of a large bedroom with a fake tree in it for its whole life.... i dont think its fair to call it an assumption to think that gorilla was not happy. now that same zoo has a larger habitat and it is much better but in no way can it even begin to enrich a gorillas life in the way living in the wild would.

in the absence of proof that they are happier in zoos (im certain that doesn't exist) i suppose the same question could be asked of zoos though...... why are zoo's assuming animals are not unhappy and if we are not sure where they would be happier in zoo's then i suppose the burden would be on the ones taking them out of the wild and then breeding them in captivity to justify before taking such actions.

a couple posts ago you suggested my daughter ask a zookeeper and listen to them.... that's what we are doing here. but you have been pretty evasive about answering the questions we have asked in any direct way. i honestly never intended any offence here. what i have gathered from your answers is that most animals are born and bred in captivity, a very small amount who are mostly birds are wounded and brought to zoos for safe living quarters, and some animals are still taken from the wild.

in light of these facts i suppose my opinion of zoo's is the same as it was before and as a person who has a deep and profound love of nature and wildlife i think zoo's are mostly selfishly exploitative businesses who trade in animals lives. the degree of selfishness and exploitation runs a pretty wide gambit depending on the zoos and whatever good they actually do probably can and should be done in other forms that do not doom generations of animals to captivity for human profit.

i don't know what the price tag of a zoo setting would be were all the animals living there to live fully happy healthy lives but i'm guessing its prohibitive.

 

[The_Renaissance]

Well I would say you totally missed out, San Diego zoo is one of the finest facilities in the world. Its incredibly easy to misinterpret lots of animal behaviors as them being sad or unhappy when it often isn’t the case at all.

The overwhelming majority of animals you see in zoos are NOT caught in the wild(I don’t know where you got your info, but sounds like animal rights propaganda), in fact it is a tiny % that are from the wild. Most of the animals you see in zoos have come from other facilities and would not survive in the wild. Many of the animals that have come from the wild are actually animals that have been injured and can not fend for themselves anymore but can live a long happy life in captivity. Pretty much every single bald eagle you see in a zoo is a wild animal that has been injured (shot, hit by car, whatever) and can’t live without the care of us.

Now, no zoo is perfect and i even found things at San Diego I would have liked to improve. But the good zoos are always trying to improve on animal welfare and husbandry. I’ve been a keeper for almost 20years now and have seen so much growth and continue to look forward to it.
As for your daughter, I encourage her to talk to a zookeeper sometime and be willing to listen to them.

San Diego zoo was great, yeah.

 

[Zookeeper Gabe]

edited response.

im not sure how you got the impression that i would be happier if they were taken from the wild. i think i would place that as equally egregious to breeding animals in captivity to display to human beings for entertainment.

as to the assumption that animals ive seen in zoos dont seem happy im not sure its fair to characterize that as an assumption as i think its pretty much the ONLY thing that motivates zoos trying to do better all the time in terms of enrichment and habitat. I can still remember the gorilla at a zoo near my home that lived in a literal cage the size of a large bedroom with a fake tree in it for its whole life.... i dont think its fair to call it an assumption to think that gorilla was not happy. now that same zoo has a larger habitat and it is much better but in no way can it even begin to enrich a gorillas life in the way living in the wild would.

in the absence of proof that they are happier in zoos (im certain that doesn't exist) i suppose the same question could be asked of zoos though...... why are zoo's assuming animals are not unhappy and if we are not sure where they would be happier in zoo's then i suppose the burden would be on the ones taking them out of the wild and then breeding them in captivity to justify before taking such actions.

a couple posts ago you suggested my daughter ask a zookeeper and listen to them.... that's what we are doing here. but you have been pretty evasive about answering the questions we have asked in any direct way. i honestly never intended any offence here. what i have gathered from your answers is that most animals are born and bred in captivity, a very small amount who are mostly birds are wounded and brought to zoos for safe living quarters, and some animals are still taken from the wild.

in light of these facts i suppose my opinion of zoo's is the same as it was before and as a person who has a deep and profound love of nature and wildlife i think zoo's are mostly selfishly exploitative businesses who trade in animals lives. the degree of selfishness and exploitation runs a pretty wide gambit depending on the zoos and whatever good they actually do probably can and should be done in other forms that do not doom generations of animals to captivity for human profit.

i don't know what the price tag of a zoo setting would be were all the animals living there to live fully happy healthy lives but i'm guessing its prohibitive.

I got that impression from how you had worded your response to me, and in no way have I been evasive at all. I have answered your questions and am encouraging you to do some research on your own. But they way you are asking questions is the way someone asks that has already made up their mind. If you are truly interested in understanding what modern zoos stand for, education, conservation, animal welfare, you need to start listening. Zoos aren’t some major profit driven company, many are nonprofits and operate close to the red on a yearly basis and are constantly doing everything they can to improve animals habitats and health (both mental and physical).

I have been in this business a long time and care more about animals and their happiness than anyone can truly know without having done the job.

See, your gorilla example is a perfect example of zoos changing how they do things to better the animals lives. When I started back in 04 at my second facility the gorilla exhibit there was subpar, since then they have done two major renovations costing over 10 million dollars. Now they have expansive habitats inside and outside, it’s amazing.

 

[Deleted member 577981]

I got that impression from how you had worded your response to me, and in no way have I been evasive at all. I have answered your questions and am encouraging you to do some research on your own. But they way you are asking questions is the way someone asks that has already made up their mind. If you are truly interested in understanding what modern zoos stand for, education, conservation, animal welfare, you need to start listening. Zoos aren’t some major profit driven company, many are nonprofits and operate close to the red on a yearly basis and are constantly doing everything they can to improve animals habitats and health (both mental and physical).

I have been in this business a long time and care more about animals and their happiness than anyone can truly know without having done the job.

See, your gorilla example is a perfect example of zoos changing how they do things to better the animals lives. When I started back in 04 at my second facility the gorilla exhibit there was subpar, since then they have done two major renovations costing over 10 million dollars. Now they have expansive habitats inside and outside, it’s amazing.

your positron as a zookeeper does not give you an automatic compassion that transcends all other peoples perspectives and love of animals....... in fact a statement like that reveals arrogance on your part. you have been evasive and you made your mind up about where we were coming from very quickly. its ok. people disagree. you have been pretty unable to hear where we have been coming from and you have been evasive. none the information you have given has pointed in a positive direction for us.

its ok. you are the wrong person for us have a sincere conversation with and that's fine. people disagree. we can agree to disagree.

 

[Mack McMarkles]

...
in light of these facts i suppose my opinion of zoo's is the same as it was before and as a person who has a deep and profound love of nature and wildlife i think zoo's are mostly selfishly exploitative businesses who trade in animals lives. the degree of selfishness and exploitation runs a pretty wide gambit depending on the zoos and whatever good they actually do probably can and should be done in other forms that do not doom generations of animals to captivity for human profit....

In all honesty, reading your posts I don't think you came here other than to get to the position where you could say the above to Gabe. I do not doubt your daughter shares your view, but you need to just own the view you keep espousing instead of trying to hide behind her as you keep defaulting back to 'your' view all through it.

Anyway, its up to Gabe, but i cannot see why he would continue this. Point 'said' and 'heard', rebuttals given which you reject, and that is fine. Nothing more to see here, imo. We know you disagree with zoo's.

 

[Deleted member 577981]

In all honesty, reading your posts I don't think you came here other than to get to the position where you could say the above to Gabe. I do not doubt your daughter shares your view, but you need to just own the view you keep espousing instead of trying to hide behind her as you keep defaulting back to 'your' view all through it.

Anyway, its up to Gabe, but i cannot see why he would continue this. Point 'said' and 'heard', rebuttals given which you reject, and that is fine. Nothing more to see here, imo. We know you disagree with zoo's.

you are not reading carefully. we came in thinking there would be some kind of good we were unaware of ... charity... or some kind of other totally unknown to us good that can only come if zoo's were in existence that might mitigate the other negative espects of zoo's. we came in genuinely open to hearing what that info might be. but nothing has been forthcoming.

as to my view verses my daughters view you are being very disingenuous. we do not share the same views.... she is much less open minded than me on this topic and i was reaching out to a zookeeper to get information if not to change her mind at leaste to soften her perspective so that it is more inclusive. pointing out the bottom line of her/my perspective just saves time and allows any sincere person to address those issues straight on.

we have not received that information or perspective and thats fine but im not allowing gabe to question my sincerity here when we/i came in absolutely wanting to be deeply respectful but knowing it would be a touchy subject.

 

[JBSchroeds]

Hungry Hungry Puffball (tawny frogmouth chick)

 

[Mack McMarkles]

Hungry Hungry Puffball (tawny frogmouth chick)

Its a Muppet

.

 

[Zookeeper Gabe]

your positron as a zookeeper does not give you an automatic compassion that transcends all other peoples perspectives and love of animals....... in fact a statement like that reveals arrogance on your part. you have been evasive and you made your mind up about where we were coming from very quickly. its ok. people disagree. you have been pretty unable to hear where we have been coming from and you have been evasive. none the information you have given has pointed in a positive direction for us.

its ok. you are the wrong person for us have a sincere conversation with and that's fine. people disagree. we can agree to disagree.

I understand this is your first time having this conversation with an animal care professional. This is not remotely the first time I have had this conversation, relatives, friends of friends and countless strangers on the internet have replied in similar fashion. What you call arrogance, I call familiarity.

I have literally known since I was a small kid what I wanted to do with my life and I dedicated my life to achieving that goal. For you to not even suggest you were willing to research any of the information I gave you suggested right away you were anti-cap. My position and experience gives me an intimate knowledge of how zoos actually operate, not just from what I’ve read on the internet.

 

[Deleted member 577981]

I understand this is your first time having this conversation with an animal care professional. This is not remotely the first time I have had this conversation, relatives, friends of friends and countless strangers on the internet have replied in similar fashion. What you call arrogance, I call familiarity.

I have literally known since I was a small kid what I wanted to do with my life and I dedicated my life to achieving that goal. For you to not even suggest you were willing to research any of the information I gave you suggested right away you were anti-cap. My position and experience gives me an intimate knowledge of how zoos actually operate, not just from what
I’ve read on the internet.

i see why you have been so unresponsive and elusive. you made wrong assumptions about the nature of the inquiry based on past experience. on the other hand i came in being extremely careful not to trigger this disordered reaction from you but it inevitably went the only direction you are capable of going with it.

i have a deep love of christianity and am attacked endlessly for that love. but i am also educated in that field. i have thought about how poorly you have handled this in comparison with the patience and generosity with which i handle bad faith attacks let alone the genuine inquiry like the one i made. your distaste was apparent form the beginning. my generosity comes from a deep security in christianity and a genuine goodwill towards those who might appreciate that were they to understand it. i dont even mind at all if a person, after hearing what it REALLY is, still doesn't believe it or care for it. i am still glad to have just clarified an issue for them.

you have failed to advocate in any way for zoo's and sadly maybe only because of pride and arrogance and unwillingness and not due to any possible information that might have done some good. in either case i can see right through you gabe and your underhanded attempt to defame my inquiry do to your emotionalism.

im sorry you took so much offence that you are/were unable to see this situation clearly.

 

[jefferz]

My friendly cat, Georges, that hangs around the house brought me a new kitten when I was having breakfast on the porch. I have feral cats on the farm and Georges must have stolen one. I figured if I tried to return it to the feral cats, they'd reject it. Or maybe the mother got killed, and it wouldn't survive. Either way, I ended up with another cat, Molly.

 

[Mack McMarkles]

i see why you have been so unresponsive and elusive. you made wrong assumptions about the nature of the inquiry based on past experience. on the other hand i came in being extremely careful not to trigger this disordered reaction from you but it inevitably went the only direction you are capable of going with it.

i have a deep love of christianity and am attacked endlessly for that love. but i am also educated in that field. i have thought about how poorly you have handled this in comparison with the patience and generosity with which i handle bad faith attacks let alone the genuine inquiry like the one i made. your distaste was apparent form the beginning. my generosity comes from a deep security in christianity and a genuine goodwill towards those who might appreciate that were they to understand it. i dont even mind at all if a person, after hearing what it REALLY is, still doesn't believe it or care for it. i am still glad to have just clarified an issue for them.

you have failed to advocate in any way for zoo's and sadly maybe only because of pride and arrogance and unwillingness and not due to any possible information that might have done some good. in either case i can see right through you gabe and your underhanded attempt to defame my inquiry do to your emotionalism.

im sorry you took so much offence that you are/were unable to see this situation clearly.

I want you to re-read what Abe said and your reply.

He tried to reply thoughtfully and your summation was to 'he was wrong in how he replied to you based on his bad assumptions' and 'you were only being extremely careful and acted with generosity and patience'.

At this point my view (and it is only my view) is that you only came here for a fight with the goal of finding ways to dump on the 'zookeeper'. No matter how he replies you will characterize with the worst language possible while attributing yourself with nothin but angelic purpose here.

Again it is up to Gabe, what he wants to do with this discussion but i would not engage it as this person is neither looking for any data to inform his views nor trying to share his with you. He is here to troll and fight with the zookeeper, full stop. At least that is how I read it, having re-read his posts and not seeing all this grace he attributes to them.

 

[Zookeeper Gabe]

i see why you have been so unresponsive and elusive. you made wrong assumptions about the nature of the inquiry based on past experience. on the other hand i came in being extremely careful not to trigger this disordered reaction from you but it inevitably went the only direction you are capable of going with it.

i have a deep love of christianity and am attacked endlessly for that love. but i am also educated in that field. i have thought about how poorly you have handled this in comparison with the patience and generosity with which i handle bad faith attacks let alone the genuine inquiry like the one i made. your distaste was apparent form the beginning. my generosity comes from a deep security in christianity and a genuine goodwill towards those who might appreciate that were they to understand it. i dont even mind at all if a person, after hearing what it REALLY is, still doesn't believe it or care for it. i am still glad to have just clarified an issue for them.

you have failed to advocate in any way for zoo's and sadly maybe only because of pride and arrogance and unwillingness and not due to any possible information that might have done some good. in either case i can see right through you gabe and your underhanded attempt to defame my inquiry do to your emotionalism.

im sorry you took so much offence that you are/were unable to see this situation clearly.

i see why you have been so unresponsive and elusive. you made wrong assumptions about the nature of the inquiry based on past experience. on the other hand i came in being extremely careful not to trigger this disordered reaction from you but it inevitably went the only direction you are capable of going with it.

i have a deep love of christianity and am attacked endlessly for that love. but i am also educated in that field. i have thought about how poorly you have handled this in comparison with the patience and generosity with which i handle bad faith attacks let alone the genuine inquiry like the one i made. your distaste was apparent form the beginning. my generosity comes from a deep security in christianity and a genuine goodwill towards those who might appreciate that were they to understand it. i dont even mind at all if a person, after hearing what it REALLY is, still doesn't believe it or care for it. i am still glad to have just clarified an issue for them.

you have failed to advocate in any way for zoo's and sadly maybe only because of pride and arrogance and unwillingness and not due to any possible information that might have done some good. in either case i can see right through you gabe and your underhanded attempt to defame my inquiry do to your emotionalism.

im sorry you took so much offence that you are/were unable to see this situation clearly.

This is the last I will respond to you, it was very clear you didn’t want to learn anything from your posts. You claim I was being evasive and arrogant when you didn’t respond to a single thing I said. I brought up multiple things that modern zoos do and you completely ignored them.
In a typical ideologue fashion you responded with emotional arguments and attempted to make me out to be the bad guy. If you had wanted to have any sort of honest discussion I was open, but you seemed more interested in deflecting and not actually responding to any points. It’s actually quite sad that I knew how this would turn out, yet I was still willing to engage you. Be willing to open your mind and listen, especially when dealing with someone that has extensive knowledge and experience in an issue.

 

[Deleted member 577981]

This is the last I will respond to you, it was very clear you didn’t want to learn anything from your posts. You claim I was being evasive and arrogant when you didn’t respond to a single thing I said. I brought up multiple things that modern zoos do and you completely ignored them.
In a typical ideologue fashion you responded with emotional arguments and attempted to make me out to be the bad guy. If you had wanted to have any sort of honest discussion I was open, but you seemed more interested in deflecting and not actually responding to any points. It’s actually quite sad that I knew how this would turn out, yet I was still willing to engage you. Be willing to open your mind and listen, especially when dealing with someone that has extensive knowledge and experience in an issue.

I'm sorry you feel this way. I can't relate at all to what you are saying.

 

[TribalDrumz]

This is the last I will respond to you, it was very clear you didn’t want to learn anything from your posts. You claim I was being evasive and arrogant when you didn’t respond to a single thing I said. I brought up multiple things that modern zoos do and you completely ignored them.
In a typical ideologue fashion you responded with emotional arguments and attempted to make me out to be the bad guy. If you had wanted to have any sort of honest discussion I was open, but you seemed more interested in deflecting and not actually responding to any points. It’s actually quite sad that I knew how this would turn out, yet I was still willing to engage you. Be willing to open your mind and listen, especially when dealing with someone that has extensive knowledge and experience in an issue.

Don’t even bother bro that guy has more posts on Bigfoot, UFOs, god than anyone else on this forum.
I feel bad for the brainwashing of his daughter.

 

[Zookeeper Gabe]

Don’t even bother bro that guy has more posts on Bigfoot, UFOs, god than anyone else on this forum.
I feel bad for the brainwashing of his daughter.

I learned that Bigfoot is a spirit (from Rez Dogs) and that’s why we can’t take pictures of him

 

[TribalDrumz]

I learned that Bigfoot is a spirit (from Rez Dogs) and that’s why we can’t take pictures of him

lol Discovery Network/Animal Planet should be sued for these shows

 

[Zookeeper Gabe]

My friendly cat, Georges, that hangs around the house brought me a new kitten when I was having breakfast on the porch. I have feral cats on the farm and Georges must have stolen one. I figured if I tried to return it to the feral cats, they'd reject it. Or maybe the mother got killed, and it wouldn't survive. Either way, I ended up with another cat, Molly.

Fantastic my friend, looks similar to my kitten I got when she was found abandoned at two weeks old and very sick under a porch. Now she’s five and a rotten little shit and I love her.

 

[Aegon Spengler]

your positron as a zookeeper does not give you an automatic compassion that transcends all other peoples perspectives and love of animals....... in fact a statement like that reveals arrogance on your part. you have been evasive and you made your mind up about where we were coming from very quickly. its ok. people disagree. you have been pretty unable to hear where we have been coming from and you have been evasive. none the information you have given has pointed in a positive direction for us.

its ok. you are the wrong person for us have a sincere conversation with and that's fine. people disagree. we can agree to disagree.

I would postulate based on human life that animals hate living in the wild. Humans are animals and we prefer shelter and safety and easy access to food. Why would another creature be different? Zoos are set up aesthetically to look like something these animals will accept, the same is true of apartment complexes.

Is it better to be constantly be hunted, never knowing where your next meal is coming from, with humans (other animals) always encroaching? Everywhere there is a natural habitat, human beings show up to build there, and kill/eat every animal they can find. Even when the government sets up regulations etc, people just ignore them.

If we had modern style Zoos back when the Barbary lion or Dodo bird was around, those species might still exist today.

Zoos act as key tools of preservation in the presence of cruel human expansion. Without them I have no doubt many more animals would be extinct from poaching or encroachment.