Social WR Lounge v206: I generally know what I’m talking about when it comes to science and nature

[LazaRRus]

Whitaker. Duran had more heart.

I don't know about that. I love Manos de Piedra but SRL made him quit.

 

[AgonyandIrony]

What are they protesting? The Oregon results weren't even close

Lockdowns./Covid stuff. Check r/parlerwatch and r/publicfreakout for more deets.

 

[Deorum]

Pernell Whitaker was more skilled

Whitaker. Duran had more heart.

I think it's a lot closer and more debatable than picking the slick black guy, who flouted technique in ways nobody other than peak Roy Jones Jr. could dream of getting away with. I'm actually convinced Duran was one of the greatest defensive fighters in the history of boxing himself. I dunno about heart though Dip, a washed up Whitaker went the distance with prime Tito Trinidad despite a broken jaw from the sixth round on. I also count the De La Hoya fight a couple years prior as a win.

 

[Sycho Sid]

I'm still trying to beat A Link to The Past.... and that's because I just gave up on the original....

I think the only video game I ever finished was Turtles in Time...because I got the Game Genie which allowed for unlimited lives. Unless I just dreamt that?

Both of those games are great.

 

[Social Distance Warrior]

@Social Distance Warrior ('n @nac386 lol, who the fuck is boxing first on here?), IYO who was more skilled: Roberto Duran or Pernell Whitaker? I can't decide between them.

Whitaker's footwork, upper body contortion and punching angles could all be incredibly unothodox. At the same time, he navigated the ring as fluidly as anyone, possessed arguably the greatest jab in the history of the lightweight division and could throw pretty much every punch in the book.

Whereas someone like JCC closed distance and cut the ring by more traditional methods of mirroring his opponents with side steps, Duran did it predominantly with explosive forward advances, an array of feints and right hand leads; yet in the pocket and fighting at close quarters his offensive variation, ability to slip, roll and counter, be in perfection position to get off and land devastating shots is second to none.

Gotta go with Whitaker myself.

One of the best defensive fighters I've ever seen...a man who truly understood the science of the sport..

@Seano , what are your thoughts?

 

[Yehudim]

Get that ass banned.

nah, it’s Low Tier God

watch until the end

LTG is based

 

[nac386]

Pernell Whitaker was more skilled

Its hard to make judgement calls about how skilled fighters are when being compared to fighters who have an entirely different style. I don’t even try to do it. But I think there tends to be a bias towards certain styles when talking about skill level. For example, a guy like Whitaker will often be called more skilled than a guy like Duran without much consideration. That may he true, you could certainly make a good argument for it at least. But it takes a tremendous amount of skill to fight how Duran fought, especially moving from 135 all the way up to 160 (and beyond).

Sometimes aggressive fighters get mischaracterized as being less skilled, and defensive fighters get mischaracterized as having less heart. I don’t believe either one of those statements to be true. An aggressive fighter with limited skill will get their face mangled repeatedly (see Ruslan Provodnikov, Brandon Rios, etc). Duran was a technician, his machismo just overshadowed it sometimes.

And sometimes defensive fighters’ tendencies overshadow their heart, but it doesn’t mean it’s lacking. For example, I’ve heard people say Mayweather lacks heart, which is just ridiculous. He has shown lots of heart and a great chin. He’s also strong as shit and very tough. His style just doesn’t happen to highlight those traits.

 

[AnGrYcRoW]

I think it's a lot closer and more debatable than picking the slick black guy, who flouted technique in ways nobody other than peak Roy Jones Jr. could dream of getting away with. I'm actually convinced Duran was one of the greatest defensive fighters in the history of boxing himself. I dunno about heart though Dip, a washed up Whitaker went the distance with prime Tito Trinidad despite a broken jaw from the sixth round on. I also count the De La Hoya fight a couple years prior as a win.

Whittaker clearly won the fight with Delahoya , that was awful

Had to drive an hour to find a bar showing that one lol

 

[Deorum]

Post-147 Dooran is depressing: wildly diminished attributes, ability, will to fight, and even worse, lesser motivated training habits than before when he had the surprisingly fast hands, cat-like reflexes, greater agility and fluidity in his defensive upperbody movement, fresher wheels, higher level of stamina, a more consistent work rate and if not more power relative to the divisions then certainly a higher capacity to get his shots off and find the target. The multitude of angles Duran was able to attack, slip, roll, duck and counter effectively from just isn't even comparable. Not even when watching him take apart Cuevas and Moore.

And yet he went in with the highly capable, highly conditioned ambidextrous Top 5 ATG Middleweight who was right in the thick of a seven-year, 12-defense reign at the top and basically operating right near the height of his powers. What happens? He doesn't just last the distance with him - something every other Hagler title challenger aside from Ray Leonard failed to do - he fights competitively, he wins rounds, and at times makes him look tentative, ordinary, even puzzled by not fighting in the manner that on paper should've afforded a natural counterpuncher like Hagler the chance to look dominant and impressive in what up to that point was considered the biggest fight of his career.

 

[Seano]

Gotta go with Whitaker myself.

One of the best defensive fighters I've ever seen...a man who truly understood the science of the sport..

@Seano , what are your thoughts?

Whitaker boxes circles around Duran, frustrates him all night. More competitive at 135.

 

[LazaRRus]

I think it's a lot closer and more debatable than picking the slick black guy, who flouted technique in ways nobody other than peak Roy Jones Jr. could dream of getting away with. I'm actually convinced Duran was one of the greatest defensive fighters in the history of boxing himself. I dunno about heart though Dip, a washed up Whitaker went the distance with prime Tito Trinidad despite a broken jaw from the sixth round on. I also count the De La Hoya fight a couple years prior as a win.

I wasn't picking the "slick black guy" . If you asked me who was the better defensive fighter Whitaker or Willie Pep I would say probably say Pep (although it's close). I honestly think in shape James Toney was a better defensive fighter than Duran. We didn't get to see him in his prime but if you want to see another elite defensive fighter Rigondeaux deserves a mention. I just don't rate Durann's defensive that highly despite having him in my top ten fighters of all time. Boxing opinions are so subjective though.

 

[Deorum]

We didn't get to see him in his prime but if you want to see another elite defensive fighter Rigondeaux deserves a mention. I just don't rate Durann's defensive that highly despite having him in my top ten fighters of all time. Boxing opinions are so subjective though.

Rigo was probably my favorite fighter up until the Lomachenko fight and I always felt like he had a bullshit rep against him considering he either stopped, dropped and/or beat the brakes off just about anyone he'd fought to that point: breaking jaws, crushing eye sockets, rearranging faces. A low output tends to skew the perception, because the shots he does throw are blistering and with the worst intentions. He also rarely ever resorts to clinching as a defensive technique, it's kept incredibly clean. The only legitimately poor showing was against Drian Francisco on the Canelo/Cotto undercard and he still won every god damn round.

 

[LazaRRus]

Its hard to make judgement calls about how skilled fighters are when being compared to fighters who have an entirely different style. I don’t even try to do it. But I think there tends to be a bias towards certain styles when talking about skill level. For example, a guy like Whitaker will often be called more skilled than a guy like Duran without much consideration. That may he true, you could certainly make a good argument for it at least. But it takes a tremendous amount of skill to fight how Duran fought, especially moving from 135 all the way up to 160 (and beyond).

Sometimes aggressive fighters get mischaracterized as being less skilled, and defensive fighters get mischaracterized as having less heart. I don’t believe either one of those statements to be true. An aggressive fighter with limited skill will get their face mangled repeatedly (see Ruslan Provodnikov, Brandon Rios, etc). Duran was a technician, his machismo just overshadowed it sometimes.

And sometimes defensive fighters’ tendencies overshadow their heart, but it doesn’t mean it’s lacking. For example, I’ve heard people say Mayweather lacks heart, which is just ridiculous. He has shown lots of heart and a great chin. He’s also strong as shit and very tough. His style just doesn’t happen to highlight those traits.

Completely agree. It's so tough to rate guys because everyone is going to see things differently. It's also what makes the sport so great. I rank Duran decently ahead of Sweet Pea in terms of legacy and overall p4p than Whitaker and certainly respect his talent but in terms of natural skill it's Whitaker all day for me.

Since Floyd is in the conversation I would say that he is more skilled as well. People who say he has no heart don't know boxing or saw him early in his career. As you know Floyd has brittle hands. He would always have bee a more defensive fighter but look no further than his master class against against Chico Corrales. Floyd just doesn't like to be hit and he mastered his craft.

 

[LazaRRus]

Whittaker clearly won the fight with Delahoya , that was awful

Had to drive an hour to find a bar showing that one lol

Wouldn't say clearly. I scored it for him but if I remember correctly it was only by a point. I haven't watched it in a long time

 

[LazaRRus]

Rigo was probably my favorite fighter up until the Lomachenko fight and I always felt like he had a bullshit rep against him considering he either stopped, dropped and/or beat the brakes off just about anyone he'd fought to that point: breaking jaws, crushing eye sockets, rearranging faces. A low output tends to skew the perception, because the shots he does throw are blistering and with the worst intentions. He also rarely ever resorts to clinching as a defensive technique, it's kept incredibly clean. The only legitimately poor showing was against Drian Francisco on the Canelo/Cotto undercard and he still won every god damn round.

Well said. Rigo was a masterful technician. He placed almost every punch perfectly even when he wasn't looking to land he was setting up a three to 4 punches ahead of it. One of the most cerebral fighters you'll see. He unfortunately was overshadowed a lot by his flashy Cuban counterpart in Yuri but as we know that's what a lot of fans like to see.

 

[Deorum]

Well said. Rigo was a masterful technician. He placed almost every punch perfectly even when he wasn't looking to land he was setting up a three to 4 punches ahead of it. One of the most cerebral fighters you'll see. He unfortunately was overshadowed a lot by his flashy Cuban counterpart in Yuri but as we know that's what a lot of fans like to see.

My favorite performance of the decade.



Those shots are crispy as all hell, and with surreal razor sharp footwork. His pivots give me raging boxing boners, he is/was fucking awesome.

 

[LazaRRus]

My favorite performance of the decade.



Those shots are crispy as all hell, and with surreal razor sharp footwork. His pivots give me raging boxing boners, he is/was fucking awesome.

I won a lot of money on that fight. Donaire was always there to be hit but he was the "big puncher" and everyone seemed to think that he was going to back up and push Rigo around the ring. Nope

 

[TheGreatA]

@Social Distance Warrior ('n @nac386 lol, who the fuck is boxing first on here?), IYO who was more skilled: Roberto Duran or Pernell Whitaker? I can't decide between them.

Whitaker's footwork, upper body contortion and punching angles could all be incredibly unothodox. At the same time, he navigated the ring as fluidly as anyone, possessed arguably the greatest jab in the history of the lightweight division and could throw pretty much every punch in the book.

Whereas someone like JCC closed distance and cut the ring by more traditional methods of mirroring his opponents with side steps, Duran did it predominantly with explosive forward advances, an array of feints and right hand leads; yet in the pocket and fighting at close quarters his offensive variation, ability to slip, roll and counter, be in perfection position to get off and land devastating shots is second to none.

It's harder to find separation than one might think at face-value. It took an enormous amount of skill, and natural talent, for both guys to accomplish what they did, at the range of weight that they fought at (with most of their major fights basically taking place well above their natural weight class).

I do think that two abilities greatly enhanced Duran's career, namely his incredible chin, as well as his power that held up, even up to 160 pounds. He wouldn't have survived without them. On the other hand you could also say that about Whitaker's reflexes, and his durability too, which gets underrated. Both had a natural instinct for getting out of the way of anything serious, and not being budged by anything less than that.

Whitaker's offense usually took a back-seat to his defense. I never saw him as the most precise counter-puncher, or even a compact puncher overall (outside of the jab). He was not Floyd Mayweather. He threw a lot of volume at awkward angles, which worked for him, but may not have worked for a whole lot of others, without his ability to get away with being seemingly off-balance while throwing/avoiding punches. The southpaw stance also enhanced his "awkwardness" in the eyes of others. Whereas Duran, certainly, had mastered the aspect of offense, and most of what he threw was short, compact and had very little wind-up or "tells" that might tip the other guy off to what's coming, except when he showed up slow and listless during the latter part of his career.

Nonetheless, when we did see Whitaker in there against opponents that he could actually hurt and even get out of there, he was capable of stepping up his game and being the aggressor, although he was not quite as proficient at it, as he was at delivering a master-class on the back-foot. When he caught up to Hurtado, he was pretty much just brawling and throwing loaded-up powershots at will. He was no Duran as the aggressor, but it's arguable that the only reason this part of his game wasn't as developed, is because it made no sense for him to develop it further. He wasn't a puncher, and he was never going to stop top-end welterweights like Chavez or De La Hoya, or really even discourage them with his power. Whereas Duran always had a chance to drop and rock even a huge middleweight like Barkley.

I'd probably pick Whitaker here because I don't think that Duran could have done it if his power had been equal to that of Whitaker. Might be a bit of a cop-out answer, but I really think Duran's ability to hurt people on a consistent basis played into a lot of what he was able to do. Even Hagler was kept at bay by his counter right-hand. However, there are some aspects of the game where Duran was undoubtedly more skilled than Whitaker was, it's just that overall I'd give the nod to Whitaker, who had to constantly figure out fresh ways to remain an elite-level threat without possessing elite-level power.

I don't know about that. I love Manos de Piedra but SRL made him quit.

Never saw that so much as an issue with his "heart" as much as his head.

Apart from that fight, Duran had a legendary chin (that held up from featherweight to middleweight) and took much bigger beatings without quitting. Had Leonard put a beating on him, instead of having to be chased all night, Duran would have probably hung in there all the way. But on that particular night, he just wasn't fixing to chase after the bigger man, which is a bit weird, because otherwise he took his losses well. I'd say that Benitez did a much more clear-cut master-class on Duran than Leonard, but Duran stayed there all night. The crazy thing is that Duran wasn't even really behind in the cards at the time he quit against Leonard.

This was a one-off incident in a career consisting of 119 fights, the way I see it.

 

[tonni]

OK. I mean, we see worse in basically every thread in the WR, but there are definitely real flaws there.

Just check any thread about a black person dying. Open racism is tolerated by the community and oftentimes the mods.

 

[Social Distance Warrior]

I won a lot of money on that fight. Donaire was always there to be hit but he was the "big puncher" and everyone seemed to think that he was going to back up and push Rigo around the ring. Nope

What's your next big wager?