Law WI Supreme Court strikes down abortion ban

[Sinister]

Should a mother be able to kill a newborn, then? You can put "human children" in quotes as though it's false, but all the arguments used to justify abortion could also be used to defend infanticide.

If an unborn child isn't a human, what species is it?



This is the first time I'm hearing that a moral opposition to murder is exclusive to men. What about pro-life women? Why are you bringing gender into this ("submitting control of their autonomy to the wishes of men") when the argument of whether or not an unborn child is a human life worth protecting transcends gender?



Because dehumanizing a baby is the only way you can justify it. I know. Yet there are still people who will call it "women's health care" and in the same breath claim it's traumatic for the woman having the abortion. Why? If it's a clump of cells, you shouldn't feel any worse about it than getting a tumor removed. And if there's more to it than that, then it's worth having an honest discussion about the morality and legality of it.

No a Mother should not be able to kill a newborn. And no, the same arguments cannot be used to justify infanticide, Roe and Casey both solidified that. False equivalencies gonna false equivalency.

Abortion isnt murder. So the entire framing of your argument is based on an ideological fallacy. I'm arguing your position because you're not a pro life woman, you're deflecting now to that, likely because your argument lacks strength aside from an ideological appeal to emotion.

The last paragraph is another appeal to emotion. "Dehumanizing a baby"...this falls flat on a philosophical level due the entire premise of what it means to be human being subjective. You could mean biologically, you could mean spiritually, you could mean anything. Abortion is traumatic for women for two reasons, first is it's typically an invasive surgery and any surgery is mentally difficult. Second is because of how the mind works. Its the same premise as why men get sad about it. No one ever said it's an easy decision and your characterization of it as that is silly. A tumor or a cyst are also clumps of cells, and having those can be harrowing experiences as well as removing them can be.

I dont think there is any point having a moral and legal discussion with idealogs. If you're position is informed by something static like religion, or biological essentialism. Although admittedly religion became more static over time thanks to Francis Schaeffer and his "pro life" movement which made that term into political language and got the Church involved in politics. Prior to that most religious institutions favored the born and sided largely with autonomy.

 

[Gutter Chris]

Any man who doesnt want a baby should never put his d*ck in a woman. He should stop being a whore

I mean, that's the right wing Christian answer. Otherwise, pay for them babies and shut up about it.

I'm catholic and I agree with this position

Don't use hos as a masturbation device and no woman will ever be able to put the screws to you over child support

Where I think things get screwy is what happens if the father of the potential baby doesn't want an abortion but the woman does ? Obviously you have to support a child you fathered and it's absurd to act like you should be allowed to walk away from the life you created because all you wanted was to bust a nut. I don't think any random man should be able to stop a woman from getting an abortion but I feel like maybe the father should get a bit of say in the matter.

Biology makes this an issue where it's impossible to be fair to all parties involved.

I am pro choice to an extent but I'm grossed out by the glorification of abortion by some radical feminist types I see online just so I'm clear on where I stand.

 

[Seano]

Well you asked a stupid question bud.

Its a fair question. Why do only women get to decide if they will be responsible for the child they create?

 

[Seano]

I'm catholic and I agree with this position

Don't use hos as a masturbation device and no woman will ever be able to put the screws to you over child support

Where I think things get screwy is what happens if the father of the potential baby doesn't want an abortion but the woman does ? Obviously you have to support a child you fathered and it's absurd to act like you should be allowed to walk away from the life you created because all you wanted was to bust a nut. I don't think any random man should be able to stop a woman from getting an abortion but I feel like maybe the father should get a bit of say in the matter.

Biology makes this an issue where it's impossible to be fair to all parties involved.

I am pro choice to an extent but I'm grossed out by the glorification of abortion by some radical feminist types I see online just so I'm clear on where I stand.

Its not really a position, its avoiding having one because the hypocrisy is kind of unavoidable. Obviously we'd be better off if irresponsible people didn't breed. But they do. So simply reaffirming you think they shouldn't isn't really an answer.

 

[Sinister]

I'm catholic and I agree with this position

Don't use hos as a masturbation device and no woman will ever be able to put the screws to you over child support

Where I think things get screwy is what happens if the father of the potential baby doesn't want an abortion but the woman does ? Obviously you have to support a child you fathered and it's absurd to act like you should be allowed to walk away from the life you created because all you wanted was to bust a nut. I don't think any random man should be able to stop a woman from getting an abortion but I feel like maybe the father should get a bit of say in the matter.

Biology makes this an issue where it's impossible to be fair to all parties involved.

I am pro choice to an extent but I'm grossed out by the glorification of abortion by some radical feminist types I see online just so I'm clear on where I stand.

Nice post.

See we might have some fundamental disagreements on this issue but it's all about understanding. I get the cringe of abortion as a political cudgel by radical feminists. However you gotta keep in mind that this was a response to the Historical context of women's rights. Hiw does every hierarchical thinker approach the idea that women should be politically less viable than men? How does Matt Walsh do it? Or his more evil twin Joel Webbon I think his name is? How do non-religious biological essentialist do it?

Its almost always approached by way of attacking sexual and reproductive freedom. Women are wise to it. They're not all going to buy into the idea that you're actually protecting them by removing their legal protections. But the effort to do so garners a very "in your face" response that I also dont care for.

I posted a story earlier where I was actually the guy who wanted a baby with a girlfriend who would have aborted it. But honestly what does my sadness have to do with her body? What if I wanted a baby but she didnt, and yet I took off the condom anyway? Is that ok? What if my belief is that life begins at arousal? Does that justify my actions after that? I cant get with a dude being sad being a premise by which a woman is legally required to have a symbiotic relationship with another organism.

You're right, it is unfair. However like I also said earlier, my wife went through 27 months of pregnancy and the pains of delivery of 3 kids to bring our Sons into this World. And yet I cant imagine relegating her entire being to that, or limiting her legal protections because muh feelings. I think it's an accurate statement that it men had to carry the babies abortions would be available at every tire center and pills would be sold right next to the d*ck pills at every gas station. That they're not is because, as a society, we define a woman based on what her womb is or isn't doing and little else.

 

[Gamer2k4]

No a Mother should not be able to kill a newborn. And no, the same arguments cannot be used to justify infanticide, Roe and Casey both solidified that. False equivalencies gonna false equivalency.

And both Roe and Casey were overturned in 2022, so there's no point in bringing them up. If all you're arguing is that abortion is legal, that's meaningless, because it was never a legal argument to begin with. Slavery was legal at one point, too. The debate is whether or not it's MORAL, not whether or not the law says it's allowed.

Abortion isnt murder. So the entire framing of your argument is based on an ideological fallacy. I'm arguing your position because you're not a pro life woman, you're deflecting now to that, likely because your argument lacks strength aside from an ideological appeal to emotion.

The last paragraph is another appeal to emotion. "Dehumanizing a baby"...this falls flat on a philosophical level due the entire premise of what it means to be human being subjective. You could mean biologically, you could mean spiritually, you could mean anything.

Okay, then let's define our terms. Since you insist that an unborn child isn't human, what about it, to you, makes it less human than one that's been born?

My definition is that a human is an organism with human DNA that, if healthy and nourished, will one day grow to an adult person. Obviously things could disrupt that (a terminal illness, starvation, getting hit by a car), but those are abnormalities that are understood to be deviations from the normal life cycle, not unique or distinct forms of life themselves.

Abortion is traumatic for women for two reasons, first is it's typically an invasive surgery and any surgery is mentally difficult. Second is because of how the mind works. Its the same premise as why men get sad about it. No one ever said it's an easy decision and your characterization of it as that is silly. A tumor or a cyst are also clumps of cells, and having those can be harrowing experiences as well as removing them can be.

Yes, they're harrowing because of the implications for your own health and life if something goes wrong, and once the operation is complete, I suspect a lot of that anxiety vanishes instantly. I don't think there are a lot of women getting abortions who feel perfectly fine about it once the operation is over.

I dont think there is any point having a moral and legal discussion with idealogs. If you're position is informed by something static like religion, or biological essentialism. Although admittedly religion became more static over time thanks to Francis Schaeffer and his "pro life" movement which made that term into political language and got the Church involved in politics. Prior to that most religious institutions favored the born and sided largely with autonomy.

I haven't mentioned religion once. I'll admit I am appealing to a universal sense of morality that all healthy humans should have (that killing innocents is wrong), but if someone doesn't have a moral compass, no argument like that is going to be effective anyway. I guess I'm holding onto hope that you believe there are times when it's wrong to kill people, and that, by way of reason, I can convince you to expand that morality to the unborn as well as the born.

 

[Kingz]

Baby murder is abhorrent

 

[Sinister]

Baby murder is abhorrent

It's a good thing no one on here advocates that.

 

[oldshadow]

I'm gonna wager you didnt look much deeper than that and used this to perpetuate the trope that women simply use abortion as birth control. This data is from surveys based on self-reporting. Do you know what one of the top reasons given for seeking abortions is on surveys or medical applications? "None" Given how much r@pe and incest goes unreported, that should clue you in that it might be larger than that. However, even if we entertain that what you're saying is true, it doesnt make the argument less valid because that's just addressing one aspect. Abortions should be legal to a certain time-frame because a zygote is not a viable human being. Roe should have remained intact, and what we have now is worse. A lot worse.

I said they should be available to a time limit. The radical left view is its not a "baby" until they cut the cord and you should be able to abortion until then.

So yes with restrictions. It was pushed back to the States because it was legally correct to do so.

If a national abortion law is needed then its up to congress to pass and the president to sign one.

 

[Big Nasty Edison]

Its a fair question. Why do only women get to decide if they will be responsible for the child they create?

Because its inside their womb. Its not that complicated.

Where's that same energy when it comes to the epidemic of dead beat dads?

 

[Satanical Eve]

I figured I'd get these sorts of answers from weirdo, effeminate liberals. If a woman can just murder their child under the guise of 'personal rights,' then why can't a guy walk away from a kid he didn't want to have? Why is paternity fraud not a crime? Why is it that all of these laws are only made to 'protect' women and not men or children?

 

[HereticBD]

Where's that same energy when it comes to the epidemic of dead beat dads?

Who the fuck is standing up for deadbeat dads, the same way they do for women who kill their babies? Seriously, where are the marches and the people in congress sticking up for "Deadbeat Dad Rights"?

Find a better analogy.

 

[Sweater of AV]

Good news.

 

[Satanical Eve]

Who the fuck is standing up for deadbeat dads, the same way they do for women who kill their babies? Seriously, where are the marches and the people in congress sticking up for "Deadbeat Dad Rights"?

Find a better analogy.

I have to ask since you are against abortion is it for any kind or do you make exceptions for rape and the viability of the mother surviving birth?

 

[HereticBD]

I have to ask since you are against abortion is it for any kind or do you make exceptions for rape and the viability of the mother surviving birth?

Definitely have some exceptions, like the ones you mentioned. The VAST majority abortions are done out of convenience, though. I don't agree with it being used as a form of contraception. That shit is downright evil.

 

[Big Nasty Edison]

Who the fuck is standing up for deadbeat dads, the same way they do for women who kill their babies? Seriously, where are the marches and the people in congress sticking up for "Deadbeat Dad Rights"?

Find a better analogy.

Plenty of "if women are more responsible they won't need abortions" type comments all over this topic but aren't applying that to dudes in here. All I see from conservatives on here is about welfare queens, sluts getting abortions etc. So no, I don't need a better analogy.

 

[HereticBD]

Plenty of "if women are more responsible they won't need abortions" type comments all over this topic but aren't applying that to dudes in here.

Okay, I, a conservative, applies it to dudes. Don't bareback it if you ain't got the money or commitment to raise a child. Now get a better analogy, mind reader.

Like I said, NOBODY is marching in the streets for the rights of those dudes. You just imagine it.

 

[Big Nasty Edison]

Okay, I, a conservative, applies it to dudes. Don't bareback it if you ain't got the money or commitment to raise a child. Now get a better analogy, mind reader.

Like I said, NOBODY is marching in the streets for the rights of those dudes. You just imagine it.

Nah conservatives just stand outside women's clinics calling em sluts, sinners, and whores. All the malice in the abortion argument is pointed at the women getting them, never about the dudes who ran off. Then got folks up in here crying "what about men??"

But what should I expect out of a political ideology that takes most its talking points from a religion where women are the cause of worldly sin, and should always be subservient to men?

Edit
Also I think you should find a better analogy. No one is holding rallies for deadbeat dads because they aren't losing their body autonomy or rights. Women are.

 

[Sinister]

Nah conservatives just stand outside women's clinics calling em sluts, sinners, and whores. All the malice in the abortion argument is pointed at the women getting them, never about the dudes who ran off. Then got folks up in here crying "what about men??"

But what should I expect out of a political ideology that takes most its talking points from a religion where women are the cause of worldly sin, and should always be subservient to men?

Most of those religious lunatics who actually enact violence on abortion providers and constantly threaten them are also part of the "men's rights" circles of thought considering religion is centered around patriarchy. That guy either doesnt know what the f*ck he's talking about, or its yet another example of male insecurity overruling reality. Most pro life conservative pundits also incessantly whine about the diminishment of men's "say so"...and constantly vehemently criticize the very notion of women making their own f*ckin decisions as a general concept. Charlie Kirk does it, he literally just told a teenage girl, on camera, that she and all the other teenage girls present should go to college to meet a husband. Candace Owens does it. Webbon does it even worse, he and Walsh dont even think women should be allowed to vote, and sexual/reproductive freedom is at the center of why all those d*ckheads think that.

 

[IanEdwards]

Nah conservatives just stand outside women's clinics calling em sluts, sinners, and whores. All the malice in the abortion argument is pointed at the women getting them, never about the dudes who ran off. Then got folks up in here crying "what about men??"

But what should I expect out of a political ideology that takes most its talking points from a religion where women are the cause of worldly sin, and should always be subservient to men?

Edit
Also I think you should find a better analogy. No one is holding rallies for deadbeat dads because they aren't losing their body autonomy or rights. Women are.

The right: 'The nuclear family is the best way to raise a child, every child needs a mother and a father'

also the right, when a pregnant woman who has been deserted by the father decides to have an abortion because she doesn't feel she can cope with the child and the child's life chances would be poor: 'slut shouldn't get pregnant, abortion is murder'

also the right, when single mothers who lack husbands to help provide for their child claim benefits: 'welfare queens milking the system'