Workload

[ValleyboyNS]

I have been creeping these forums for about a month now and one thing I have noticed is the thought of overtraining pops up with every question. I think it is definitely overdone. I have only been working out a short time but I think maybe going against the grain here will provoke some discussion as it seems alot of it is the same old thing here. Maybe I am just different but here are my personal experiences.

I started working out June 28 with these stats:
Bodyweight 175
Bench 135x5
Squat 145x5
Deadlift 135x5
Shrugs 225x4
Clean and Press 95x5
Chinups 7

On September 28 they were
Bodyweight 178
Bench 185x6, 205x1
Squat 225x1
Deadlift 315x1
Shrugs 405x2
Clean and Press 150x1
Chin ups 16

Before I started working out I looked up routines, and noticed the incredibly low volume of things like SS, and while I seen people getting stronger it seemed to not increase work capacity, so I called bullshit. I kept searching around and found the site chaosandpain. I would like it but it would seem like advertising or something. Essentially the community on that site advocates high percentages and high work volume and grueling workouts all the time with low reps (singles being a favorite constant). I decided hell give it a try. Eating as suggested, high protein, low carb for several days then a cheat day instead of their windows. I managed to lose fat and gain muscle at the same time (the only gain times being the window of the cheat day).

It is the end of October, right after I did my final maxes I moved and stuff, two weeks off, came back, did two weeks of this and just didn't have the motivation to do it anymore, maxes are the same right now. I decided that I'll take a break from this awhile and run 5/3/1 and then go back to it. But I think people vastly underestimate what the body can be accustomed to do. 25 singles with 95% of my 1rm 3 times a week on clean and press was incredibly common and when I made my best gains on that lift. I was sore but I could always lift more. Most people wouldn't advocate this kind of program for anyone but advanced lifters but I think beginners have as much benefit, and here is why.

The window of beginning training to intermediate one's body adapts to the weightlifting stimulus far better than someone who has been lifting awhile. Thus it is an ideal time to work on upping the weights AND a person's work capacity. Working in the low rep range constantly near maxes at the beginning of the lifting career, as evidence by myself, shows that one can increase their maxes constantly. Also, if people could do labor work for 100 000s of thousands of years, and hunt, forage etc, we haven't devolved to the point where we can only tolerate 7 working sets in a workout 3 days a week.

My workouts were pretty much one to four heavy compound lifts once or twice a day for five to six days a week for a total of 7-10 workout sessions a week. Generally 5-25 singles per exercise with some volume added occasionally (5-10 reps). An example day :
Deads:4 warm up sets, 5 working singles(from 85%-95% max)
Shrugs: 3 warm up sets 5 working sets(from 3rm, for three reps, down to 2 reps)
Clean and Press: 5 singles with 90% 1rm
Second of the day:
Clean and Press: 10 singles 95% 1rm

Important thing: All exercises must be compound. Useful exercises are all that should be done, ones I included: SOHP, push press, clean and press, dips, chins, deadlifts, squats, occasional rows, shrugs, occasional bench.

This level of grueling workout, while I am advocating it, would be to much for more than a month or two for an intermediate trainee in my opinion. However it will help bust plateaus.

I am currently starting 5/3/1 and hope to continue to build on the progress from the chaotic workouts I had. I posted this for discussions sake, I hope it is thought provoking. If you want to see where I got inspiration for this check out the chaos and pain blog, and read all of the entries, it is great information by an eccentric guy. Hopefully this will provoke some more intelligent discussion than what I have seen in my time lurking here.

 

[pliftkl]

I started working out June 28 with these stats:
Bodyweight 175
Bench 135x5
Squat 145x5
Deadlift 135x5
Shrugs 225x4
Clean and Press 95x5
Chinups 7

On September 28 they were
Bodyweight 178
Bench 185x6, 205x1
Squat 225x1
Deadlift 315x1
Shrugs 405x2
Clean and Press 150x1
Chin ups 16

Before I started working out I looked up routines, and noticed the incredibly low volume of things like SS, and while I seen people getting stronger it seemed to not increase work capacity, so I called bullshit.

I'm confused. You argue that SS doesn't help work capacity, yet you seem to be measuring improvement simply by strength improvement (as per your June - September numbers). You're also claiming that the workouts that you did had a lot of emphasis on heavy singles, which seems to be exactly all about strength, and nothing to do with work capacity.

It's worth pointing out that if you'd done SS linear progression for 12 weeks instead of whatever you did, it's likely that your squat would have gained a lot more than 65 pounds (assuming that your initial 1 RM was about 160 based on a 5RM of 145).

 

[Searcher]

If it works then go for it. Your 745lb total based off beginner gains won't turn heads here though.

 

[jacketwrestler1]

shoulda done SS

 

[ValleyboyNS]

Singles were for strength gain, and as I went on for work capacity I would throw in work sets with 10rm. For example a squat workout from august:

3 warm up sets
3x5 with 6rm
5x1 with 90% 1 rm
second work out of the day
5x10

Squat is something I doubt would go up anymore no matter what I did, as I have a crooked leg, so my knee can't line up with my foot straight, calcium build up hints it was broken and set improperly at some point, so I deliberately progressed slow. However my post discusses improving work capacity and strength at the same time at a huge pace in new trainees (myself for example). I posted strength gains to provide legitimacy for this kind of workout. That you could do both at the same time. My workouts went from 20 minutes or so with a few working sets at the start to the end sometimes 40 working sets in 1 hour 45 minutes. Due to negative impact of hormone levels after an hour without fuel or nutrition (cortisol etc), I would often bring a protein shake or fruit to keep myself going.

If we are going to discuss progression of strength and work capacity on SS, could we use a different lift than the squat, something I shouldn`t even be doing with a crooked leg? Deadlifts perhaps. Also pure tonnage moved with say 10x3 and 5x1 (an often favorite on shrugs), is more than 3x5, even if I didn't add in the 5x5 I sometimes did on this exercise.

This also isn't about turning heads, it is more about the overtraining exaggeration.

 

[SuperAlly]

Hopefully this will provoke some more intelligent discussion than what I have seen in my time lurking here.

And this parting shot appeared a good way to provoke intelligent responses?

What you've essentially written is "hey fuckwits you're doing it wrong" to a bunch of guys more experienced and stronger tha you are. You'll be lucky if you get polite responses.

 

[ValleyboyNS]

No, I am not taking potshots at anyone, don't know why people are offended. What I am doing is trying to discuss something besides the rate my workout threads like some in here with four different kinds of curls. I am trying to start a thread about body functions and adapting to stimulus. There are some useful threads in here that are great like fat bar uses etc. I hope I didn't come off as fighting or anything, seems like it did.

 

[Tosa]

Fine, I'll give a intelligent response.

If you look at quality routines, made by people who have tonnes of experience in the Iron game, you'll find a lot of differences...but one common element is that they only have so much heavy work, and they are built around stimulating gains while limiting fatigue.

Examples include: Sheiko, Westside, Wendler 5/3/1, Texas Method, any Bill Starr routine, Christy 5/3/1, the Russian squat routine, ws4sb, the finnish deadlift routine, korte 3x3...I could go on. And the exceptions are either meant only to be used for a limited period of time and for a limited number of lifts, like smolov...and even smolov has regular deload periods. The only true exceptions are routines meant for complete beginners.

Additionaly, the type of programming used in the above routines fits with the science, and the works of Verkoshansky, Zatsiorsky, Bompa, Siff, Medvedyev, Prilepin and so on. And this Science is based on plenty of research and empirical data, and holds true in practice when applied to training.

So while I'm pretty sure everyone here has no problem working hard at the gym, doing to appropriate amount of work, balancing light days with heavy days, including deloads and/or balancing intensity with volume is a central concern.

Also, if people could do labor work for 100 000s of thousands of years, and hunt, forage etc, we haven't devolved to the point where we can only tolerate 7 working sets in a workout 3 days a week.

First, no such thing as devolved, as there's no such thing as more or less evolved.

Second, manual labor, hunting, foraging etc. is different than near maximal lifts at the gym. You might as well say that if people can run a marathon, or play basketball for a couple hours they should be able to do 40 sets at 90%...any way you look at it, it's a silly comaprison.

 

[KnightTemplar]

TS, I'm just a Noob. Tosa is'nt. Listen to him.

 

[ValleyboyNS]

Ok thank you for the response Tosa.

Everyone jumps right at the beginning without reading the whole post. I said it was a beginner and I had moved to a 5/3/1 routine. All I wanted was to discuss the benefits of a high workload, near maximal percentages in beginner gainers. I said you couldn't go maximal all the time. I just wanted to bring up a different method than SS for beginners, which for strength gains, seems to be similar results. You seem to be saying what I said in my beginning post a different way. Beginners can benefit from this kind of work, and upon stalling move to a new routine. Linear only works so long. But I guess I should just not post here, people would rather just not talk about different ways to achieve a goal. I shouldn't have even posted this.

 

[Tosa]

There are beginner routines other than SS. Lke Stronglifts 5x5. There's novice Sheiko. Westside can work, assuming the person either does a tonne of reading, or has help with the routine. Wendler has suggested the 5/3/1 for noobs.

Also, the focus of a beginner routine should be developing technique...using primarily heavy singles isn't the way to do this.

 

[ValleyboyNS]

Heavy singles don't work for form, except for deadlifts, for me anyways. Maybe it's due to being taller. I thought that would be the exercise to do high reps on mainly, but I find over 5 I have difficulty with form, no matter how light.

Most people recommend SS and say nothing else from what I have seen lurking, that was the point of this post. There are other ways...but I guess when I bring up other ways I get crucified.

 

[Searcher]

You're just being a whiny baby. There isn't really any need to recommend anything else. Beginner will grow on anything. I personally started on a split in which I squatted/deadlifted once every five days; I'm still on that split, and never really tried anything else. That isn't squatting 3x a week. Sure SS isn't an end all, but its pretty good for what it does.

The people who start the stupid threads on "how do I get stronger" don't need a "better" routine because they didn't even read the stickies. There's a routine spelled out thats a classic strength routine, and its ignored. For their ignorance, they get starting strength.

 

[Tosa]

The reason for Starting Strength being the "go to" routine for beginners, and suggested so often, is because of the routines simplicity and the extensive amount of "how to" surrounding it. It's not fool proof, since there's no such thing, but it's pretty damn close.

 

[milano]

You are relatively weak for your bodyweight. I think your progress shows that you should have been following a tried and tested beginner program.

 

[ValleyboyNS]

You are relatively weak for your bodyweight. I think your progress shows that you should have been following a tried and tested beginner program.

I am weak that is why I started working out. Progress was decent. I think SS would have had a similar result without increasing the work capacity for a 5/3/1 as quick as it did (doing the Triumvate, and BBB on squat day). Dead increase from 135x5 struggle (152 estimated max) to a real max of 315, or 113lb increase in three months for no gain in bodyweight is decent. I went from not lifting bodyweight to 1.76 bw. 5/3/1 should put it to an even 2 at around 8 months training. Clean and press is my weakest lift, and the progress wasn't the best on that. I should have had a beginner oly program worked into that for sure. I would love to think or believe a tried and true beginner program would have gotten my weak presses(Bench included) up higher than they have but I think results would be similar. Although if I can get better on a different routine, I am open for suggestions. I would love to outgain 113, 65, 53, 43 max gains in the next three months at the same bodyweight. Hell id be happy with 28 on the clean and press because then I could do my bw within six months, happy with that progress. Any help on the presses would be appreciated.

The split is a good program. The best thing I seen in the FAQ that I like is the beginner oly routine. After I reach my goals in dead squat bench c&p(357.5, 312.5, 267.5, 180) I want to give that a try. I was hesitant to do anything other than C&P at the start because those movements seem very touchy, and I would rather have a bit of coaching on them or some experience first.

 

[drew2143]

You're just being a whiny baby. There isn't really any need to recommend anything else. Beginner will grow on anything. I personally started on a split in which I squatted/deadlifted once every five days; I'm still on that split, and never really tried anything else. That isn't squatting 3x a week. Sure SS isn't an end all, but its pretty good for what it does.

This is essentially correct. Your strength levels aren't developed enough where you need an advanced program. Right now you should focus on learning correct form and technique. Put in the work for a couple years and then you can start to think about specialized programming.

 

[pliftkl]

But I guess I should just not post here, people would rather just not talk about different ways to achieve a goal. I shouldn't have even posted this.

Let's not pretend you didn't intend to stir up shit when you posted:

Before I started working out I looked up routines, and noticed the incredibly low volume of things like SS, and while I seen people getting stronger it seemed to not increase work capacity, so I called bullshit.

This translates to "before I knew anything, I decided that you guys had no idea what you are doing, so I called bullshit".

There are slightly politer ways of driving discussion.

There are a lot of conflicting ideas in the S&P space, and I think we're pretty happy to host most of them here. However, if you want to debate something, you might come up with something better than "I tried this for 12 weeks and got my power lifts to a level that is on par with many teenage girls in Texas, therefore it is superior to Starting Strength".

 

[milano]

Listen man, you'll make strength gains on any program if you're a beginner, most of it is just neural adaptations (notice how your bodyweight has barely changed in 3 months). A linear progression program like starting strength (plus eating) is recommended because it enforces good form and your gains will last a lot longer due to the gradual increase in weight and it will take you longer to plateau.

 

[rckvl]

Obviously you have no idea what work capacity even is. You say that Starting Strength doesn't seem to increase work capacity. What do you think happens when people get stronger?