Ww2 mvp

[KnightTemplar]

Churchill. Should Stalin be recognize for carelessly throwing walls of bodies at the opposing side? That's not exact;y an MVP strategy. Luckily it worked.

This. Stalin infamously said, "In my Army, it takes more courage to retreat than attack".

No one can doubt the sheer toughness or ruthlessness of the Red Army, but they were the Brock Lesnar of WWII. They relied on their massive size and strength to soak up punishment and overwhelm smaller, weaker opponents. This worked against the Germans eventually, partly because the Soviets were being supplied by America, because the Nazis were also fighting on other fronts and because Hitler kept interfering with his Field Marshal's decisions. For example demanding that Stalingrad, which had little strategic value, be taken. Which tied down huge amounts of men and equipment.

 

[ElKarlo]

This. Stalin infamously said, "In my Army, it takes more courage to retreat than attack".

No one can doubt the sheer toughness or ruthlessness of the Red Army, but they were the Brock Lesnar of WWII. They relied on their massive size and strength to soak up punishment and overwhelm smaller, weaker opponents. This worked against the Germans eventually, partly because the Soviets were being supplied by America, because the Nazis were also fighting on other fronts and because Hitler kept interfering with his Field Marshal's decisions. For example demanding that Stalingrad, which had little strategic value, be taken. Which tied down huge amounts of men and equipment.

Oh yeah, they took massive losses. I don't think we can overstate that. I think only Serbia in WWI took proportionally similar losses in life.

Also without lend lease, the Soviet war machine would have crashed. As they could not replace their trucks and trains plus other what not, AND make war materials and ammo at the same time.

 

[KnightTemplar]

Oh yeah, they took massive losses. I don't think we can overstate that. I think only Serbia in WWI took proportionally similar losses in life.

Also without lend lease, the Soviet war machine would have crashed. As they could not replace their trucks and trains plus other what not, AND make war materials and ammo at the same time.

Exactly. The War was won by all three of the major Allies. If Britain had capitulated after Dunkirk, the Nazis would have been able to free huge numbers of troops from North Africa and Italy. And without the North Atlantic Convoys, the Lend Lease would not have reached the Soviets. If the Russians had not been able to sustain massive losses and keep fighting, the Nazis would have probably been able to repel the D Day Landings. And without American soldiers, and much more importantly, the limitless manufacturing capabilities of American Industry, the UK and Russia would not have been able to defeat the Nazis.

The UK, the Soviet Union and America each share the glory.

 

[Xuh]

Stalin because he knew it was coming before Hitler was even in power and rapidly, brutally industrialised the SU into becoming not just a power but a superpower. Literally anybody else in his position and the SU would have been steamrolled, there would have been no-one to 'lend lease' to, the UK's only sane option would have been to accept peace with Nazi-controlled Europe & the US would have never entered the European theatre.

We are 50 to 100 years behind the advanced countries of the West. We must make up this gap in 10 years. Either we do this or they crush us. ~ Stalin, 1931

 

[beefcake89]

MVP : Russian Soldier and civilians
Not even close.

 

[Rusk]

Georgy Zhukov

Seriously? Imo one of the worst general in WW2, he was just throwing lives away.

 

[Rusk]

This. Stalin infamously said, "In my Army, it takes more courage to retreat than attack".

No one can doubt the sheer toughness or ruthlessness of the Red Army, but they were the Brock Lesnar of WWII. They relied on their massive size and strength to soak up punishment and overwhelm smaller, weaker opponents. This worked against the Germans eventually, partly because the Soviets were being supplied by America, because the Nazis were also fighting on other fronts and because Hitler kept interfering with his Field Marshal's decisions. For example demanding that Stalingrad, which had little strategic value, be taken. Which tied down huge amounts of men and equipment.

oh man, it seems you are really anti russian or something... :wink:

Unlike Brock Lesnar the soviets could take a punch, best heart and chin in WW2.

As for the rest, yes, Germans did make some mistakes in WW2. Who didn't? But look at the Soviet side, they did ALMOST EVERYTHING WRONG, and actually much more mistakes than the german side, even before the war. But i guess it gets overlooked because the Soviet didn't lose the war. Anyway it is normal for Generals on the losing side to come up with "Brazilian" excuses after the war, take all that shit with a grain of salt.

 

[JonnyRingo84]

Interesting documentary, although it should be pointed out that SOE, aka the Baker Street Irregulars, did much of their training in Scotland. And the SOE Field Teams were code-named Jedburgh, after the Scottish town that was a center for the infamous Border Reivers.

did not know that.

LOL, just the total crap I would expect to hear on a western MMA forum talking politics.

Possibly as high as 93% of casualties for the Germans took place on the Eastern Front yet the WW2 MVP will come from the West.

Go figure. LOL.

i had considered stalin. look at his own casualties, though. he got his ass kicked and just happened to have enough men to counter. im open to being corrected.

 

[JonnyRingo84]

No one wants to be the first to say anything positive about Hitler, but let's point out the facts:

Germany was ruined after World War 1.

Hitler didn't come from a rich family. He was an average person. He served in the infantry during WW1.

An average person, took a ruined country... and nearly conquered the world. Certainly almost conquered Europe. Maybe if he had played his cards a little better towards the end, much of western Europe would be speaking German.

If it's a contest of "who did the most with the least", Hitler is pretty clearly in contention.

nothing wrong with considering hitler. even a broken watch is right twice a day. he was a mass murdering crazy evil bastard but he had his skills.

should we really be impressed with what he did in the german economy though? all he really did was tell the league of nations that he wasnt paying reparations anymore. put germans to work building a military. correct me if im wrong there. i could have done that, though.

early on in the war he was impressive. but he idolized napoleon, and then made the same damn mistake in russia that he had. major F up.

This exactly, i wanted to say this but afraid of the shitstor, that will come

 

[JonnyRingo84]

I thanked churhchill for developing the enigma machinewith his bare hands and truman for spending countless hours in developing the atom bomb in his garage.

Yes, lets all praise the mascots we love to cheer for.

i would never overlook alan turing and the like. these are the men that put those wheels in motion, though.

 

[JonnyRingo84]

Churchill broke the Nazi code? I could swear it was genius, mathematicians...

i didnt mean to suggest that churchill himself did it. i think most understood that.

 

[Rusk]

i had considered stalin. look at his own casualties, though. he got his ass kicked and just happened to have enough men to counter. im open to being corrected.

Soviet Union won every major battle on eastern front, and ended up in Berlin, that is not definition of "got his ass kicked".

But regardless Stalin sucked as leader imo. Soviet victory is not his.

 

[KnightTemplar]

oh man, it seems you are really anti russian or something... :wink:

Unlike Brock Lesnar the soviets could take a punch, best heart and chin in WW2.

As for the rest, yes, Germans did make some mistakes in WW2. Who didn't? But look at the Soviet side, they did ALMOST EVERYTHING WRONG, and actually much more mistakes than the german side, even before the war. But i guess it gets overlooked because the Soviet didn't lose the war. Anyway it is normal for Generals on the losing side to come up with "Brazilian" excuses after the war, take all that shit with a grain of salt.

Not anti-Russian but not a Stalin nut-hugger either. Stalin's purges almost destroyed the Red Army, which is one of the reasons they got prison raped by the Finns during the Winter War(the other reason being the Finns are arguably the best cold weather soldiers in the world).

Stalin went on to kill more Russians than Hitler managed to. Russian soldiers were incredibly tough but poorly trained and often poorly commanded as well. If the UK had surrendered and America had not been drawn into the War, the only language we'd hear in Russia today would be German. Because Hitler's plans for the Russian's were exactly the same as those for the Jews, Poles, Gypsies etc.

 

[JonnyRingo84]

Soviet Union won every major battle on eastern front, and ended up in Berlin, that is not definition of "got his ass kicked".

But regardless Stalin sucked as leader imo. Soviet victory is not his.

from what i understand about the eastern front, stalin basically just threw waves of people at the nazis. he also used napoleon's scorched earth tactic, which was pretty cool, but nothing most people couldnt have done.

correct me if im wrong. im certainly no expert on the eastern front.

 

[Denter]

LOL, just the total crap I would expect to hear on a western MMA forum talking politics.

Possibly as high as 93% of casualties for the Germans took place on the Eastern Front yet the WW2 MVP will come from the West.

Go figure. LOL.

There would be no Eastern Front without Lend Lease.

Roosevelt is the only mvp choice imo.

 

[Denter]

from what i understand about the eastern front, stalin basically just threw waves of people at the nazis. he also used napoleon's scorched earth tactic, which was pretty cool, but nothing most people couldnt have done.

correct me if im wrong. im certainly no expert on the eastern front.

Alot of that was german generals trying to make themselves look better in their books. The Soviets learned how to fight and did it well eventually.

 

[Rusk]

from what i understand about the eastern front, stalin basically just threw waves of people at the nazis. he also used napoleon's scorched earth tactic, which was pretty cool, but nothing most people couldnt have done.

correct me if im wrong. im certainly no expert on the eastern front.

Well like i said Soviets achievements are not Stalins, he was a bad leader. I cant correct you, because you are right. But Stalin is not SU, when it comes to winning war etc, but he is SU when it comes to all the bad stuff, because he was an incompetent psychopath... hope it makes sense.

PS: am not eastern front expert either

Not anti-Russian but not a Stalin nut-hugger either. Stalin's purges almost destroyed the Red Army, which is one of the reasons they got prison raped by the Finns during the Winter War(the other reason being the Finns are arguably the best cold weather soldiers in the world).

Stalin went on to kill more Russians than Hitler managed to. Russian soldiers were incredibly tough but poorly trained and often poorly commanded as well. If the UK had surrendered and America had not been drawn into the War, the only language we'd hear in Russia today would be German. Because Hitler's plans for the Russian's were exactly the same as those for the Jews, Poles, Gypsies etc.

I actually have to apologize for saying you are anti-russian, that was idiotic of me, i just realized that.

And i totally agree with you on Stalin, but i disagree with you on everything else. I commented on your post in another thread where i made counter-arguments on things that you have written on your posts in general, i would rather not type them again. :icon_chee

 

[GhostZ06]

 

[lapollarecords]

Churchill didn't stop shit. he was hiding in his bunker while the pilots and sailers did all the fighting

 

[JonnyRingo84]

Churchill didn't stop shit. he was hiding in his bunker while the pilots and sailers did all the fighting

that isnt what this thread is about. everyone in here realizes that these old, and often crippled, men didnt actually fight. they didnt crack codes themselves. they coordinated. they prioritized. made gigantic decisions. organized resources in one place, rather than others. eg put alan turing to work cracking codes, instead of on something else.

the same way that coach K doesnt actually play for the duke basketball team. so he doesnt deserve shit for credit right? no. where would the duke players be without his recruiting and direction? not in the ncaa tournament probably.

if you want a thread about individual mvp's, or about who had the best spy service, the best soldiers....make it. this one is about mv leaders.