Opinion Would George Floyd be alive today, if Derek Chauvin didn't pin his knee to his neck?

[Project 2501]

Dude was doped on both meth and fentanyl and was about to hit the road. His end was inevitable.

 

[hillelslovak87]

Dude was doped on both meth and fentanyl and was about to hit the road. His end was inevitable.

Our ends are all inevitable. He could've died an hour later in the natural course of events. Still doesn't make a cop killing him without care any better.

 

[Tairy Hesticles]

Chauvins own police colleagues testified that he did not use the technique appropriately.

I believe the technique is not approved actually.

https://www.npr.org/sections/trial-...hauvin-neck-restraint-thats-not-what-we-train

Inspector Katie Blackwell, who commands the Minneapolis Police Department's 5th Precinct and used to run the department's police training, methodically told the court on Monday that former officer Derek Chauvin went against authorized training when he used his knee on George Floyd's neck to pin him to the ground.

After describing the training that Chauvin, whom she said she has known for 20 years, has received throughout his career, Blackwell said his technique — kneeling on Floyd's neck while the Black man lay on his stomach — was not a maneuver the training operation taught.

"Is this a trained technique ... by the Minneapolis Police Department when you were overseeing the training?" prosecutor Steven Schleicher asked.

"It is not," Blackwell responded

"Why not?" Schleicher probed.

"Per policy, a neck restraint is compressing one or both sides of the neck, using an arm or a leg. But what we train is using one arm or two arms to do a neck restraint," she said.

"And how does this differ?"

"I don't know what kind of improvised position that is. So that's not what we train," Blackwell said.

I guess I wasn't following this as closely as I thought I had. Thanks for the info, I wasn't aware of the statement from Katie Blackwell. I guess if everyone in his department is testifying that this was never trained, then my point is moot.

 

[thehighking]

You asked for the evidence and I gave it to you. I'm already aware that it's not a smoking gun. Which is why I don't focus on Chauvin being "racist", I focus on his misconduct.

Not sure why the Latino owner of a primarily Latino nightclub would have a bias that would cause her to believe that Chauvin was more aggressive against blacks than Latinos if that wasn't the case. If anything, she would have an unconscious bias in the other direction given her background. What's the most logical explanation to you? That this woman saw clear patterns of increased aggression, which she saw as unnecessary, when the club had black clientele, or that somehow she made it all up for no apparent reason? Generally I'm a believer in Occam's razor and her testimony fits that much more than your theory.

I'm not sure why you're so sure that there absolutely was no racist or racial motive. It's not a slam dunk by any means, but the preponderance of the evidence suggests at the very least that Chauvin engaged in excessive and unnecessary aggression towards black subjects he encountered as both a LEO and a security guard. He also had an unusually high amount of excessive force complaints against him, 18 in total, two of which he was reprimanded for.

Cops often get away with excessive force without an official complaint, and when there is one, they tend not to get punished for them. Looking at his record and testimony against him, it appears that he was a problem officer who should have been fired and barred from the profession years ago and we wouldn't be in this mess, but unfortunately police culture protects problem officers and the good cops basically have to kowtow to the bad ones, especially if outranked by them.

I doubt that Chauvin's fellow officers on the scene would have engaged in such behavior on their own accord, but he was the senior and highest ranking officer on the scene and they followed his lead. They were scared to speak out and disobey and with good reason considering what tends to happen to the officers who do so. Unfortunately for them, they're now facing criminal charges of their own as a result. But I believe this sets a good precedent for the system overall. I see signs of reform finally coming and I think ultimately it will be a good thing.

Ya I appreciate it, I hadn't heard that statement before. And I'm not saying there wasn't a racist motive, but personally I think it's unlikely. I don't think there's enough evidence to label Chauvin as a racist just from that statement. If he was racist there probably would have been more people coming out with clearer evidence that he had racist views. So I don't think that approach will work for the prosecutor. The excessive force complaints, especially the two he was reprimanded for are definitely be something to taken into consideration. Then again there's still the issue of whether the knee is actually what caused Floyd's death and not the overdose. I think the murder charges may be out the window but a manslaughter charge is very possible.

 

[SmilinDesperado]

There is a serious inability in the American people to focus on the primary questions in these type of issues.

 

[cincymma79]

DMX OD'd a couple days ago suffered a heart attack as a result and was oxygen deprived for 30 minutes while Paramedics attempted to resuscitate him.

First he smoked a rock, then he had to roll.

Anyway, floyd and chauvin suck. We're flushingtwo turds here

 

[badascan]

He died of his own actions so there's a chance he would have died on the way to jail or maybe they could have gotten him help if he was acting civil... He was a scumbag, maybe he was turning his life around but he certainly seemed to be a net negative on society while he was around...

 

[thehighking]

He was freaking out in the police car and wanted out and said he couldn't breathe. He was dying IMO. He didn't need a knee. He needed breathing assistance or CPR once he went limp. Dude overdosed on the regular. Asshole cop should have been trying to save him.

That's where I believe a manslaughter charge could be likely. That is manslaughter right? If a cop doesn't give necessary medical attention to someone in their care and they die because of it?

 

[GutterSniper]

That's where I believe a manslaughter charge could be likely. That is manslaughter right? If a cop doesn't give necessary medical attention to someone in their care and they die because of it?

This is a really good point. If you have been placed in custody, responsibility for your well-being should fall on the police. So rough rides, etc, and damages from such should be accountable. If the police create the situation, they should be liable. Part and parcel of an arrest or house warrant should be responsibility for harm.

That being said, if your actions prior to the arrest created the potential for harm, I can’t find the police conduct to be criminally liable. Did George give them a note or tell them he needed to go to the hospital? From my understanding he created most of the situation himself. Cooperate with the police, you may beat the rap but you aren’t going to beat the ride.

For the record, cooperate does not mean talk to the police, because they are looking to send you to prison and talking never helps you. It means comply with their lawful orders.

 

[kenetics]

I'm just curious what do you guys think.

It seems to me its possible he still would have died considering he was high on drugs and had some underlying health issues or maybe the handling of the arrest of George Floyd contributed to his death.

I'm sure George Floyd was in high stress because of the cops presence and their actions and that would certainly strain his heart in some way.

All of it could have contributed to his death.

Tasteless thread. You know what you're doing.

 

[Hollywood Jack]

Ya I appreciate it, I hadn't heard that statement before. And I'm not saying there wasn't a racist motive, but personally I think it's unlikely. I don't think there's enough evidence to label Chauvin as a racist just from that statement. If he was racist there probably would have been more people coming out with clearer evidence that he had racist views. So I don't think that approach will work for the prosecutor. The excessive force complaints, especially the two he was reprimanded for are definitely be something to taken into consideration. Then again there's still the issue of whether the knee is actually what caused Floyd's death and not the overdose. I think the murder charges may be out the window but a manslaughter charge is very possible.

From what I've seen of the trial, the prosecutor hasn't tried to make that case, and with good reason. That's more of a media narrative and an activist narrative. I don't necessarily think it's a false one, but there is a relative lack of evidence to support it, so journalists should exercise more caution in spreading it or speculating about it. Unfortunately, today's media thrives on sensationalism and journalism is no longer allowed to be a loss leader, it's all about maximizing profits by creating controversy and also there seems to be a plan among elites to divide us by identity so that we don't unite in a class struggle.

 

[Hollywood Jack]

It's a gray area, but Minneapolis hasn't criminally charged any officers that have used knee to neck and injured/killed someone. This same thing just happened in 2018 and it was settled out of court in a civil suit. It seems that the technique is frowned upon, and not even taught anymore, but was still technically acceptable for use at the time. Minneapolis has since passed a law banning choke holds, including knee to neck.

"The Minneapolis Policy and Procedure manual describes two types of neck restraint police officers can deploy: Conscious neck restraint (putting light pressure on the subject's neck with an arm or leg without cutting off their airway) and unconscious neck restraint (applying enough pressure on a subject to make them lose consciousness without killing them)."

Of course Chauvin actually killed the man, but it's debatable if he or the meth/fentnyl combo was responsible. If the manual says that police officers are authorized to restrain and choke someone unconscious (which had been used at least 44 times since 2018 - 277 neck restraints total), I think you have to blame the PD for their flawed policy.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/en.as.com/en/2020/06/06/other_sports/1591442963_890018.amp.html

He used the technique improperly and excessively. Police are allowed to use their fists and batons too, but if they beat someone to death with them, they can and should be held criminally accountable. Police are trained about the dangers of leaving suspects in the prone position while handcuffed. They're trained about the danger of leaving the knee on neck for excessive periods of time. Chauvin purposely did both things for an excessive amount of time. Per his fellow officers' testimony, Chauvin would have known better.

 

[panamaican]

When theres murder charges, it matters a lot. The question isnt just whether or not he acted inappropriately, but whether his actions directly contributed to Floyds death.

No, it doesn't matter at all. That's such an idiotic statement that I know you're just typing it out of a kneejerk desire to be contrarian.

Did the Defendant commit murder? Well, it depends on if the dead guy would have lived another 2 years. That's clown shit. Either the actions in the moment killed a man in the moment or they didn't. Basing the answer on what might have happened some other time in some other place is so idiotic that I'm actually disappointed in myself for typing this many words in my response.

 

[thehighking]

From what I've seen of the trial, the prosecutor hasn't tried to make that case, and with good reason. That's more of a media narrative and an activist narrative. I don't necessarily think it's a false one, but there is a relative lack of evidence to support it, so journalists should exercise more caution in spreading it or speculating about it. Unfortunately, today's media thrives on sensationalism and journalism is no longer allowed to be a loss leader, it's all about maximizing profits by creating controversy and also there seems to be a plan among elites to divide us by identity so that we don't unite in a class struggle.

Absolutely, couldn't agree more.

 

[Krixes]

We'll never know. What Chauvin did, in the manner he did it, was just wrong though.

 

[hillelslovak87]

That's where I believe a manslaughter charge could be likely. That is manslaughter right? If a cop doesn't give necessary medical attention to someone in their care and they die because of it?

He didn't just neglect to offer assistance. He made it way, way worse. That doesn't sound like manslaughter to me, especially since he wasn't even following protocol for the 9 minutes people were screaming at him to stop. Sounds deliberate.

 

[Protectandserve]

Based on the toxicology reports I think he would have likely OD'd but probably would have survived if his buddies took him to an ER.

But who knows

 

[ocfightfan]

He would have died of a drug overdose in any case, so no.

 

[Bob Gray]

No, it doesn't matter at all. That's such an idiotic statement that I know you're just typing it out of a kneejerk desire to be contrarian.

Did the Defendant commit murder? Well, it depends on if the dead guy would have lived another 2 years. That's clown shit. Either the actions in the moment killed a man in the moment or they didn't. Basing the answer on what might have happened some other time in some other place is so idiotic that I'm actually disappointed in myself for typing this many words in my response.

It doesnt depend on how long Floyd may or may not have lived. It depends on whether the knee is the reason, or the likely reason, of his death. This is literally the entire question and the entire case. That the knee killed him. They arent arguing that he died because Chauvin broke the rules, thats secondary to the main argument, that the knee is what killed him.

If the defense could prove that he would be dead regardless of the knee, then Chauvin would walk. At least on the murder charges. If the prosecution could prove that the knee is what killed him, then he's prison bound.

This isnt a contrarian position. This is the entire case.

 

[scorpipede]

I think he had a better chance of living if he had been handled less aggressively. Was there an actual reason for taking him out of the truck and then kneeling on him? A justification of the method?