Will Jon Jones' legacy stand the test of time?

[ocfightfan]

I don't think the asterisk is avoidable. Not because he isn't that damn good, but because of all the completely unnecessary cheating.

 

[Tj Killashaw 1]

Dillashaw man. Sorry realized that's your AV name but almost no title defenses, no long win streaks etc. He could be the 135 GOAT but that title's bar is set very low at the moment.

Could’ve be the 135 goat? That’s the point. That’s like saying Silva can only be 185 lb goat because middleweight was lack luster. Most fighters who are winning fight exclusively in their division. It’s not simply a matter of long reigns it’s a combination of things

With TJ He’s
Got an exceptional win streak (I count Cruz as a win). If you consider that a robbery he’s been undefeated for five years and fought consistently
Been bantamamweight champion twice and only lost it due to the judges giving Cruz a fight he won.
His foot work is insane, he finishes people and he’s great everywhere. He beat and finished Renan Barao twice.

You can have your opinion but in my eyes he’s an all time great. And the main reason he’s not recognized as much as he should be is because he’s a 135er if he were a lightheavyweight going on a crazy run like this it wouldn’t even be questioned

But what 135er or anyone in the lower weight classes would you rather watch over TJ Dillashaw?

 

[TheComputerGuy]

Go yo work and ask about Jon Jones. You will be lucky to find 1 person that has heard of him. He has no legacy. He has very little present. Even ESPN doesn’t talk about MMA

 

[ferrisjso]

Could’ve be the 135 goat? That’s the point. That’s like saying Silva can only be 185 lb goat because middleweight was lack luster. Most fighters who are winning fight exclusively in their division. It’s not simply a matter of long reigns it’s a combination of things

Got an exceptional win streak (I count Cruz as a win). If you consider that a robbery he’s been undefeated for five years and fought consistently
Been bantamamweight champion twice and only lost it due to the judges giving Cruz a fight he won.
His foot work is insane, he finishes people and he’s great everywhere. He beat and finished Renan Barao twice.

You can have your opinion but in my eyes he’s an all time great. And the main reason he’s not recognized as much as he should be is because he’s a 135er if he were a lightheavyweight going on a crazy run like this it wouldn’t even be questioned

But what 135er or anyone in the lower weight classes would you rather watch over TJ Dillashaw?

I mean calling anyone the GOAT means they are only the best out of what came before. If what came before wasn't as good they are GOAT. So that statement is true in both instances. Any GOAT is the goat because there isn't something better. TJ is arguably the 135 GOAT because there hasn't been a fighter who's clearly better than him. But compared to other divisions those who've done the most at 135 have done VERY little.

Here's the issue with all three 135 stars

Cruz looked great and beat a young MM(who at that time wasn't even favored to win the belt he ended up winning at a lower weight class)but his best had 2 UFC fights and 6 total. He was 5-1 with one finish against his lowest ranked opponent. He never lost and was never finished but Cruz didn't do a lot of shit cause he barely fought. 1.5 UFC title defenses. The Cody loss looks worse cause Cody climed the 135 ladder when it was much weaker and it appears now that he's out of the title picture he can't handle the current top contenders.

Barao looked the best at his peak but his peak also was like 2 fights and he got finished twice by TJ. He never held the actual UFC belt which really hurts both Barao and Cruz cause he never figured out who the better 135'er was.

TJ's has two title defenses but one was a repeat of the Barao win(an achievement that lost a lot of value when Barao's career went in the toilet). His other title defense was against a minor promotion champion making their UFC debut who proceeded to lose their next 2 and is 3-5 right now. But yeah he was finished twice and could have easily been finished by Cody. Losing once every five fights and is likely the least dominant champ in UFC history in terms of his abilities relative to his division. No one clearly surpassed him but he never seperated himself from the pack in any sense except the one where he fought the same three people over and over.

Now let's get to the AS and TJ comparison with questioning their resumes. There's different levels to questioning someone's achievements. AS had a great resume, was undefeated in the UFC, had the most wins had the most title defenses they were questioning how much of that was inflated by good matchups and lackluster competition etc(AS didn't get a defense for beating a TUF winner cause the TUF winner missed weight and that would have been his weakest defense). Then there's looking at the resume and it just being considerably worse. TJ was finished twice had no streaks beyond 4 wins. Pretty typical top contender resume who overachieved to win a belt.

Continuing part 2 cause I realize people don't read my long ass posts.

 

[An Uncertain Choice]

Well, Jon Jones did lose to Matt Hughes in 2009

Spoiler

 

[BJpencil]

Would we remember him as the greatest mixed martial artists of all time, or would he always have an asterisk or question mark on his record?

Always there will be the what ifs. What if he could've beat Matt Hamill and remained undefeated. Then he probably would be the best of a all time. Instead we will always wonder if Jones could beat a wrestler like Hamill. Someone who has a sneaky bottom game and underrated intelligence. I wouldn't be surprised if the whole deaf thing was just a scam. Think of all the hours Matt would've had to practice to sign and talk like that. Even the "New England" comment on TUF was probably some sort of deception. Anyway a loss is a loss so that blemish will always be there and GSP avenged his losses and Jones never was able to beat Hamill.

 

[ferrisjso]

Could’ve be the 135 goat? That’s the point. That’s like saying Silva can only be 185 lb goat because middleweight was lack luster. Most fighters who are winning fight exclusively in their division. It’s not simply a matter of long reigns it’s a combination of things

With TJ He’s
Got an exceptional win streak (I count Cruz as a win). If you consider that a robbery he’s been undefeated for five years and fought consistently
Been bantamamweight champion twice and only lost it due to the judges giving Cruz a fight he won.
His foot work is insane, he finishes people and he’s great everywhere. He beat and finished Renan Barao twice.

You can have your opinion but in my eyes he’s an all time great. And the main reason he’s not recognized as much as he should be is because he’s a 135er if he were a lightheavyweight going on a crazy run like this it wouldn’t even be questioned

But what 135er or anyone in the lower weight classes would you rather watch over TJ Dillashaw?

Several important points.

First is calling TJ a "two time" 135 champion. This is the "champ champ" of the 20th century and is even worse for misleading people. Being a champ champ allows someone to get a flashy title and hype for winning one additional fight when it'd take a few as champ to do the same. That's giving extra credit IMO. Being a multiple time champ at the same division though requires one lose the belt. Now fighters get stripped but typically someone loses the belt in the ring or cage which means you are rewarding TJ for losing. Now regaining the belt is nice but to be a two, three or four time champ it typically means you lose at least 1,2 and 3 times and kept getting shots at the title. It is a label that means something negative that sounds awesome(who doesn't want to be a two time champ as opposed to a one time champ?)so is taken as a compliment. In boxing remember them hyping Holyfield going for history as a possible "four time(and eventually five time) HW champ", basically hyping him as a record breaker for being aggressively mediocre. With Ali kind of different cause one of his two belts he lost was cause of outside reasons but when I hear that label used in an argument still makes me cringe.

My view on split/3-2 decisions that are up for interpretation in the lower weight classes is they are basically draws. In the lower divisions the fighters are quicker and do more and close rounds are harder to judge and I just find it hard to be confident in an opinion on who won a competitive round. When people call close decisions robbery's in these decisions or claim to be confident in an opinion on a close fight I tend to not believe them and think both the fans and judges are just subjectively choosing the winner at that point. TJ's wins over Cruz and Assunaco could have went either way. His loss to Assunaco could have went either way too. The main reason those sort of fights go to someone is cause judges are allergic to 10-10 rounds and someone has to get a win as opposed to a loss rather than them having achieved superiority over the loser.

Last want to address the point about TJ being basically undefeated for five years before Henry and why while I agree I don't care and it doesn't matter. Want to make clear I agree people treat the lower weight classes unfairly, the quality of the fights are great. But I ain't saying this cause TJ's small, I have MM as number all time behind Jones. The quality of the fights doesn't mean the best fighter dominated them either. People talk about the UFC failing 125 but they only did promotionally, in the cage, 125 went great. With 135 they fucked up cause they basically created a championship circle as opposed to a championship ladder.

Look at the wikipedia page for "list of ufc champions"(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_UFC_champions). Until Moraes's title shot a few months back, ever since Cruz's injury the UFC basically alternated between the same 3 guys for the title. First it was TJ/Barao/Faber then when Faber and Barao fell off they were replaced with Cruz and Cody. Cruz wasn't replaced by someone new until this year. Only three people I haven't mentioned have ever gotten a title shot after the Cruz injury and one of them Soto was making his UFC debut and hopped the line. So when you say TJ's went undefeated for 5 years he's basically been fighting the same people with the insertion of Assunaco(he was the consistant number 4 guy and never got a title shot) over and over and rarely dominating. UFC 135 division is stacked lots of good competition but that competition has had even less opportunity than 155'ers have had and TJ wouldn't be heavily favored to beat anyone in the current top 10. The same would not be true of a champ in any other division in any other time in MMA history.

 

[Lint]

Nothing withstands the sands of time.

Suppose you kept the belt for 10 years and retired, doesn't matter if undefeated or not.

If you held the division for that long, it's certain you've cleansed it. So people will say that you picked your fights & only fought cans.
Any champion with 3+ defenses and we'll say that this is a new era, much harder, that champion would mop the floor with you.

This.is.Sherdog.

 

[orca]

No, I'd favor Jon to win. Well, not this version actually he is fighting cleanish now. Zero power in your hands with no KO's at HW? Yeah bud, that shit isn't going to work. I think and have said for over a year he is not afraid of DC at HW, he is afraid of everyone else. It would be a GSP take the belt and give it right back stunt. He would be exposed whether he beat HW DC or not. I'm not a hater. I'm the most unbiased poster here. Jon deserves to not be allowed to compete. That's what he deserves. I believe in rules in sports. Imagine if he beats DC and Francis starts talking shit. He would be F'd.

Lol claiming something until proven
Kinda like claiming santa is real

 

[ianferguson]

Would we remember him as the greatest mixed martial artists of all time, or would he always have an asterisk or question mark on his record?

No.

He's mentally weak, cannot handle fame + money. Also juices.

This "sport" will be be dead in less than a decade anyway, so nobody will care.

 

[TheAmericanGazelle]

He will be looked at as either the GOAT or in the cluster of fighters that can reasonably be called the GOAT.

Over time, the power of the scandals will lessen, especially since most fans believe he is extraordinarily talent on a purely natural basis.

See Bonds, Barry.

 

[elwani]

His legend will pulse through the ages.

 

[weaponzero2k2]

Would we remember him as the greatest mixed martial artists of all time, or would he always have an asterisk or question mark on his record?

Jon Jones will be remembered but for ALL THE WRONG REASONS

 

[The Schmoop]

Since he needs dick pills already id say he’s already failed the test of time.

 

[Mohawk Mauler]

I mean cmon even Ali did some time

 

[Troy Nelson]

If he hadn't screwed up so many times he'd be a legend. Unless he's still undefeated in 5 years I view him more as a tragedy. Because of his steroid use his best wins are null.

 

[storeybuckle]

My goat list

Jon Jones
TJ Dillashaw
Anderson Silva
GSP
Fedor
Jose Aldo
Khabib
Nunes
Dometrious Johnson
Tony Ferguson

How did Khabib get on that list?

How could he be on the GOAT list with only 3 top 10 wins ( I’m sure he’ll earn more top 10 wins) ?

I know GOAT lists are subjective but....... all it takes to get on the list in Khabib’s case is 3 top 10 wins?

 

[Squarechoke]

His legacy will stand the test of time. It's just that his legacy is that he's a cheating fuck up.

 

[Tj Killashaw 1]

Several important points.

First is calling TJ a "two time" 135 champion. This is the "champ champ" of the 20th century and is even worse for misleading people. Being a champ champ allows someone to get a flashy title and hype for winning one additional fight when it'd take a few as champ to do the same. That's giving extra credit IMO. Being a multiple time champ at the same division though requires one lose the belt. Now fighters get stripped but typically someone loses the belt in the ring or cage which means you are rewarding TJ for losing. Now regaining the belt is nice but to be a two, three or four time champ it typically means you lose at least 1,2 and 3 times and kept getting shots at the title. It is a label that means something negative that sounds awesome(who doesn't want to be a two time champ as opposed to a one time champ?)so is taken as a compliment. In boxing remember them hyping Holyfield going for history as a possible "four time(and eventually five time) HW champ", basically hyping him as a record breaker for being aggressively mediocre. With Ali kind of different cause one of his two belts he lost was cause of outside reasons but when I hear that label used in an argument still makes me cringe.

My view on split/3-2 decisions that are up for interpretation in the lower weight classes is they are basically draws. In the lower divisions the fighters are quicker and do more and close rounds are harder to judge and I just find it hard to be confident in an opinion on who won a competitive round. When people call close decisions robbery's in these decisions or claim to be confident in an opinion on a close fight I tend to not believe them and think both the fans and judges are just subjectively choosing the winner at that point. TJ's wins over Cruz and Assunaco could have went either way. His loss to Assunaco could have went either way too. The main reason those sort of fights go to someone is cause judges are allergic to 10-10 rounds and someone has to get a win as opposed to a loss rather than them having achieved superiority over the loser.

Last want to address the point about TJ being basically undefeated for five years before Henry and why while I agree I don't care and it doesn't matter. Want to make clear I agree people treat the lower weight classes unfairly, the quality of the fights are great. But I ain't saying this cause TJ's small, I have MM as number all time behind Jones. The quality of the fights doesn't mean the best fighter dominated them either. People talk about the UFC failing 125 but they only did promotionally, in the cage, 125 went great. With 135 they fucked up cause they basically created a championship circle as opposed to a championship ladder.

Look at the wikipedia page for "list of ufc champions"(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_UFC_champions). Until Moraes's title shot a few months back, ever since Cruz's injury the UFC basically alternated between the same 3 guys for the title. First it was TJ/Barao/Faber then when Faber and Barao fell off they were replaced with Cruz and Cody. Cruz wasn't replaced by someone new until this year. Only three people I haven't mentioned have ever gotten a title shot after the Cruz injury and one of them Soto was making his UFC debut and hopped the line. So when you say TJ's went undefeated for 5 years he's basically been fighting the same people with the insertion of Assunaco(he was the consistant number 4 guy and never got a title shot) over and over and rarely dominating. UFC 135 division is stacked lots of good competition but that competition has had even less opportunity than 155'ers have had and TJ wouldn't be heavily favored to beat anyone in the current top 10. The same would not be true of a champ in any other division in any other time in MMA history.

It’s not a negative thing to be a champion in a division more than once. Losing isn’t even a negative thing especially if you come back and win. So what defines a champion a guy who wins the belt and the moment he loses it his reign wasn’t even good? Winning the belt again means you were able to pick yourself up dust yourself off make improvements and become champion again despite a man or woman being better than you on a particular night. In my opinion being champion in a single division more than once is only a testament to being able adapt to changes, and that’s an attribute of a real champion. Yeah having a nice long wring looks nice on paper but it only looks better against a guy who’s won lost and won it again on the condition that you don’t consider what it means to be able to beat someone who’s beaten you before or work your way back up in a game that’s constantly revolving. In my opinion TK didn’t deserve to lose his belt to Cruz that night and was always and in a way still is the lineal bantamweight champion of the world.

 

[Beans & Cornbread]

No. He'll be looked at as a cheat that was able to get away with it.