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your thoughts on driving checkpoints

I'm not a fan of stops without probable cause.

However, I know for sure the threat of checkpoints reduces the amount of drunk drivers out there. How much, there's no way to know...but dudes are scurred of them and just might arrange for alternate transportation if they know they're afoot.

So I'm conflicted. Overall I'd probably say I'm against them - pursue drunk drivers via other means...park down the road from the bar and watch for people driving out of there like drunkards.
 
But they are random. There aren't designated dui checkpoint stops one must pass through constantly as would be the case with going through a metal detector to enter a federal courthouse. Their location, time and duration are random.

Moreover, a metal detector is a much more effective measure at accomplishing its purported goal when compared to dui checkpoints. Where is the evidence that general suspicionless stops searching for drunk drivers is anymore effective than using traditional law enforcement methods based on the notion of individualized suspicion?

And your argument that you 'aren't detained' at such a stop doesn't stand up to scrutiny. One is most certainly detained for 4th amendment purposes at a dui checkpoint.

The locations are random but that doesn't violate any constitutionality requirements. Randomness only matters to the extent that they are selecting drivers randomly. So long as every car that passes through the checkpoint is stopped - there is no random search.

The metal detector equivalent is the same. Metal detector locations are random. They are set up whenever and where ever someone feels there's a need. They are not random in that everyone must go through them. Random locations are fine, random people are not.

As far as effectiveness goes, SCOTUS felt that the research available upheld their effectiveness.

Detention is also in favor of checkpoints. The Court has frequently weighed the extent of the intrusion and upheld cases where the intrusion is not substantial. Motorists are not obliged to pass through checkpoints and can turn their vehicles around to take alternative routes to their destination. More importantly, the length and depth of the intrusion is minimal compared to the government interest in stopping drunk driving.

It takes longer to get through airport security than most sobriety checkpoints. I suppose you should point out another area where forced checkpoints exist (metal detectors, airports, border security, etc.) and why those checkpoints aren't too intrusive and these are?
 
These threads always bring out the silliest high horse hypocrites.

I'll bet over half of you have drank over the legal limit and driven home.
 
Could care less. I got a kick out of Trapster bending over and taking it up the ass from congress a few years back and agreeing to remove dui checkpoint from their list of things you can mark a location for. I still use it, I just mark checkpoints as accidents lol
 
when someone you love gets killed by a drunk driver you may think different. Maybe not, but something to consider

I'm not a fan of stops without probable cause.

However, I know for sure the threat of checkpoints reduces the amount of drunk drivers out there. How much, there's no way to know...but dudes are scurred of them and just might arrange for alternate transportation if they know they're afoot.

So I'm conflicted. Overall I'd probably say I'm against them - pursue drunk drivers via other means...park down the road from the bar and watch for people driving out of there like drunkards.

I question how effective they are. I know in PA the police have to post in advance where the checkpoint will be and the date.

I just think you're better off having the cops spread out on the rode where they can see people driving erratically.

I also think that hiding in the parking lot of a Taco Bell is cheating.
 
Wow?

Someone who is drunk has already broken the law. There's no "might" to it. The "might" is in reference to when they'll demonstrate said drunkenness. They might not show that they are drunk until they weave into the other lane of traffic. At which point, it's certainly too late to stop them from engaging in the dangerous behavior.

Then why are we stopping everyone and not just those weaving? The "might" does refer to those who haven't broken the law.
 
Random checkpoints have no place in America. I should be able to live my life without being hassled by the police provided I haven't given them probable cause to stop me.
 
The locations are random but that doesn't violate any constitutionality requirements. Randomness only matters to the extent that they are selecting drivers randomly. So long as every car that passes through the checkpoint is stopped - there is no random search.

The metal detector equivalent is the same. Metal detector locations are random. They are set up whenever and where ever someone feels there's a need. They are not random in that everyone must go through them. Random locations are fine, random people are not.


Detention is also in favor of checkpoints. The Court has frequently weighed the extent of the intrusion and upheld cases where the intrusion is not substantial. Motorists are not obliged to pass through checkpoints and can turn their vehicles around to take alternative routes to their destination. More importantly, the length and depth of the intrusion is minimal compared to the government interest in stopping drunk driving.

I have to disagree with the bolded part. The balancing test has only been applied in cases where the stop is substantially less intrusive than a typical arrest. Otherwise, the general rule of probable cause is required to stop and seize a person. I'd posit that such a stop and seizure is not substantially less intrusive than a typical arrest, but I'd assume you will differ.

However, even conceding that such a stop and seizure is substantially less intrusive, and thus allowing us to use the more lenient 'balancing test', the reasonableness of the seizure must be judged by balancing the gravity of the public concerns served by the seizure, the degree to which the seizure advances the public interest, and the severity of the interference with individual liberty.

I think the government's arguments fall short in every prong.

Also, to your point about the difference between border searches/stops and dui stops.....

Requiring borders stops to be based on reasonable suspicion would be impractical because the flow of traffic tends to be too heavy to allow the particularized study of a given car that would enable it to be identified as a possible carrier of illegal aliens. It's often easy, or at least easier, to tell when someone is driving drunk as opposed to driving while being an illegal alien. This is entirely different when it comes to gathering individualized suspicion to stop suspected drunk drivers. Normal (constitutional) law enforcement measures are more than enough to detect suspected drunken drivers whereas the same cannot be said for illegal immigrants traveling in vehicles.

In other words, I would need to see evidence that there is a similar difficulty in detecting individuals who are driving under the influence of alcohol, because it is not intuitively obvious that such a difficulty exists (as it is in the case of border stops).

Without proof/evidence that law enforcement cannot develop individualized suspicion that a person is driving while impaired by alcohol, the constitutional balance must be struck in favor of protecting the public against even, if it must be conceded, "minimally intrusive" seizures.
 
These threads always bring out the silliest high horse hypocrites.

I'll bet over half of you have drank over the legal limit and driven home.

So if you've ever driven home over the legal limit, even one time in your life, you can never say you're against it ever again without being labeled a hypocrite? Even 10, 20 years later? That seems like a pretty silly position to take.
 
Then why are we stopping everyone and not just those weaving? The "might" does refer to those who haven't broken the law.

The same reason we make everyone run their suitcase through the x-ray machine at the airport. Or walk through the metal detector at the local government building.
 
I have to disagree with the bolded part. The balancing test has only been applied in cases where the stop is substantially less intrusive than a typical arrest. Otherwise, the general rule of probable cause is required to stop and seize a person. I'd posit that such a stop and seizure is not substantially less intrusive than a typical arrest, but I'd assume you will differ.

And a sobriety checkpoint is far less intrusive than pulling over a motorist, making them wait for you to finish running their info, asking them to exit the vehicle. Cuffing and Mirandizing them Then driving then to station, processing them,...

Far less intrusive.

However, even conceding that such a stop and seizure is substantially less intrusive, and thus allowing us to use the more lenient 'balancing test', the reasonableness of the seizure must be judged by balancing the gravity of the public concerns served by the seizure, the degree to which the seizure advances the public interest, and the severity of the interference with individual liberty.

Saying it isn't proving it. They approved border checks with arrest rates of .12%. Drunk driving checkpoints? 1.5% Over 10x more effective.

I think the government's arguments fall short in every prong.

Also, to your point about the difference between border searches/stops and dui stops.....

Requiring borders stops to be based on reasonable suspicion would be impractical because the flow of traffic tends to be too heavy to allow the particularized study of a given car that would enable it to be identified as a possible carrier of illegal aliens. It's often easy, or at least easier, to tell when someone is driving drunk as opposed to driving while being an illegal alien. This is entirely different when it comes to gathering individualized suspicion to stop suspected drunk drivers. Normal (constitutional) law enforcement measures are more than enough to detect suspected drunken drivers whereas the same cannot be said for illegal immigrants traveling in vehicles.

For this to make sense, drunk drivers must demonstrate visible drunkenness at all times behind the wheel. Which defies both the science and the law. A driver can be drunk and the external observer not be aware of his status until something untowards occurs. At which point it is too late to intervene. Moreover, it's unnecessary. The illegal act is being drunk behind the wheel. It is irrelevant whether or not a visually obvious error occurs.

In other words, I would need to see evidence that there is a similar difficulty in detecting individuals who are driving under the influence of alcohol, because it is not intuitively obvious that such a difficulty exists (as it is in the case of border stops).

Read the case. The stats are in there.


Without proof/evidence that law enforcement cannot develop individualized suspicion that a person is driving while impaired by alcohol, the constitutional balance must be struck in favor of protecting the public against even, if it must be conceded, "minimally intrusive" seizures.

Actually they already proved that. You're challenging it. Present the less intrusive measure. Given that the current method is more effective than border searches in identifying law breakers,
 
Saying it isn't proving it. They approved border checks with arrest rates of .12%. Drunk driving checkpoints? 1.5% Over 10x more effective.

2 dui arrests out of 126 suspicionless stops and you're claiming that's a success? Individualized suspicion is enough to serve the general law enforcement needs in this case. The stops/searches aren't effective enough to win the balancing test. Barring some special need, the government needs to prove that it had reasonable suspicion for a minimally intrusive seizure to be considered reasonable (See Terry v Ohio). Your argument seems to rest on the fact that stopping every car might make it easier to prevent drunken driving, but that, in itself, is an insufficient justification for abandoning the requirement of individualized suspicion.

For this to make sense, drunk drivers must demonstrate visible drunkenness at all times behind the wheel. Which defies both the science and the law. A driver can be drunk and the external observer not be aware of his status until something untowards occurs. At which point it is too late to intervene. Moreover, it's unnecessary. The illegal act is being drunk behind the wheel. It is irrelevant whether or not a visually obvious error occurs.

Of course it matters, don't be ridiculous. Driving erratically is more than enough cause for an officer to pull you or I over and investigate for possible DUI.

Read the case. The stats are in there.

I did, and they quite clearly don't support your side of the argument. The Michigan program was designed after a similar program in Maryland; which was presented as evidence in the trial court. Over several years, Maryland operated 125 checkpoints. Out of over 41,000 motorists passing through those checkpoints, only 143 persons (0.3%!!!!) were arrested. Are you telling me that a higher arrest rate could not have been achieved by more conventional means based on reasonable suspicion? Moreover, there were 71,000 such arrests made by Michigan Police without checkpoints in 1984 alone; demonstrating how badly this policy should have failed when subjected to the balancing test.

From the case: "Any relationship between sobriety checkpoints and an actual reduction in highway fatalities is even less substantial than the minimal impact on arrest rates. As the Michigan Court of Appeals pointed out: "Maryland had conducted a study comparing traffic statistics between a county using checkpoints and a control county. The results of the study showed that alcohol-related accidents in the checkpoint county decreased by ten percent, whereas the control county saw an eleven percent decrease; and while fatal accidents in the control county fell from sixteen to three, fatal accidents in the checkpoint county actually doubled from the prior year.""

Sobriety checkpoints are nothing other than an insufficient and inefficient justification for unreasonable, random stops and seizures.
 
2 dui arrests out of 126 suspicionless stops and you're claiming that's a success? Individualized suspicion is enough to serve the general law enforcement needs in this case. The stops/searches aren't effective enough to win the balancing test. Barring some special need, the government needs to prove that it had reasonable suspicion for a minimally intrusive seizure to be considered reasonable (See Terry v Ohio). Your argument seems to rest on the fact that stopping every car might make it easier to prevent drunken driving, but that, in itself, is an insufficient justification for abandoning the requirement of individualized suspicion.



Of course it matters, don't be ridiculous. Driving erratically is more than enough cause for an officer to pull you or I over and investigate for possible DUI.



I did, and they quite clearly don't support your side of the argument. The Michigan program was designed after a similar program in Maryland; which was presented as evidence in the trial court. Over several years, Maryland operated 125 checkpoints. Out of over 41,000 motorists passing through those checkpoints, only 143 persons (0.3%!!!!) were arrested. Are you telling me that a higher arrest rate could not have been achieved by more conventional means based on reasonable suspicion? Moreover, there were 71,000 such arrests made by Michigan Police without checkpoints in 1984 alone; demonstrating how badly this policy should have failed when subjected to the balancing test.

From the case: "Any relationship between sobriety checkpoints and an actual reduction in highway fatalities is even less substantial than the minimal impact on arrest rates. As the Michigan Court of Appeals pointed out: "Maryland had conducted a study comparing traffic statistics between a county using checkpoints and a control county. The results of the study showed that alcohol-related accidents in the checkpoint county decreased by ten percent, whereas the control county saw an eleven percent decrease; and while fatal accidents in the control county fell from sixteen to three, fatal accidents in the checkpoint county actually doubled from the prior year.""

Sobriety checkpoints are nothing other than an insufficient and inefficient justification for unreasonable, random stops and seizures.

And the average time of the stop was 25 seconds. 25 seconds vs. preventing drunk driving. There is a more effective method of preventing drunk driving than a 25 second inquiry?

And you're side stepping the actual crime with all of this. The crime in question is BAC above the stated limit. If I get behind the wheel of my car with an illegal BAC limit and start driving - what is the less intrusive means of determining if my BAC exceeds the limitations? Less intrusive than requiring me to spend 25 seconds of my life talking to a police officer.

Like I said, you can keep claiming there are less intrusive methods but at some point you should present one.
 
And the average time of the stop was 25 seconds. 25 seconds vs. preventing drunk driving. There is a more effective method of preventing drunk driving than a 25 second inquiry?

And you're side stepping the actual crime with all of this. The crime in question is BAC above the stated limit. If I get behind the wheel of my car with an illegal BAC limit and start driving - what is the less intrusive means of determining if my BAC exceeds the limitations? Less intrusive than requiring me to spend 25 seconds of my life talking to a police officer.

Like I said, you can keep claiming there are less intrusive methods but at some point you should present one.

The normal method based on reasonable suspicion. Which is the means by which most intoxicated drivers are apprehended and arrested...


Btw, a somewhat related question I'd like your opinion on....

If a drivers spots a checkpoint a half a mile or so in the distance, legally stops and turns around to avoid it. Does this create reasonable suspicion to pull said driver over? The reason I ask is because Ohio has been setting up fake DUI checkpoints and actually pulling over all of the drivers who attempt to avoid it. I, of course, find this practice to be highly illegal.
 
this is a funny thread. I would like that to add that in addition to being able to drive drunk as long as you can stay in your lane, ts next thread will be on whether or not you should be able to run red lights, drive through stops signs or not indicate when turning. As long as you are doing it safely of course.
 
And the average time of the stop was 25 seconds. 25 seconds vs. preventing drunk driving. There is a more effective method of preventing drunk driving than a 25 second inquiry?

And you're side stepping the actual crime with all of this. The crime in question is BAC above the stated limit. If I get behind the wheel of my car with an illegal BAC limit and start driving - what is the less intrusive means of determining if my BAC exceeds the limitations? Less intrusive than requiring me to spend 25 seconds of my life talking to a police officer.

Like I said, you can keep claiming there are less intrusive methods but at some point you should present one.

You're statements seem to be based on the assumption that stopping drunk driving is more important than protecting our rights to travel freely without being questioned by our government with no reasonable suspicion.

You're right, checkpoints are very effective--that's not the point.

"He who would trade liberty for some temporary security, deserves neither liberty nor security." -Benjamin Franklin
 
You're statements seem to be based on the assumption that stopping drunk driving is more important than protecting our rights to travel freely without being questioned by our government with no reasonable suspicion.

You're right, checkpoints are very effective--that's not the point.

"He who would trade liberty for some temporary security, deserves neither liberty nor security." -Benjamin Franklin

Once again, driving a motor vehicle is not a right, it is a privilege.
If you want to freely travel then walk.
If you think you should somehow be exempt from drunk driving laws and random check stops you should have your licence revoked.
This isnt the man holding you down, this is preventing immature adults from harming themselves or more importantly others.

I am gob smacked at the fact this rediculous thread has gone on. If your against dui check stops and feel drunk driving isnt a big deal, i hope some day you get to look at your dead child in the hospital after a drunk driver thought he could handle his liquor.
 
So if you've ever driven home over the legal limit, even one time in your life, you can never say you're against it ever again without being labeled a hypocrite? Even 10, 20 years later? That seems like a pretty silly position to take.

Exactly. It's called growing up and becoming more mature. When I was 17 I drove over the limit several times because I was young and stupid. At 28 I wouldn't dream of it.
 
this is a funny thread. I would like that to add that in addition to being able to drive drunk as long as you can stay in your lane, ts next thread will be on whether or not you should be able to run red lights, drive through stops signs or not indicate when turning. As long as you are doing it safely of course.

This. I've heard people say that it's ok to blow red lights at 3am because no one was coming anyway. That's not the principle. The fact is the laws are there for a reason and you aren't "taking it from the man" by obeying them you are being an adult.
 
I don't think that arrests are necessarily the way to measure the success of these dui checkpoints. I think their greater success would be as a deterrent, which there's really no way to measure how many people decided to find other arrangements to get home because they were worried about checkpoints out that night. I don't know what it's like where you guys live, but in Toronto in December people get shook to drink and drive because RIDE program is all over the streets. Some people still do of course, but a lot more people than usual make those decisions, those arrangements to get home safely that they should be doing all year long. It's unfortunate that it's fear of the legal consequences rather than fear of causing a collision on the road that makes people smarten up, but it is what it is I guess and the less intoxicated people on the roads, the better. Also people know not to drink and drive on the way up to the cottage on the long weekends because popo are all over the highways then. But the rest of the year RIDE isn't so frequent, just see it randomly.
 
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