Winning Gear - Whats the secret 'ingredient'

[rskbreaker]

Good luck...keep us posted.

I have a hard time believing there is something so special about their gear that can't be matched with the appropriate care.

Thanks! I'll definitely keep you guys posted.

 

[firstDan]

wow when you see it all apart, it sure doesn't look like it should cost so much.
did you use this headgear? was it painful to take it apart (as in hurt your wallet)?

Don't know if they manufacture their own foam but they use a two layer foam. The foam on the front is a denser foam, almost the same as the foam used in my Everlast and Tapout mma gloves, the foam in the back is soft. I found a guy on Canal street that sells foam and rubber, I'm going to take it to him and see what he says about it.

 

[rskbreaker]

I didn't use this headgear but it was well used by the previous owner, I have the 5000. I got it for 110 bucks, I see it as an investment, I have one of the best headgear patterns in the business. It didn't hurt my wallet so much as my heart, I struggled with the decision to open it up, once I did, I went to town on that bitch.

I always think the same thing when I open up some gear for the first time, that's it? Then when I try to put it back together, that's when I realize serious work went into this gear. Let's not forget as far as cost, we still don't know what kind of foam they are using, leather, glue, thread, laces, and labor. We are not talking Pakistan labor either. It's not a dig a pakistan, they make beautiful products as well, it's just a reality that being made in Japan is going to cost more.

 

[Airdyne23]

Let's not forget as far as cost, we still don't know what kind of foam they are using

In my opinion, this is the money question right here.

Whoever can recreate that foam will be set for life.

 

[nomilkforsanta]

Don't know if they manufacture their own foam but they use a two layer foam. The foam on the front is a denser foam, almost the same as the foam used in my Everlast and Tapout mma gloves, the foam in the back is soft. I found a guy on Canal street that sells foam and rubber, I'm going to take it to him and see what he says about it.

If that does not workout and there is a Major University near you, make an appointment with a Polymer Chemist Professor (usually in the organic chemistry dept.). Make up some bullshit about you are a business major blah blah blah, and see if they can help you out.

One of my old o-chem professors helped some business major make INK for printer cartridges for his business final.

 

[Gonzaginator]

In my opinion, this is the money question right here.

Whoever can recreate that foam will be set for life.

I'm pretty sure Winning patented it, they'd be dumb not to.

And what makes Winning special is the whole package, craftsmanship, quality, fit, the materials they use, all their know how. You can't take one of their ingredients, go to Pakistan and come up with a Winning headgear. All the things I just mentioned will be totally different, it'll be a different product. And it's not like you can come out and say "Hey buy our stuff, we use the same foam Winning uses!". So having the same foam won't help much.

People should be a little creative and come up with something they believe in, not make money off of what other companies came up with and rip them off. It's not gonna work anyway.

 

[Airdyne23]

And it's not like you can come out and say "Hey buy our stuff, we use the same foam Winning uses!". So having the same foam won't help much.

I see what your saying, but I kind of disagree. If someone could clone the foam the rest of the pieces of the puzzle would be easier to put into place.

Look at IMF technology. So many companies use it- Ringside, Ring To Cage, Adidas, Lonsdale, Top Ten, GFG etc.

If someone could make Winning clones that were 100% as protective but a little lower quality in terms of comfort or a bit rougher looking but half the price, I'm sure they'd sell like hotcakes.

Every second thread on here is "I want the benefits of Winning but dont want to pay that much, whats the best substitute?". If you could say "Brand X uses the same padding and is half the price" there'd be a market for that.

Not to mention not having to pay for international shipping from Japan (for US customers).

I agree though that Winning is the total package, but most people are only looking for the hand/knuckle protection.

Just my .02

 

[rskbreaker]

I'm pretty sure Winning patented it, they'd be dumb not to.

And what makes Winning special is the whole package, craftsmanship, quality, fit, the materials they use, all their know how. You can't take one of their ingredients, go to Pakistan and come up with a Winning headgear. All the things I just mentioned will be totally different, it'll be a different product. And it's not like you can come out and say "Hey buy our stuff, we use the same foam Winning uses!". So having the same foam won't help much.

People should be a little creative and come up with something they believe in, not make money off of what other companies came up with and rip them off. It's not gonna work anyway.

Unless they made the foam themselves, I doubt they'd have anything to patent.

I agree they are the total package, but as denno pointed out, some people don't feel the need or want to pay for the total package.

I disagree with your last statement. I could easily point out thousands of copycat products making money off of an original design. What fantasy world do you live in where only original products exist? Look at the headgear your praising, nothing new design wise, lace on the top and back, chin strap, mexican style.

I'm not sure what you mean by "it's not going to work anyway"

 

[Gonzaginator]

Unless they made the foam themselves, I doubt they'd have anything to patent.

Well that's my point, nobody knows what type of foam they're using so obviously Winning must have invented/patented it. Otherwise everybody would be using it, and it would be common knowledge. If you want to know what Winning gear looks like inside all you have to do is check out their website, it's open for everybody to see, they have very detailed pictures of what the gear looks like under all the leather. It's not like they're trying to hide it.

I agree they are the total package, but as denno pointed out, some people don't feel the need or want to pay for the total package.

If the quality doesn't match it's not gonna make a difference. The average price of a glove with crappy foam is what, 50 bucks? You add in the Winning padding and the price goes up to I don't know maybe 80-100 bucks. Now you have a 100 dollar glove with the quality of a 50 dollar glove. What's the point. We've seen that too many times, great gear that looks/feels good but doesn't last. It'll be overpriced, people don't bother buying it even if you manage to get the Winning padding, the chances of that happening are slim to none.

I disagree with your last statement. I could easily point out thousands of copycat products making money off of an original design. What fantasy world do you live in where only original products exist? Look at the headgear your praising, nothing new design wise, lace on the top and back, chin strap, mexican style. I'm not sure what you mean by "it's not going to work anyway"

You're talking about lace systems (you can't patend that stuff anyway) and I'm talking about ripping off the best headgear or gloves in the world. If you think you can do that and get rich off it then good luck. Not sure why you're getting so defensive about it, I'm just trying to talk some sense into you. For some reason people expected unicorns to hop out of the Winning gear when they saw you open it up and now they're shocked and think anybody should be able to just rip it off. Not realizing that there's a bunch of multi-million companies out there that spent a lot of money and time into doing the same exact thing. It's not like they waited for you to show up and cash in...

 

[Airdyne23]

If the quality doesn't match it's not gonna make a difference. The average price of a glove with crappy foam is what, 50 bucks? You add in the Winning padding and the price goes up to I don't know maybe 80-100 bucks. Now you have a 100 dollar glove with the quality of a 50 dollar glove. What's the point..

I still stand by my statement. If you take a cheaper made glove and put Winning foam in it, people will buy heaps of them.

Imagine a Golden Gear/Fairtex glove with Winning padding in it for $100.

No one is going to shell out the extra $250 to get the original Winnings when they could have their cake and eat it too for that price.

I see your point though, but I think you and I and rsk are a level deeper than the average casual gear buyer.

Just my .02

 

[rskbreaker]

Well that's my point, nobody knows what type of foam they're using so obviously Winning must have invented/patented it. Otherwise everybody would be using it, and it would be common knowledge. If you want to know what Winning gear looks like inside all you have to do is check out their website, it's open for everybody to see, they have very detailed pictures of what the gear looks like under all the leather. It's not like they're trying to hide it.


If the quality doesn't match it's not gonna make a difference. The average price of a glove with crappy foam is what, 50 bucks? You add in the Winning padding and the price goes up to I don't know maybe 80-100 bucks. Now you have a 100 dollar glove with the quality of a 50 dollar glove. What's the point. We've seen that too many times, great gear that looks/feels good but doesn't last. It'll be overpriced, people don't bother buying it even if you manage to get the Winning padding, the chances of that happening are slim to none.


You're talking about lace systems (you can't patend that stuff anyway) and I'm talking about ripping off the best headgear or gloves in the world. If you think you can do that and get rich off it then good luck. Not sure why you're getting so defensive about it, I'm just trying to talk some sense into you. For some reason people expected unicorns to hop out of the Winning gear when they saw you open it up and now they're shocked and think anybody should be able to just rip it off. Not realizing that there's a bunch of multi-million companies out there that spent a lot of money and time into doing the same exact thing. It's not like they waited for you to show up and cash in...

To be honest, I don't care if Winning invented or patented(which your assuming) the foam or not. I don't care if I found out what the foam is, it's not going to make or break me. If someone could replicate and make money from using Winning's formula so be it, that's business. You're taking hobbyist small talk and making much over nothing.

A crap glove is crap, just because it's $50 doesn't make it a crappy glove either. Same way a great glove doesn't have to cost $300. It doesn't have to be so black and white. I'm sure plenty of people would pay for a mid range glove or headgear with Winning foam.

I'm not talking about a lacing system, I'm talking about headgear and gloves in general. You came into the thread talking about how people shouldn't rip off other peoples creations. Last time I checked, Winning is making plenty of cash off of things they didn't create. Using your logic Winning wouldn't be in business.

I'm not getting defensive, I just don't understand your logic and I don't exactly know how your talking sense into me. At what point in this thread did I say I finding out what this foam is made of is going to take me to the next level. You're mistaking my curiosity for...Well I don't exactly know what your thinking.

Edit: Another example of my curiosity. Just yesterday, I was sitting in my car trying on a pair of Shevlins. Though they were too small, I love the way the felt, I had to know what they were using as foam. Out comes the seam ripper and at every light I'm hacking away. By the time I got home the secret was out.

 

[rskbreaker]

I still stand by my statement. If you take a cheaper made glove and put Winning foam in it, people will buy heaps of them.

Imagine a Golden Gear/Fairtex glove with Winning padding in it for $100.

No one is going to shell out the extra $250 to get the original Winnings when they could have their cake and eat it too for that price.

I see your point though, but I think you and I and rsk are a level deeper than the average casual gear buyer.

Just my .02

Amen to this!

 

[Gonzaginator]

I still stand by my statement. If you take a cheaper made glove and put Winning foam in it, people will buy heaps of them.

Imagine a Golden Gear/Fairtex glove with Winning padding in it for $100.

No one is going to shell out the extra $250 to get the original Winnings when they could have their cake and eat it too for that price.

I see your point though, but I think you and I and rsk are a level deeper than the average casual gear buyer.

Just my .02

No company/brand/competitor is going to help you make a better glove than they do so you can kick them out of business and steal their money. I don't know what the story was with Fairtex/Golden Gear and if they produced the same stuff, and how, and what Golden Gear had to give up in return to make Fairtex agree to do that. In order for that to happen the company you're working with must be 100% sure that you can't compete with them and they have to get something out of it on top of it (money). You can't just walk up to Reyes and say help me make my own quality gloves. You can't just expect to find somebody that produces quality gear to help you out of kindness. 99.9% of the time you have to get your stuff cheaply made if you start out, somewhere in Pakistan or China, that's the reality. If you walk up to a big company and offer them a deal to produce quality gear for you then you're gonna have to pay for it. They don't do it for free because they have nothing else to do or too much money. None of that just falls into your laps, asking for help isn't gonna get it done. If it was that easy to produce high quality gear everybody would be doing it. And even if you do manage to find somebody that does that at some point, it's only temporary. Once they drop you you'll have to go the other route and get your stuff done in Pakistan/China etc.

Fairtex already has some gloves that are similar to the Winnings in terms of the padding, try the Super Sparring gloves they offer. Quality gloves, and the foam feels the same. They sell for 80 bucks I think and nobody really cares for those. What makes you think a glove of worse quality with the same foam for a higher price is gonna sell like hot cakes? In theory it all sounds nice, steal one of Winnings inventions/Ideas (the padding), produce the glove somewhere and then have a Winning type glove for 50-70 bucks or so and then get rich off it. Trust me there's hundreds of gloves out there that are similar to the Winnings in their own way, whether it's the look, the padding, the fit, whatever. But nobody buys that stuff, it doesn't sell. You'll have to come up with your own stuff/ideas at some point in order to make money. Like I said, it's not like those multi million dollar brands are just waiting for you to show up and be the first one to give this a try. At least that's what my rational thought process would be if I was to produce gear. Starting your own brand and dishing out 10 or 100 thousands of dollars is not something you should just do out of boredom, especially when all that is based on you just ripping off the Winning gloves and come out with a "lite" version, something that has been done a gazillion times already, you're not the first one to try it. And even though there's so many copies of the Winnings, there is not one Winning "lite" boxing glove out there, or a Winning "lite" headgear.

The idea itself sounds nice in theory like I said and if you do find somebody to help you produce quality gear, and if you do manage to get the Winning foam and if you do happen to have the money to get this all started, then by all means go for it. But for that all to come together you need a miracle and I wouldn't count on that, I wouldn't have the balls to put all my money in one basket and hope that it somehow works out. And I'm not saying all that because I'm getting paid by Winning to kill their competiton or because I'm trying to keep people from getting rich, so don't get me wrong.

 

[Gonzaginator]

To be honest, I don't care if Winning invented or patented(which your assuming) the foam or not. I don't care if I found out what the foam is, it's not going to make or break me. If someone could replicate and make money from using Winning's formula so be it, that's business. You're taking hobbyist small talk and making much over nothing.

A crap glove is crap, just because it's $50 doesn't make it a crappy glove either. Same way a great glove doesn't have to cost $300. It doesn't have to be so black and white. I'm sure plenty of people would pay for a mid range glove or headgear with Winning foam.

I'm not talking about a lacing system, I'm talking about headgear and gloves in general. You came into the thread talking about how people shouldn't rip off other peoples creations. Last time I checked, Winning is making plenty of cash off of things they didn't create. Using your logic Winning wouldn't be in business.

We were talking about 2 completely different things and you know that. You're talking about ripping off another glove and create a "lite" version of it. And I'm telling you if it was that easy it would have been done already, you're not the first one to even think about doing that. If if was that easy to get Winning's padding then it would have been out there already, they aren't waiting for you to do it. You can come up with foam that feels similar, but it's not gonna protect the same way, it's not gonna last forever like the Winning foam does.

I'm not getting defensive, I just don't understand your logic and I don't exactly know how your talking sense into me. At what point in this thread did I say I finding out what this foam is made of is going to take me to the next level. You're mistaking my curiosity for...Well I don't exactly know what your thinking.

Edit: Another example of my curiosity. Just yesterday, I was sitting in my car trying on a pair of Shevlins. Though they were too small, I love the way the felt, I had to know what they were using as foam. Out comes the seam ripper and at every light I'm hacking away. By the time I got home the secret was out.

If that's your intention then I guess I was wrong, I was assuming something else. I have done the same to some of my gloves like the Reyes and so on but my intention was never to produce a similar glove, I was just curious. I thought you were thinking about starting your own brand now based on what you've seen in the Winning headgear.

 

[Airdyne23]

Fairtex already has some gloves that are similar to the Winnings in terms of the padding, try the Super Sparring gloves they offer. Quality gloves, and the foam feels the same.

If if was that easy to get Winning's padding then it would have been out there already, they aren't waiting for you to do it. You can come up with foam that feels similar, but it's not gonna protect the same way, it's not gonna last forever like the Winning foam does.

First of all, this is a good discussion and I hope your not taking any offence to what I'm saying. It's all in good fun.

You've contradicted yourself above though, by saying that Fairtex are very similar to Winning and look how well they (don't) sell, then you say there's no way you can copy the foam because it's too unique.

I've used the Fairtex sparring gloves, and yes they are good but they aren't close to Winning IMO.

Bottom line is this, all I'm saying is that IF there were a glove on the market with identical foam to Winning but not as good in other areas AND it only cost $80-$100, then it would outsell real Winning glove that cost 3 times as much.

Do you agree or disagree with the part written in bold? Just curious.

I'm basing this off the number of threads here and also talking to people in the real world who would love to have Winning but don't want to shell out the dough. How many times have you seen someone say "What are the best gloves I can buy that aren't (as expensive as) Winning?".

I'm NOT advocating stealing technology or trying to swindle Winning into giving up their ideas and innovations. I'm talking purely hypothetically here. I'm not in the least bit interested in creating gear at all, only using it.

Good discussion though.

 

[Gonzaginator]

I wasn't contradicting myself. You can have foam that feels the same way, it's not that hard. RSKBreaker mentioned that he found padding in some of his Everlast gloves that had the same density or something. You can easily find foam that is as dense or as soft as the stuff Winning uses, but it's not gonna be the same because Winning uses different materials. One thing their foam does is absorb more energy than anything else, I don't know why. Another thing that makes them the best is how durable it is, it'll literally last forever. It doesn't wear out after 6 months. The foam Fairtex used in the sparring gloves feels just like the Winning stuff, but it's obviously not the same. It doesn't last and it doesn't absorb energy the way Winning gloves do and that's the key. :wink:

Bottom line is this, all I'm saying is that IF there were a glove on the market with identical foam to Winning but not as good in other areas AND it only cost $80-$100, then it would outsell real Winning glove that cost 3 times as much.

Do you agree or disagree with the part written in bold? Just curious.

I agree, if Ringside hired the head of Winning (Kazumichi) and they made a Ringside glove that uses Winning foam and then sell it for 100 bucks a lot of people would buy it. But it's never going to happen and that's basically what I'm saying. Maybe it's because Winning patented it, maybe it's because other brands can't figure it out. Or maybe it's because using the foam would make the glove so damn expensive that it's not worth doing it because in the end the glove would be 200+ bucks and at that point people would rather spend that money and get the real Winning gloves. Who knows. All we know is that it hasn't been done yet and probably won't be done. The big brands have started to focus on inventing their own stuff these days because of that, like Rival, Grant, Everlast, Hayabusa and so on.

 

[Airdyne23]

I wasn't contradicting myself. You can have foam that feels the same way, it's not that hard. RSKBreaker mentioned that he found padding in some of his Everlast gloves that had the same density or something. You can easily find foam that is as dense or as soft as the stuff Winning uses, but it's not gonna be the same because Winning uses different materials..

lol I'm confused. I'm saying forget about if it feels the same. I'm only talking about if it IS the same. 100% identical in every way, not just the way it feels. Protection, longevity- the whole 9 yards.

I agree completely that it's easy to find foam that is similar in feel but not in quality, and that other companies have taken a different path (which I think is a good thing).

Personally, the evolution I'd like to see is 16oz size gloves that weight 8oz or so but are still 100% as protective. I think that would be a nice innovation.

 

[GHVA226]

Personally, the evolution I'd like to see is 16oz size gloves that weight 8oz or so but are still 100% as protective. I think that would be a nice innovation.

I would like to see this too

After someone has perfectly copied the Winnings though LOL

BTW, I just got my pair of 16 oz Winnings today (birthday gift for myself) and the quality is everything everyone else has said.

 

[rskbreaker]

We were talking about 2 completely different things and you know that. You're talking about ripping off another glove and create a "lite" version of it. And I'm telling you if it was that easy it would have been done already, you're not the first one to even think about doing that. If if was that easy to get Winning's padding then it would have been out there already, they aren't waiting for you to do it. You can come up with foam that feels similar, but it's not gonna protect the same way, it's not gonna last forever like the Winning foam does.


If that's your intention then I guess I was wrong, I was assuming something else. I have done the same to some of my gloves like the Reyes and so on but my intention was never to produce a similar glove, I was just curious. I thought you were thinking about starting your own brand now based on what you've seen in the Winning headgear.

Nobody said it would be easy and I'm sure I never claimed to be the first to attempt to do it. I simply said I would inquire about the foam and it would be awesome if someone could take the foam and repackage it. I think you're reading too much into what's being discussed. Most of the thread is jokes, curiosity, hypothetical and wishful thinking. Well, at least that was the case until you came along and ruined everything.

I took the headgear apart for the pattern, not the foam. I was actually looking for somewhere to get foam for shin guards I plan on making and I found someone local, so figured I would ask about the Winning foam while I was there.

 

[jackcell]

Called Winning today and asked if they could tell me exactly what their foam was and their secret recipe was. I give you, the Never before seen... Winning manufacturing process.

You're Welcome.